IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[LietKynes]

Have to put this out there as it's a viable consideration.... Did S.A. indulge in any 'weed', other narcotics, or was he fond of prescription meds ?
Don't want to give him excuses.
But was he thinking with an unclouded mind or was he drifting in la-la land ?

 

[oviedo]

Now that shows nothing below. Seems like it leads to the outside of the ship? Is that the exact window? Who took this?

It’s a video posted by a cruiser - they took it showing the layout of deck 11 - which is similar to all of the ships I’ve been on - the still photo is the view outside the window - they were docked at the pier in PR and she landed on an awning first before hitting the pier

 

[oviedo]

My DH was wondering if he could have sneaked some alcohol on board in his luggage or something?

There are whole threads about sneaking alcohol on board - it can be done easily I’ve done it myself - bags are delivered to your room throughout the afternoon - I know ships are cracking down now even checking water bottles that appear sealed
JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

And brought some to SA.

I don't know about that. I'm sure RCCL has its own policies about drink purchases for others, and I haven't cruised with RC for quite a while. DH and I mostly sail on Princess, and guests cannot purchase alcoholic beverages for someone who is not present at the time of the purchase. Hopefully, someone who sails regularly on RCCL can weigh in on this.

 

[oviedo]

I read this post and said to myself, "Maybe I'll change my mind". Then I looked to see who wrote it. I remember your posts from the Frazee case. I guess what I'm seeing now is that he wouldn't take a breathalyzer. Now THAT doesn't sound real good.
But I'm still a believer in the windows being closed. Wasn't that a child's play area? There's people drinking, vision problems, distractions, medications that could affect alertness, arthritis, human error, too many variables. And you don't necessarily have to be old to have that stuff, although it doesnt help any.
I remember the worst thing I ever did. I had a baby in a car seat coming out of the doctor's office. I vaguely remember setting down something. I must have let go of my toddler's hand. She took off running down an enclosed corridor towards the car lane. Freaked me out. I couldn't catch her. Fortunately, no cars coming.
But something needs to change in safety on cruises imo... too many accidents. Of course, I consider myself 'The Safety Director' of my family.
Opinion subject to change.

Perhaps cruisers just need to read and follow the rules
Royal Caribbean's guest conduct policy, last revised Nov 2018 prior to the incident. The policy that all guests receive a copy of clearly states on the top of Page 2:

"Unsafe Behavior: Sitting, standing, lying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted
——
Of course this is a man who ignores the simple rule of buckling your seat belt / his court violations were posted on thread 1 and I believe in the media thread

 

[sl222]

I notice several people have started participating who don't know the basic info. It's well worth your time to read what everyone here has spent hours of time carefully putting in here to piece this together. If you are interested in this case you'll find it interesting reading. We have covered everything, seriously. If you even read half of it you'll become really informed on what is known so far. (Please, I'm begging you lol.)

 

[sl222]

Think defense said nothing inconsistent with what my client told me. Would have to go back if post available. I just remember he wasn’t very convincing the way he said it.

True. Double negative of sorts. That's less convincing.

 

[MsFacetious]

I think after standing her on the handrailing, he had her ride his forearm exactly like in the Charlie Brown picture and then sat her on the handrailing with his arm loosely around her just balancing her. He leaned forward with her in front of him, pushed her behind off the railing, she slipped through his arm that wasn’t really holding on to her at all and disappeared out the window. Tragic.

This is how I have always envisioned it as well.

This does not look a very safe way to hold a child. Most of Chloe's weight is above Grandpa's grip. If Chloe suddenly squirmed or turned to look at something, Grandpa wouldn't have been able to prevent her from falling.

Clearly, he could not prevent it.

As a cautious parent, would you have stood your 18month old child on that guard rail? Would you have sat your child on that rail, alongside an open 11th story window? And then leaned out that window yourself, to look below?

I am another safety conscious person. I think that's common knowledge at this point. My kids rear face in the car until they outgrow the seat (youngest is 4.5.) I wouldn't take a toddler on a cruise without wearing them myself.

I totally understand that everyone has moments as parents. Toddler gets out of your sight, away from you in a parking lot, or you forget to buckle their car seat.

However, Chloe's death to me this goes way beyond a texting while driving or something like that. The reason being that it isn't a daily situation. There is no comfort level here that you are used to doing this and are capable of it. You should absolutely have your guard up all the time in a strange situation like that.

