IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[Lawnguylander1964]

FULL DISCLOSURE: It is a universal truth that I will have a drink in my hand at sail away on a cruise. No apologies offered.

If I ever go on a cruise, I think I will need to try every umbrella drink they have.

 

[mheido67]

Agreed.
Very well stated and I fully believe there is possible evidence that this was intentional and premeditated.
The actions of the Wiegands' and SA go beyond strange.

They do not want to watch the video as it would show their story to be a lie.
And yes, there's the financial aspect.

Alternately they perhaps have an aversion to actually watching their 18 month old daughter fall to her death. JMO

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

Alternately they perhaps have an aversion to actually watching their 18 month old daughter fall to her death. JMO

You raise a good point, and I have thought about this. However, she saw her daughter’s body on the pier below. As a parent, to me anyway, that would be the worst. And I would demand answers even if that meant watching that video.

YMMV (your mileage may vary)

 

[LietKynes]

Alternately they perhaps have an aversion to actually watching their 18 month old daughter fall to her death. JMO

Not to be churlish, but the video does not show her falling.
Out of all of the people she could have had watch Chloe, she chose SA who had past brushes with the law and knew that window was open.
Besides sticking his head out of it and looking at the pier below.
Why did he do that ?
We may never know--- but SA did what he did for his own reasons.
There was no aversion to launching their lawsuit; that's certain.
Imo.

 

[mheido67]

Not to be churlish, but the video does not show her falling.
Out of all of the people she could have had watch Chloe, she chose SA who had past brushes with the law and knew that window was open.
Besides sticking his head out of it and looking at the pier below.
Why did he do that ?
We may never know--- but SA did what he did for his own reasons.
There was no aversion to launching their lawsuit; that's certain.
Imo.

It does indeed show her falling. It does not show her striking the ground. Perhaps you don’t but I can empathize with not wanting to have that image in my mind for the rest of my life.

I don’t believe the video conclusively shows his head out the window. What I think it shows is SA bending over the wood railing to look down at CW on the floor. That’s what he was looking down at IMO.

 

[LietKynes]

It does indeed show her falling. It does not show her striking the ground. Perhaps you don’t but I can empathize with not wanting to have that image in my mind for the rest of my life.

I don’t believe the video conclusively shows his head out the window. What I think it shows is SA bending over the wood railing to look down at CW on the floor. That’s what he was looking down at IMO.

bbm
It shows the sunlight on her back as he dangled her forward and let her go ; if that's what you mean by falling.
There's no video of her after SA lurches her little body forward.
And as to the First bolded : I never stated that so please do not ascribe your thoughts as my own.

Very few people except the most cold-hearted would not want to know what another person's actions were that ended their babies' life !
This isn't about Chloe but has become something else entirely.
People are greedy and they can commit premeditated acts.
We don't know this for sure and it depends on what the jury will decide and that's why my comment includes the 'in my opinion'.

Second bolded : He didn't appear to be looking at the floor but at the deck below. so yes he may have watched her fall. Imo.
What we think about why SA stuck his head outside that window will be decided in a court of law and more than likely RCCL will have footage that's more distinct and possibly other angles that have not been shown to the public.

Last thoughts are that I cannot and will not defend a man who arrogantly and foolishly dangles and drops a baby to her death !
Astounding that anyone can.
Most of all her parents.
MOO.

 

[justbreathe]

Alternately they perhaps have an aversion to actually watching their 18 month old daughter fall to her death. JMO

Except the video doesn’t really show that. It just shows SA’s careless actions. If they don’t want to watch it they need to stop talking about how they know what happened.

 

[justbreathe]

It does indeed show her falling. It does not show her striking the ground. Perhaps you don’t but I can empathize with not wanting to have that image in my mind for the rest of my life.

I don’t believe the video conclusively shows his head out the window. What I think it shows is SA bending over the wood railing to look down at CW on the floor. That’s what he was looking down at IMO.

I don’t think that grainy image will replace the image of her daughter’s broken body 11 decks below. Too bad he didn’t leave her on the floor.

 

[Fidobell]

It does indeed show her falling. It does not show her striking the ground. Perhaps you don’t but I can empathize with not wanting to have that image in my mind for the rest of my life.

