IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[book-thinker]

Wishing everyone a blessed Thanksgiving!

 

[MsBetsy]

Wishing everyone one a blessed Thanksgiving!

Thank you, and Happy Thanksgiving to you, too!

We had a storm last night and this morning. The power went out but came back just in time to put my pies in the oven.

Thinking of Chloe's family and hoping they have the strength to get through the holidays. I can't imagine what they are going through right now.
I hope they have lots of family and friends to support them.

 

[MsBetsy]

Delete, double post

 

[justice4allnow]

That is a very large number of addresses, within a not very large physical area. Many moves.

 

[justice4allnow]

That is a very large number of addresses, within a not very large physical area. Many moves.

I was replying to Stinalyn's post, #999, 29 different addresses for Sam.
Justice for Chloe.

 

[vallie]

Happy Thanksgiving. I hope the family puts an empty high chair next to grandpa R.I.P. Chloe

 

[Montrealaise]

I was replying to Stinalyn's post, #999, 29 different addresses for Sam.
Justice for Chloe.

Wow. 29? That's a lot of moves. I wonder why he moved so often - non-payment of rent?

 

[they'll get you]

Can anyone tell me why the necessity for the family to go so public?

They are not appealing to the public for a child missing.
So what’s so important for public opinion?
Is it Winkleman looking for worldwide publicity?

 

[they'll get you]

Double post.

Grrrrrr

 

[justice4allnow]

I don't understand why Chloe "couldn't touch" the bottom window. Surely, she wasn't tall enough to not be able to stand beneath the railing, so why was she unable to touch the window? Grandpa would have had to bend over, stoop, kneel, or sit on the floor at Chloe's level for them to actually touch the lower windows, and I suspect Grandpa didn't want to do this, so he scooped Chloe up to see the view at his eye level.

He stated that she was looking out of the window, standing on the floor. He didn't state that she was trying to bang on the glass. She appeared to have been content looking out of the window. He said that it was hard for him to reach the glass (his girth limited movement perhaps?)? So then he decided to pick her up, not because she asked to be picked up, nor did she ask to bang on the glass. And he decided to place her on the thin, round handrail. And the CBS reporter says that Sam then held her OVER the railing. And Sam says he held her with one arm! The film will show how close she was to the outside, 150 feet above the concrete pier. Incredibly reckless, none of it makes any sense. If the glass had been there, did he plan to just mush her body up against it, unsupported?? I guess so, that's why he looked for her on the floor.
Justice for Chloe.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Happy Thanksgiving. I hope the family puts an empty high chair next to grandpa R.I.P. Chloe

Can you even imagine their Thanksgiving? I wouldn't have him in my house.

 

[justbreathe]

I think I can imagine what happened. He had one arm loosely around her waist while she was sitting on the handrailing, and leaned over the handrailing reaching for the “glass” with his other hand and simultaneously pushed her behind off the railing. Because he was basically just balancing her on the rail and once she lost that support she just went down. Her legs/feet must have already been on or over the window sill for her to not fall in between the railing and window. I think he basically pushed her out trying to lean over after he sat her up there. Thought there was glass. Smh

 

[vallie]

I have a feeling the missing minutes in the cctv tape will show him swinging or "playfully dangling or rocking her where she is outside the window, why would those descriptions have been reported in the press? because they were made before a lawyer was hired . this inclines me to believe those statements were truthful rather than what looks good for their case, criminally and civily

 

[MsMarple]

I think I can imagine what happened. He had one arm loosely around her waist while she was sitting on the handrailing, and leaned over the handrailing reaching for the “glass” with his other hand and simultaneously pushed her behind off the railing. Because he was basically just balancing her on the rail and once she lost that support she just went down. Her legs/feet must have already been on or over the window sill for her to not fall in between the railing and window. I think he basically pushed her out trying to lean over after he sat her up there. Thought there was glass. Smh

IMO thinking about the physics, I believe if Chloe had her feet on the windowsill it would be less likely for her to fall forward if they were planted against the sill. If her feet were over the windowsill she'd have less leverage but maybe enough to prevent her falling forward because her body would more or less be at a 90 degree angle to the sill.

If her legs were dangling below the railing then she'd in essence be "top heavy" and moving her upper body forward to <cough> get a better view would be much more likely to propel her forward. But that would be determined by the length of her leg from the knee to the hip plus whatever height difference there is between the railing and the bottom of the window (the sill) plus the length of her knee to her feet and adding the velocity of her body moving forward.

