IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

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I find it strange that no-one came to help him but all got up and walked away. Why?

Secondly, the smoking section has upright seats, ashtrays and tables, not those day-lounges.

Chilling new video of toddler cruise fall
This is a less grainy version of the CCTV recording than I've seen previously and this shows me 100 % SA leans out window looking down , this makes him a liar , he would have hit his forehead on the glass if window had been closed . Then hes seen picking up chloe and leaning out again . The distance between the handrail and window / open window is around 6 inch so if SA did sit C on rail they both would still be in line of sight . SA upper body is physically forward out of sight , this video IMO blows SA version of events out the water .
Putting any child in danger like this is horrifying and, in this case fatal . How Chloes mum can allow him to shirk out of any responsibility and go along with a very weak law suit against CC is beyond my comprehension . She left chloe in his care and he didn't fulfill the role . As a mum your child is the most precious thing to you and for someone whether you blood or not to treat them so carelessly is unforgivable . There doesn't need to be a sign saying ' don't sit on rail ' to know what's safe and what's not safe.
Don't hold a wet , wriggly , excited toddler near an open window . Its simple. If you choose to to do so with devastating consequences , own up to your failings
 
I find it strange that no-one came to help him but all got up and walked away. Why?

Secondly, the smoking section has upright seats, ashtrays and tables, not those day-lounges.

Chilling new video of toddler cruise fall

In another video, taken from the pool area, after a pause, people start running toward him.

It appears from the linked video that he is holding Chloe with one arm and shaking her outside the window before he drops to the floor. Does anyone else see that?
 
RCCL CHANCES OF SETTLING







I addressed this in one of the previous threads so I'm not going to go too in depth into this, but the chances of RCCL settling out of court for this is close to, if not actually 0. Why? Because of precedent.

The burden of proof, in this case, that the plaintiffs have to meet is was RC negligent in that they didn't know/predict that SA would put the child in the window and drop her from the 11th deck, and take steps that would have prevented him from doing it. The answer is that no, the Wiegands will never be able to prove that.

For one thing, the claim in the suit that the ship is in violation of regulations is bunk. They are trying to hold the cruise ship to building/hotel standards, not seagoing vessel standards. While they say that cruise ships are basically "floating hotels" the safety codes and regulations between the two are very different for very obvious reasons, they are in no way the same. All that RC has to do is to provide coast guard and other agency inspection reports showing that those windows are in full compliance with current applicable regulations and that argument is tossed.

For another, there has never been a child under the age of about 13-15 who has gone overboard/out of a window going back some 30 years of records. An online database going back to 1995 and listing all incidents of passengers/staff going overboard on commercial passenger vessels (cruise ships and ferrys) Chloe is the ONLY small child. The only other child listed is a 7-year-old involved in a suicide in which the mother took him and jumped with him. There has never been one previous incident of a child falling out of a window on a cruise ship, because most people have enough common sense to keep them away from them. No one else has ever needed to be warned to not put a child into the window on a cruise ship, so why would they have ever thought SA would have needed to be protected from himself? The standards they are claiming were set because children had fallen out of hotel/building windows, but since that hasn't happened on a cruise ship there isn't any reason to say that RC should be following those ones instead of the ones already in place. Cruise Passengers Overboard

And of course, RC already has clear safety instructions that passengers are issued prior to even showing up at the docks that SA ignored, stating that it's dangerous to sit/stand/climb on the railings. He was provided with those instructions prior to boarding and ignored them, putting her on the other side of said railing. By violating that set rule he takes on 100% of the blame.

As far as I can see, my opinion, there is absolutely NO CASE against the cruise line and absolutely no reason they or their insurer would settle in this instance. This case will probably be dismissed because they are suing on inapplicable standards or if it even goes to trial will be decided in RC favor, just as countless other lawsuits blaming them for people going overboard have been.
Thank you for reposting your thoughts! I posted similar waaaay back but now that the video is out it's good to revisit both the criminal charge and the civil case.

I'll add that since the civil suit is brought in Miami if it doesn't settle and actually goes to trial there's a small chance that a jury will award the family something simply out of sympathy. Most people aren't following the cases as closely as we are and a jury will depend upon what's presented. And as we all know, juries can be unpredictable!

There's also a small chance that RCCL will be found a percentage liable and IMO a larger chance that SA will also be found a large percentage liable. At this point with what I know I'd not award a penny to this family but who knows what a Miami jury would do? Watching a good copy of the video may very well swing things though. I hope so as I strongly feel that no one should be rewarded for acting like a jackass. I feel the same about people who get drunk and fall overboard. We're adults for goodness sakes and responsible for our own actions. MOO.
 
