IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[SouthAussie]

That statement has bothered me from the get go. I have to wonder if Winkleman is simply running with what SA and the parents have told him. The whole banging on the glass may even ring hollow to him but technically he's obligated to support his clients' story. Since KW is also a lawyer she and Winkleman may struggle a bit over how they proceed. JMO though.
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

Yes. And I imagine that Ortiz is going to say similar in the negligent homicide trial.

A defense lawyer has to run with something for their defense - and it is generally what their client has agreed to, the story their client told them. In the same manner that a litigation lawyer has to run with something in their lawsuit.

Either scenario sound pretty out there - likely incredible to both Ortiz and Winkleman - when there are floor to ceiling windows. 'Chloe wanted to bang on the glass'. 'Chloe wanted to look at the view'.
They are probably thinking "What???"

 

[jeena]

If SA knew the window was open after he bent over it a few times and decided to stick CW out there to see the view, maybe CW is the one who thought glass was there. Some say it looks like she puts her hands up in the video after she is lifted over the rail, perhaps to bang the glass when SA moved forward with her and she fell through the hole when he
lost his grip. I'm not blaming the victim, SA is totally at fault, IMO. What normal person would place a baby in such a dangerous position?

I think it's strange there are no comments from her blood relative grandfather, Scott Schultz from PA, or the Wiegand grandparents who were on the cruise. Wouldn't the media be hounding them over their granddaughter's death for comments or to report no comments from them?
Watching spunky CW's death walk to the windows on the video is too much to take.

 

[katydid23]

What’s the only benefit of taking the footage to a journalist?

Parents who are searching for a child go to journalists. Otherwise? No.

Publicity?
That seems to be the only benefit. And I think it is only a benefit if you are trying to get the RCCL to agree to a healthy cash settlement.

 

[al66pine]

When/How Much Was Their SocMedia Scrubbed? And SA's?

,,,Sam originally told PR authorities that he accidentally dropped Chloe out the window. Only after Winkleman gets involved, the story changes....
I think Winkleman saw the footage, and made up a (semi) plausible story, that he was able to match to that picture of Chloe at the hockey game, because in one part of the video, her arms/hands are outstretched very, very similarly to that photo.

@Safeguard sbm bbm
When? Did anyone taking screenshots have dates?
Or even a recollection of how much was scrubbed? Or did they erase all of FB, for ex?
After charges were filed, I saw SA's vid clips of exterior Christmas deco's from past yrs, still on youtube.

 

[neesaki]

If SA knew the window was open after he bent over it a few times and decided to stick CW out there to see the view, maybe CW is the one who thought glass was there. Some say it looks like she puts her hands up in the video after she is lifted over the rail, perhaps to bang the glass when SA moved forward with her and she fell through the hole when he
lost his grip. I'm not blaming the victim, SA is totally at fault, IMO. What normal person would place a baby in such a dangerous position?

I think it's strange there are no comments from her blood relative grandfather, Scott Schultz from PA, or the Wiegand grandparents who were on the cruise. Wouldn't the media be hounding them over their granddaughter's death for comments or to report no comments from them?
Watching spunky CW's death walk to the windows on the video is too much to take.

Is that the “game” he was playing? I have to wonder if he was telling her to bang on the glass , knowing there was none? And she leaned forward to try to do so and, Oh no. ...... Gotta walk away now before I go to bandcamp. :VeryVeryAngry:

 

[they'll get you]

I just realised that pool area is enclosed by glass all the way around and only way to get out is through automatic sliding doors at 4 corner exits. I’d like to know if there is a height limit that could open those auto doors.
Maybe the family looked over this pool area and decided this idiot couldn’t injure the child in here.

Ohhh but wait, the idiot found a way.

 

[jeena]

I just realised that pool area is enclosed by glass all the way around and only way to get out is through automatic sliding doors at 4 corner exits. I’d like to know if there was an height limit that could open those auto doors.
Maybe the family looked over this pool area and decided this idiot couldn’t injure the child in here.

Ohhh but wait, the idiot found a way.

There is an 18 step stairway near the pool going up to the next level which has a railing, no windows. SA could have taken CW up there safely for a better view, but who knows, maybe he would have sat her on the railing up there?

 

[al66pine]

NegHom. Not Require Premeditation, Planning, or Intent to Kill

Nice post.
I disagree that it looks intentional though. It doesn't look the least bit planned to me....
I have considered he may have been playing 'pretend I'm gonna drop' you', but after viewing every which way, far too many times, I just don't see anything that looks like he deliberately tossed her out....