I don’t believe the video conclusively shows his head out the window. What I think it shows is SA bending over the wood railing to look down at CW on the floor. That’s what he was looking down at IMO.

the image of my daughter falling would be in my mind whether I had watched CCTV or not . KW knows enough to run the scenario over in her mind .
It is her baby's last seconds and I would insist on knowing every last detail, seeing every last piece of film hear every word from the people who were there . Cant understand this pursuit of CL but not the very person who flung C up and over the rail . Perhaps that's admiting you made a mistake in yr choice of babysitter.
FWIW I believe he does look out window , the angle of his body bent over at the railing and the closeness to the railing shows his head ' out ' rather than ' looking down at C'

 

[al66pine]

What Did KSW See on Pier?

You raise a good point, and I have thought about this. However, she saw her daughter’s body on the pier below. As a parent, to me anyway, that would be the worst....

@HRH Phoebe Cat sbm bbm Agreeing - to the extent it's possible KSW saw Chloe's body on pier. IDK if MSM quoted LE or witnesses explicitly on this. Is it an assumption that she saw body, because of MSM/Daily Mail stmt to the effect ~ her screams were like nothing ever heard before?
Is it possible the ship doc had already instructed that Chloe be covered, so by the time KSW arrived from where ever and looked out window, down to pier, Chloe's body was already covered? Even seeing 'something' w cover could elicit screams as it would still be an awful shock.

Timeline reporting about who arrived where & when is sketchy, {ETA: therefore, timeline facts are not known} and/or I may have missed some info.

 

[mheido67]

bbm
It shows the sunlight on her back as he dangled her forward and let her go ; if that's what you mean by falling.
There's no video of her after SA lurches her little body forward.
And as to the First bolded : I never stated that so please do not ascribe your thoughts as my own.

Very few people except the most cold-hearted would not want to know what another person's actions were that ended their babies' life !
This isn't about Chloe but has become something else entirely.
People are greedy and they can commit premeditated acts.
We don't know this for sure and it depends on what the jury will decide and that's why my comment includes the 'in my opinion'.

Second bolded : He didn't appear to be looking at the floor but at the deck below. so yes he may have watched her fall. Imo.
What we think about why SA stuck his head outside that window will be decided in a court of law and more than likely RCCL will have footage that's more distinct and possibly other angles that have not been shown to the public.

Last thoughts are that I cannot and will not defend a man who arrogantly and foolishly dangles and drops a baby to her death !
Astounding that anyone can.
Most of all her parents.
MOO.

I didn’t ascribe anything to you. I said perhaps. Funny that you then in the next sentence ascribe cold-heartedness to someone based on what you think. I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I just think people are making a lot of assumptions based on what they think people should do or feel about the tragic loss of their child. People grieve in different ways. I’m not defending SA or the Wiegand’s lawsuit, I think it’s bogus. But I also don’t think they plotted to murder their child for an insurance or lawsuit payout. But that’s JMO.

 

[justbreathe]

i agree - i just. dont see any evidence of an intentional act

SA’s actions, and his excuses, are so baffling and beyond what any normal person in their right mind would ever do it seems inconceivable this could just be a simple mistake.

He lifted a child over a safety rail. Then leaned over even further, and is claiming he could not tell there was nothing but air inches in front of his face. He then dropped her and made no effort to reach out and try to grab her.

It is mind-blowing. What the heck was he thinking?

In my mind if he wasn’t intoxicated, it was intentional. Because no sane person would do what he did.

 

[justbreathe]

What Did KSW See on Pier?
@HRH Phoebe Cat sbm bbm Agreeing - to the extent it's possible KSW saw Chloe's body on pier. IDK if MSM quoted LE or witnesses explicitly on this. Is it an assumption that she saw body, because of MSM/Daily Mail stmt to the effect ~ her screams were like nothing ever heard before?
Is it possible the ship doc had already instructed that Chloe be covered, so by the time KSW arrived from where ever and looked out window, down to pier, Chloe's body was already covered? Even seeing 'something' w cover could elicit screams as it would still be an awful shock.

Timeline facts about who arrived where & when are sketchy, and/or I may have missed some info.