What we do know though is that whatever position/angle she was in was enough to propel Chloe out the window as she leaned forward. So yes, it's likely SA leaning forward also helped Chloe to lean forward. IOW, he may have pushed her out as he leaned in to "get a better view."

I don't believe SA did it on purpose but I'm quite convinced he ignored common sense, which to me means he may or may not have known the window was open. Winkleman is claiming that there's no way to tell definitively whether he knew or not so all we can do is go by SA's own testimony.

I disagree. I believe between the video, expert forensics and testimony and eyewitness testimony SA's actions will be discernible.

 

[10ofRods]

Grandpa says two things that I find contradictory: that she slipped out of his arms so he looked for her on the floor and did not see her. He also says he watched every second of her fall from the window (that's when he understandably starts crying). He may have been glancing around in panic, but the way he tells the story he sounds as if he is both staring around at the floor in disbelief and watching her hit the deck (simultaneously). That may be how it seemed to him. His retelling is very dramatic. My point is that I'm not sure how believable he'll be at a deposition or trial. I need to watch the video again, but I was left with the impression that he leaned over the railing, she fell, he watched her fall.

It's such an awful tragedy. I expected him to mainly say how awful he felt and how sorry he was, but he mostly focused on how much trauma he has himself experienced. I assume he's seen the video by now.

 

[MsBetsy]

I have a feeling the missing minutes in the cctv tape will show him swinging or "playfully dangling or rocking her where she is outside the window, why would those descriptions have been reported in the press? because they were made before a lawyer was hired . this inclines me to believe those statements were truthful rather than what looks good for their case, criminally and civily

I thought they said there were 30 seconds that CBS didn't see of the video. How long is the entire video?
I wonder if they were referring to the time it took for Chloe to walk over to the window or just when he lifted her up and lifted her over the railing.
The video tells the story of exactly what happened, and I don't think we will ever know until it is revealed or this goes to trial.
Does the grandfather have a lawyer yet?
I haven't seen any statements from him or her at all.
When is the next court date?

Imo

 

[they'll get you]

Grandpa says two things that I find contradictory: that she slipped out of his arms so he looked for her on the floor and did not see her. He also says he watched every second of her fall from the window (that's when he understandably starts crying). He may have been glancing around in panic, but the way he tells the story he sounds as if he is both staring around at the floor in disbelief and watching her hit the deck (simultaneously). That may be how it seemed to him. His retelling is very dramatic. My point is that I'm not sure how believable he'll be at a deposition or trial. I need to watch the video again, but I was left with the impression that he leaned over the railing, she fell, he watched her fall.

It's such an awful tragedy. I expected him to mainly say how awful he felt and how sorry he was, but he mostly focused on how much trauma he has himself experienced. I assume he's seen the video by now.

He would NOT have been able to see ‘all the way down’ unless he had his head out that window looking straight down. It’s impossible.

 

[al66pine]

Possible Settlement? Likely/Unlikely to Help G'father?

....I could be wrong, but I suspect that they are thinking that if the Company takes responsibility, it will take the focus of the grandfather and it may be used as evidence that he was not at fault.
And no, the lawsuit alone will not keep him from going to prison. But they may believe it will help their case... They seem to be doing everything they can to protect him. I doubt they want to see him spend any time in prison.
Imo

@MsBetsy sbm bbm ^ That's what they may think, but whether or not a lawsuit is filed, parents & cruiseline (hypo) settlement very, very, very likely would not be admissible as evidence in G'pa's crim trial.

Why? If parents & cruiseline reach an agreement, very, very, very likely the Settlement and Release document would (1) explicitly deny responsibility for any role in events leading to Chloe's death and (2) contain a confidentiality clause, prohibiting both parties from making the document or any terms public. So (hypo) settlement would not help G'pa stay out of the slam. jmo.

 

[they'll get you]

Is it usual the footage is released?

 

[justice4allnow]

The attorney Winkleman's statements are contradictory and inflammatory. His insistence from the beginning that it happened in a children's play area, for instance. He maintained that Chloe wanted to bang on the glass (we've learned recently that it was Sam who wanted to bang on the glass and decided to lift her to do that). His frequent assertions that the windows did not meet safety guidelines. And his statement that Chloe was on the rail 5 seconds, when the CBS reporter told us it was around 25 seconds. Anyone else noticed any other mis-statements by Winkleman? I'm not sure why he is doing this, it just makes him look unreliable. He appears to be trying to stir up sentiment against Royal Caribbean but instead it seems to be backfiring on him.