In another video, taken from the pool area, after a pause, people start running toward him.

It appears from the linked video that he is holding Chloe with one arm and shaking her outside the window before he drops to the floor. Does anyone else see that?
You bet!
And I just have to add
giphy.gif
 
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I have been asking my DH that very question incessantly.
It seems like maybe SA and his wife would have watched Chloe together. “Chloe, you stay with grandma and grandpa while mommy runs down to the office.”

I wonder if grandpa purposely took her by himself so he could go smoke? Or for some other reason?

I would love to hear an interview with the other set of grandparents. Wonder what their thoughts are, and if they have viewed the video.
 
Glad I’m not the only one who sees that. How could he?
Some people like to scare little kids. :mad:
Yes they do! It’s truly sick.

and @LietKynes remember when we commented back in thread one “if it was intentional?”
Hmmm, it wasn’t. Was it? ETA- surely if it was, the charges would reflect this.
 
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It seems like maybe SA and his wife would have watched Chloe together. “Chloe, you stay with grandma and grandpa while mommy runs down to the office.”

I wonder if grandpa purposely took her by himself so he could go smoke? Or for some other reason?

I would love to hear an interview with the other set of grandparents. Wonder what their thoughts are, and if they have viewed the video.
You know that's what I think. :(:mad: BBM JMOO
 
The way that they're talking about it on the newscasts and articles from PR seem to indicate a lot of doubt.
And absolute horror. As it should be.
SA would be wise to take that plea deal that was offered !!!!
Does he want to fight this and possibly see charges upgraded ??
 
I don’t think we can imply intention on the part of SA per TOS. But it doesn’t have to be an intentional thought on SA’s part to be considered depraved indifference. IMO That’s just a “hair-split” away from a deliberate action. As we’ve discussed before, SA has a record of repeatedly flaunting the law regarding speeding and seatbelts. Believing you’re above the law is an intentional choice, even if the action itself isn’t intentional.

Definition:
In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is a type of murder where an individual acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death, despite that individual not explicitly intending to kill. In a depraved-heart murder, defendants commit an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to a person. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a "depraved indifference" to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought.[1][2] In some states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder,[3] while in others, the act would be charged with varying degrees of manslaughter.[4]

Depraved-heart murder - Wikipedia

Depraved Indifference Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
 
Glad I’m not the only one who sees that. How could he?
Some people like to scare little kids. :mad:

Bullies bully anything smaller. They are pathetic form of human.
My old dog held her ball in her mouth 24/7 but there was one person who would just take it from her mouth and hold onto it sometimes above his head, sit on it or put it up where she couldn’t reach it just to see her anguish.

I raised my voice at him not to touch the dogs ball ever!
It was cruel and I let him know it.

.
 
I don’t think we can imply intention on the part of SA per TOS. But it doesn’t have to be an intentional thought on SA’s part to be considered depraved indifference. IMO That’s just a “hair-split” away from a deliberate action. As we’ve discussed before, SA has a record of repeatedly flaunting the law regarding speeding and seatbelts. Believing you’re above the law is an intentional choice, even if the action itself isn’t intentional.

Definition:
In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is a type of murder where an individual acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death, despite that individual not explicitly intending to kill. In a depraved-heart murder, defendants commit an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to a person. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a "depraved indifference" to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought.[1][2] In some states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder,[3] while in others, the act would be charged with varying degrees of manslaughter.[4]

Depraved-heart murder - Wikipedia

Depraved Indifference Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

very true.
 
Question: remember the news guy saw an "out of sequence" video and explained what he saw, …"sam stands chloe on the rail, then leans forward with chloe twice... { not a direct quote} --- I don't see any of that on the video, I see him hoist her over his head, over the handrail, and outside the window ( I don't see her inside the ship after he hoists her} then I see his lower body gyrating as if he is swinging her. Whats up with the guys description?
 
Question: remember the news guy saw an "out of sequence" video and explained what he saw, …"sam stands chloe on the rail, then leans forward with chloe twice... { not a direct quote} --- I don't see any of that on the video, I see him hoist her over his head, over the handrail, and outside the window ( I don't see her inside the ship after he hoists her} then I see his lower body gyrating as if he is swinging her. Whats up with the guys description?

If you watch this video (the one from behind) you will see more of Chloe. There is some action on the guardrail for a few seconds. You can make out her white hat.