Now that shows nothing below. Seems like it leads to the outside of the ship? Is that the exact window? Who took this?

It is the same ship and the same deck.
We can't prove it's the same window but it has to be close.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

There are whole threads about sneaking alcohol on board - it can be done easily I’ve done it myself - bags are delivered to your room throughout the afternoon - I know ships are cracking down now even checking water bottles that appear sealed
JMO

Again, I can't speak to current RCCL alcohol policies, but on Princess, adult passengers are permitted to bring onboard one bottle of wine or Champagne without charge. Additional bottles will be charged a $15 corkage fee. Bottles of alcohol seen in luggage scans during embarkation can be confiscated until the end of the cruise. Cruise lines make a lot of money on alcohol sales and don't want guests bringing their own libations onboard. All-inclusive beverage packages are quite popular now with most cruise lines, so many folks take advantage of the reduced pricing.

 

[Alethea]

Ok. Here’s what the media reports is on the video:

“The video, which did not include audio, shows Chloe wearing a white hat, her swimsuit and swim shoes, running across the pool area with her granddad a few feet behind, ABC reported.

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.

Family attorney Michael Winkleman said Anello repeatedly screamed that he thought the window was closed.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...dfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/amp/

If the rail was as close to the window as @BetteDavisEyes ? posted then he indeed leaned out through the open window. If he still thought it was closed he was wasted.

Reckless homicide would seem appropriate if he actually put his head out where the window would be.

And the video appears to show him leaning forward, then putting her on the rail standing up and leaning forward, then backing up and sitting her on the rail, then leaning forward again. So not fast.

Reading just your description of the media's description of the video, my first thought is it sounds like he let her lean out of the window to see the port and she slipped out of his hands. Maybe there was a breeze and she leaned into it - obviously, as a baby, not knowing it's dangerous to lean far out of a window 115 feet in the air - and he just wasn't holding her.

Is it negligent to let a baby lean out of a cruise ship window? Yes. Could he have been taking some sort of medication that led to a slow reaction time, shaky hands, or poor/delayed judgment that prevented him from firmly holding the baby to prevent her from slipping/falling? Likely.

He might have made up this whole story to avoid saying to the baby's parents "I stupidly let her lean out of the window and she slipped out of my hands."

It reminds me of the absolute uproar when Michael Jackson held his baby over the balcony railing. Luckily for him, the baby didn't fall. But it's the same type of inexcusable gross negligence on the part of the caretaker you see here.

And Gitana you're absolutely right - ships are surrounded by railings where if you leaned over or held your baby over the edge, you or your baby could fall to your death. It happens occasionally. Cruise ships can try to make their ships safe but they can't idiot-proof them.

Poor Chloe

 

[oviedo]

I don't know about that. I'm sure RCCL has its own policies about drink purchases for others, and I haven't cruised with RC for quite a while. DH and I mostly sail on Princess, and guests cannot purchase alcoholic beverages for someone who is not present at the time of the purchase. Hopefully, someone who sails regularly on RCCL can weight in on this.

If you have a drinks package you may only buy one drink at a time however some bartenders (pool area in my experience) will make drinks for all that you have cards for and you just sort of point to the people - others are more strict and you have to get the people in front of them / but when I’ve cruised without the drinks package (meaning I pay as I go) I could get as many drinks as I could carry and entire buckets of beer - you aren’t supposed to share and if you are caught you are in trouble - JMO
ETA we get two bottles regular size of wine or champagne per cabin - I’ve never been charged a corking fee to bring it in the main dining room - I only bring super special wines but on a cruise a few years ago we had 4 in our cabin and we each brought 2 bottles in our checked bags and one of mine was organic vodka - bottle screened the same as wine

 

[Aydrianna523]

There is separation between the play area and where the windows are

Good video. I can see it better now.
So baby was standing (or sitting?) on the wood rail. They leaned over to look and she fell.
The wood rail appears to be there to keep people back away from the window....

 

[oviedo]

Good video. I can see it better now.
So baby was standing (or sitting?) on the wood rail. They leaned over to look and she fell.
The wood rail appears to be there to keep people back away from the window....