@Safeguard bbm sbm. For SA to be found guilty of NegHom, jury does not have to find that he intended to cause her death.
ONE
SA put his own head (and maybe shoulders) outside window frame opening,*
TWO
SA put Chloe 1. very close to window opening, or 2. window ledge, or 3. outside the window, actually suspending her in mid-air.*

IF agreeing ONE & TWO happened, that's NegHom in a nutshell, imo. No planning. No deliberation. No intent to kill, but an act with intent to do something which created risk of serious bodily injury or death.

SA/def atty claimed to have had an excuse for above, but imo those claims are not a plausible legal defense. And legal defense is a subject for another post.
jmo.
----------------------------------------------------------------
* Assuming you have seen vids. And assuming on vids, you saw his head (maybe shoulders) go outside the window frame opening. If you did not see the vids or did not see above two actions on vids, then okay. Seems many of us are seeing the two actions above, but w some slight variations. Maybe in another release, vids will be clearer.

 

[they'll get you]

There is an 18 step stairway near the pool going up to the next level which has a railing, no windows. SA could have taken CW up there safely for a better view, but who knows, maybe he would have sat her on the railing up there?

Oh yes jeena you are right, there are steps upward.
This is the Freedom of the Seas Pool Bar deck 11

 

[al66pine]

Attention RCCL Cruisers
Questions about H20 Zone on Deck 11, specifically the area inside the boardwalk-looking perimeter encircling the fountains, spigots, splashy-gizmos. In first pic in Complaint, page 3, before paragraph 13, Chloe is standing on what I call 'boardwalk.'

Q1. Looks to me like 'boardwalk' is ~ 10 inches/25 centimeters high, designed to keep splashing water inside the kiddie area. Or shorter or taller? Is there some other purpose?

Q2. Looks like there is water flowing thru that area most/all the time, maybe w water being shallower or deeper at times. Maybe 1 - 2 inches deep or even adult ankle high? Yes?
If you were minding/following a toddler there and wore 'street shoes' (not flip flops or water shoes) is the water level high enough to get your shoes all wet? Or is the water level always so low, it would be like walking across a wet patio?
Thx in adv.

 

[Safeguard]

NegHom. Not Require Premeditation, Planning, or Intent to Kill
@Safeguard bbm sbm. For SA to be found guilty of NegHom, jury does not have to find that he intended to cause her death.
ONE
SA put his own head (and maybe shoulders) outside window frame opening,*
TWO
SA put Chloe 1. very close to window opening, or 2. window ledge, or 3. outside the window, actually suspending her in mid-air.*

IF agreeing ONE & TWO happened, that's NegHom in a nutshell, imo. No planning. No deliberation. No intent to kill, but an act with intent to do something which created risk of serious bodily injury or death.

SA/def atty claimed to have had an excuse for above, but imo those claims are not a plausible legal defense. And legal defense is a subject for another post.
jmo.
----------------------------------------------------------------
* Assuming you have seen vids. And assuming on vids, you saw his head (maybe shoulders) go outside the window frame opening. If you did not see the vids or did not see above two actions on vids, then okay. Seems many of us are seeing the two actions above, but w some slight variations. Maybe in another release, vids will be clearer.

I don't quite see your point.
I never made the argument that SA was not guilty of neg hom. We were discussing Intent. Murder1.
Some people feel he deliberately murdered her. I don't. I do feel he's guilty of NH for sure, and you know I saw the video and all that it contains.

 

[Safeguard]

When/How Much Was Their SocMedia Scrubbed? And SA's?
@Safeguard sbm bbm
When? Did anyone taking screenshots have dates?
Or even a recollection of how much was scrubbed? Or did they erase all of FB, for ex?
After charges were filed, I saw SA's vid clips of exterior Christmas deco's from past yrs, still on youtube.

I'm not quite sure what your looking for?
Iirc, the lawyers stopped SA from making a formal statement. (They implied there was some kind of language translation issues)

But in the earliest accounts, authorities claimed he said she slipped from his arms and fell out the window. "He dropped her".

I feel it's possible Winkleman came up with the hockey glass lie, after going over the story, video and social media (and probably other things I haven't thought of too.). because SA's story DID change after Winkleman was hired.

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm not quite sure what your looking for?
Iirc, the lawyers stopped SA from making a formal statement. (They implied there was some kind of language translation issues)

But in the earliest accounts, authorities claimed he said she slipped from his arms and fell out the window. "He dropped her".