Scroll forward to start at about the 9 min mark through till about 7:50 min. (it is a video count back counter not a count forward counter)

The side-on video seems to have been sped up so that Chloe is not seen very much.

 
Ok...Just my 2¢ :

First of all, the video was much clearer on my phone, than full screen on my laptop. (clear enough to see Chloe's fingers as she stretched her arms outside!)

After I viewed it, I was just "OMG!" Couldn't even post here about it. Just completely shocked by the reality.

Even though I knew from the start, he had to have known the window was open. He knew it wasn't a "wall of glass sealed shut" type deal. So I knew he was lying about that.

I was surprised there was so much discussion about the appropriateness of allowing a child to "bang on glass" because I thought no one could even believe that's what he was trying to do anyway. But people still seemed to be debating that...

So that's ruled out now, if it was ever in doubt for anyone. (imo uhg).

Dude walks right up and nearly bends in half, looking out the open window.

Next thing I took note of, SA did not lead Chloe to that particular window, as I originally envisioned. Chloe was ahead of Sam and he followed her. Right to that spot.

I am not understanding where all the speculation about his smoking/vaping being a lazy hippie pothead who plays video games, is coming from. That boggles my mind.

Girls father is a cop. I'm gonna say, I think he'd frown on allowing Chloe around a completely degenerate person that SA is being depicted as now that he is hated for his careless, irresponsible behavioral traits. And for causing Chloe's death. Which he clearly did, but we have no evidence that he smoked, vaped, or even played video games, so I'm gonna just stick with what I do know, he killed that baby girl. I just saw him do it!

The next thing I'd like to comment on, is SA's rocking back n forth...(given that I know he knew the window was open, there were other guests looking out windows, even that very same window, so it was not even the only open window, as is being put forth by the lawyers)...

If you watch SA's rocking motion and say to yourself, "a-one-a, a-two-a, a-three-a"... it sincs perfectly... no way of knowing if he was playing that ol game, just saying... the hair on the back of my neck stood up seeing that part.

When this first came out, I originally thought, SA was probably the fun, dare devil type, who took some risks but safe enough ones, and he messed up huge this time. I had far more sympathy for him than I do now.

I still think he loved Chloe, but I now also feel, something is terribly wrong with him. No one, in their right mind, would ever do what I just watched him do.

I have no idea why he wasn't terrified of holding her, even close to, never mind out of, that obviously open window.

I'm beyond stunned.

I think it's a bit much to surmise that he was saying scary things to Chloe like, "if you make me chase you again, I'll toss you out the window" or that he outright planned to murder the child, that's a huge stretch imo.

And no one was likely to over hear anything they chatted about, being that most people are absorbed in their own experience and ships are noisy...

Lastly, I can see people being confused about the children's play area vs adult area, of a ship as they are on the same floor. (so seems like one big area). Those not familiar with cruises, (like myself), may not be able to draw the distinction, and the family, legal team certainly took advantage of that.

That "Last photo of Chloe" super close up to the Kids splash pool was in extreme poor taste imo. They exploit the poor child for the sake of the lawsuit ! Shame on them.



 
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Of course they wouldn't, but my own perspective about the (possible) cigarette is why he himself may have leaned out of the window, and why they might have been headed for an open window in the first place. That's all.

If the prosecution know he was smoking and flicked his butt out the window, then there is another bit of proof that he knew the window was open.
This is really beside the point, considering what happened. But if he WAS smoking, why on earth would he be doing it with a toddler in the other arm?? That is reckless in my opinion too, did he just not care AT ALL about her health and well being?? Again, that’s IF he was smoking, which we obviously don’t know. The thought just bugs me! If it ends up being true, just one more act of selfishness IMO
 
Yes they do! It’s truly sick.

and @LietKynes remember when we commented back in thread one “if it was intentional?”
Hmmm, it wasn’t. Was it? ETA- surely if it was, the charges would reflect this.

I still think the charges don't reflect what he actually did.
I will be stunned if there is not widespread outrage calling for increased charges. With the tone people are taking down there, they are outraged.


The way that they're talking about it on the newscasts and articles from PR seem to indicate a lot of doubt.
And absolute horror. As it should be.
SA would be wise to take that plea deal that was offered !!!!
Does he want to fight this and possibly see charges upgraded ??

I can't imagine any prosecutor in their right mind not charging him with something worse.... much less offering him a plea deal. I'd still like to hear that this really happened from the prosecution.
 
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