Exactly

 

[Aydrianna523]

It's still really hard, though, for me personally to fault the grandfather. I know. I know. That's not the way the law works. And I do basically think people aren't careful in their daily going about.
But there's the aspect (in the back of my mind) that so many Grandpas don't get involved at all in their grandkids lives. You know... the cold turkey types. So you have here a grandparent who appears to enjoy being a part of Chloe's life. And what happens?!
It's probably legal negligence, but it's hard for me to NOT give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[katydid23]

Good video. I can see it better now.
So baby was standing (or sitting?) on the wood rail. They leaned over to look and she fell.
The wood rail appears to be there to keep people back away from the window....

as to the bolded^^^---EXACTLY.

That railing is supposed to guard the open areas, and remind people to proceed with caution.

Apparently Grandfather decided it would be a great place to prop up a tiny toddler, and ignore the rules completely.

 

[oviedo]

It's still really hard, though, for me personally to fault the grandfather. I know. I know. That's not the way the law works. And I do basically think people aren't careful in their daily going about.
But there's the aspect (in the back of my mind) that so many Grandpas don't get involved at all in their grandkids lives. You know... the cold turkey types. So you have here a grandparent who appears to enjoy being a part of Chloe's life. And what happens?!
It's probably legal negligence, but it's hard for me to NOT give him the benefit of the doubt.

The real problem for me is he won’t admit what he did and he and the family are blaming RCCL rather than the source - personally I’d rather have a non-involved grandparent and my child alive but that’s just me
JMO

 

[katydid23]

It's still really hard, though, for me personally to fault the grandfather. I know. I know. That's not the way the law works. And I do basically think people aren't careful in their daily going about.
But there's the aspect (in the back of my mind) that so many Grandpas don't get involved at all in their grandkids lives. You know... the cold turkey types. So you have here a grandparent who appears to enjoy being a part of Chloe's life. And what happens?!
It's probably legal negligence, but it's hard for me to NOT give him the benefit of the doubt.

That's what makes this a great place for discussion---we are all different.

I agree with you that many grandpas don't make an effort to get involved. And it is nice when they do.

But in doing so, they need to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their involvement. That means watching the children, caring for them and safeguarding them.

I don't give him the benefit of the doubt because he himself created the horribly dangerous situation for this sweet baby girl. She would have been fine standing up against the bottom window and looking at the view below.

There was no need at all for her to be swept up into that top window ledge. She was too young to even need to look out that window for any reason. She doesn't even understand. She would have been happy as can be just looking out the bottom window at the big blue ocean wAves.

His 'enjoyment' was at the cost of her life. He used ZERO common sense. That makes me very angry. He literally ruined his family's life by being so reckless and careless. It is heartbreaking.

 

[Aydrianna523]

The real problem for me is he won’t admit what he did and he and the family are blaming RCCL rather than the source - personally I’d rather have a non-involved grandparent and my child alive but that’s just me
JMO

I suppose it's true. I suppose this story touches me because I help with my grandkids. I worry about accidents. You know the typical...stop running in the house, stop jumping on the bed, hold my hand crossing the parking lot, don't put that in your mouth, sit on the chair right or you'll get hurt. Safety is a big deal when raising kids. Thankfully,
no cruises for me. I'd be a nervous wreck and everyone would be annoyed.
I'd also be interested, though, if he had been reckless in the past...

 

[jeena]

There is a good photo of the table and chairs area and railing/windows with an imposed graphic of Chloe looking out of the bottom windows (like she should have been doing) on the RC blog site, Freedom of The Seas Fatality on page 14. It's the first photo I've seen which clearly depicts the area for me. If anyone wants to copy and paste it here for the others if they think it's worthwhile, I don't know how to do it on a tablet.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...There was no need at all for her to be swept up into that top window ledge. She was too young to even need to look out that window for any reason. She doesn't even understand. She would have been happy as can be just looking out the bottom window at the big blue ocean wAves.

His 'enjoyment' was at the cost of her life. He used ZERO common sense. That makes me very angry. He literally ruined his family's life by being so reckless and careless. It is heartbreaking.

The ship was docked in San Juan for embarkation. All that Chloe would have seen was the concrete dock below. Lots of activity during embarkation: forklifts hauling guests' luggage to conveyor, food and supplies being loaded onto vessel, passengers walking up the gangway to board the ship, etc. There may or may not have been a water view on the opposite side of the ship depending on where they were docked at the pier. I haven't cruised out of San Juan for a while and don't recall the cruise port. Chloe didn't need to be lifted up to see what was going on below; she could have seen everything from the lower windows.