I feel it's possible Winkleman came up with the hockey glass lie, after going over the story, video and social media (and probably other things I haven't thought of too.). because SA's story DID change after Winkleman was hired.

Winkleman must have worked pretty rapidly if he came up with that story, considering that he was in the picture within 2 days following Chloe's death.

July 9, 2019
Michael Winkleman, a Miami-based attorney hired by Chloe's family, said her grandfather put the girl on a ledge near a window in a children's area, but was unaware that the window was open.
"Essentially her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it's clear, but it turns out there was no glass there," he said. "She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she's gone."
Family of toddler who fell from cruise ship speaks out about cause of death


What another member (sorry, can't remember who) said earlier makes a lot of sense to me. That Chloe might have thought there was glass there, with her little arms raised up like that. Even though SA must have known the window was open.
Perhaps Chloe's mum and dad could see that familiar movement on the CCTV and realised what Chloe was probably thinking. They would know their little girl better than anybody would.

 

[they'll get you]

Winkleman must have worked pretty rapidly if he came up with that story, considering that he was in the picture within 2 days following Chloe's death.

July 9, 2019
Michael Winkleman, a Miami-based attorney hired by Chloe's family, said her grandfather put the girl on a ledge near a window in a children's area, but was unaware that the window was open.
"Essentially her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it's clear, but it turns out there was no glass there," he said. "She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she's gone."
Family of toddler who fell from cruise ship speaks out about cause of death


What another member said earlier makes a lot of sense to me. That Chloe might have thought there was glass there, with her little arms raised up like that. Even though SA must have known the window was open.
Perhaps Chloe's mum and dad could see that familiar movement on the CCTV and realised what Chloe was probably thinking.

Good thinking that it’s possible Chloe lunged forward thinking SA held her up to bang on the glass and caught SA unaware. SA knew the glass was not there at that time but Chloe didn’t.

It’s not baby Chloe’s fault what idiots taught her.

 

[al66pine]

I don't quite see your point.
I never made the argument that SA was not guilty of neg hom. We were discussing Intent. Murder1.
Some people feel he deliberately murdered her. I don't. I do feel he's guilty of NH for sure, and you know I saw the video and all that it contains.

@Safeguard Sorry, I mistakenly quoted from your post, when I meant to include part of someone else's. My apologies.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

The Other Grandparents?

@vallie sbm Yes, Seems like they would want an explanation.
Do we know if they are actually sympathetic to SA?
Maybe just being quiet?
Maybe maintaining a modicum of dignity?
IDK.

Their silence is very loud.

 

[al66pine]

I'm not quite sure what your looking for? ....
I feel it's possible Winkleman came up with the hockey glass lie, after going over the story, video and social media (and probably other things I haven't thought of too.). because SA's story DID change after Winkleman was hired.

@Safeguard sbm bbm Thank you for posting this.
Yes, bbm is the point: AW & KSW's soc media may have given atty-W some ideas, pix, etc for use in civil suit.
Of course, AW & KSW undoubtedly provided lots of info to atty-W, a look thru their soc media - before they scrubbed any (if they did scrub or edit) - could have sparked the banging-on-glass and other ideas atty W has run up the flagpole.
Thanks agn.

 

[Safeguard]

@Safeguard sbm bbm Thank you for posting this.
Yes, bbm is the point: AW & KSW's soc media may have given atty-W some ideas, pix, etc for use in civil suit.
Of course, AW & KSW undoubtedly provided lots of info to atty-W, a look thru their soc media - before they scrubbed any (if they did scrub or edit) - could have sparked the banging-on-glass and other ideas atty W has run up the flagpole.
Thanks agn.

Right. Why else would SA have never told the original authorities that he thought there was glass there?

You would think that's ťhe very thing he would have said!
"I thought the window was closed but it was open and she fell out! "

But that's not what he said:
"The toddler's maternal grandfather, identified as Salvatore Anello, was reportedly playfully dangling the child from one of the ship's port-side windows when he lost his grasp, sending the girl plummeting into an awning before she landed on the concrete dock below. "

"It's a very grave scene, very regrettable and tragic," Elmer Román, an official with the Puerto Rican Department of Public Security, told Puerto Rico's Primera Horanewspaper. "One of the grandfathers, whom it would appear was playing with the little girl, lifted her out of the open window and lost his grip."

Toddler slips from grandfather's arms, falls to her death from 11th floor of cruise ship

 

[they'll get you]

Under stress his lies flowed easily.
I think he’s well skilled at it.

IMO.

 

[SuzDuJour]

I wonder why he was alone with Chloe, where was his wife?