The doctor said he heard the scream moments after he arrived but before the sheet was brought. KW said she ran over to the window and looked down and saw concrete not water. She saw Chloe and screamed, tragically.

 

[LietKynes]

I didn’t ascribe anything to you. I said perhaps. Funny that you then in the next sentence ascribe cold-heartedness to someone based on what you think. I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I just think people are making a lot of assumptions based on what they think people should do or feel about the tragic loss of their child. People grieve in different ways. I’m not defending SA or the Wiegand’s lawsuit, I think it’s bogus. But I also don’t think they plotted to murder their child for an insurance or lawsuit payout. But that’s JMO.

bbm

That was not 'based on what (I) think', but rather pointing out the actions of certain people.

Some people become known by their actions far more than their words.

If there was an insurance payout it's probably already been given to the parents close to the time of her burial.
Since you mentioned insurance.
People looking at this from the outside were initially sympathetic until the talk show circuit and the second presser, along with the demands to 'fix the ship'.
Amazing.
There was never a problem with the ship.
And it's a given that any payout the Wiegands' receive will not be paid back into new windows or railings.
I have no problems at all on this end and this is an interesting viewpoint.
Imo.

 

[LietKynes]

The doctor said he heard the scream moments after he arrived but before the sheet was brought. KW said she ran over to the window and looked down and saw concrete not water. She saw Chloe and screamed, tragically.

Yes, about the water... why was she expecting to see water ?
Makes no sense.
The family had been possibly eating at a buffet from the early reports, so they'd been on board for a while and had to know they were still in port ?

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

What Did KSW See on Pier?
@HRH Phoebe Cat sbm bbm Agreeing - to the extent it's possible KSW saw Chloe's body on pier. IDK if MSM quoted LE or witnesses explicitly on this. Is it an assumption that she saw body, because of MSM/Daily Mail stmt to the effect ~ her screams were like nothing ever heard before?
Is it possible the ship doc had already instructed that Chloe be covered, so by the time KSW arrived from where ever and looked out window, down to pier, Chloe's body was already covered? Even seeing 'something' w cover could elicit screams as it would still be an awful shock.

Timeline facts about who arrived where & when are sketchy, and/or I may have missed some info.

Thanks @justbreathe !

Thanks, @al66pine , for the timely reminder precision is a good thing, especially in a situation such as this which invokes not only emotional responses but visceral ones as well due to the sheer horror of it.

 

[LietKynes]

What Did KSW See on Pier?
@HRH Phoebe Cat sbm bbm Agreeing - to the extent it's possible KSW saw Chloe's body on pier. IDK if MSM quoted LE or witnesses explicitly on this. Is it an assumption that she saw body, because of MSM/Daily Mail stmt to the effect ~ her screams were like nothing ever heard before?
Is it possible the ship doc had already instructed that Chloe be covered, so by the time KSW arrived from where ever and looked out window, down to pier, Chloe's body was already covered? Even seeing 'something' w cover could elicit screams as it would still be an awful shock.

Timeline facts about who arrived where & when are sketchy, and/or I may have missed some info.

Double post.
Agreed.
Timelines are indeed sketchy.
Every link has something a little different unless the link is quoting the same article !
They were at a buffet except step grandpa and Chloe.
Mom was called away to a ship issue of which we still know nothing about.
They weren't at a buffet but mom asked SA to watch Chloe, maybe for some 'me time' ?
SA was not a drinker according to their close friend M. Winkleman. *sarcasm as there's no evidence Winkleman knew the Wiegands' at all before the incident*
No one knows if SA had anything to drink as he refused a breathalyzer.
Etc.
Imo.

 

[al66pine]

Except the video doesn’t really show that. It just shows SA’s careless actions. If they don’t want to watch it they need to stop talking about how they know what happened.

@justbreathe
In maintaining the public position that they have not seen vids of SA at window (possibly false?) maybe KSW & AW feel they can confidently continue the charade SA did nothing wrong.
Ostensibly relying on counsel to watch vids, ferret out what happened, who to blame. Oh, RCL.

You know, because Sam would never do anything to put Chloe in danger.

 

[LietKynes]

@justbreathe
In maintaining the public position that they have not seen vids of SA at window (possibly false?) maybe KSW & AW feel they can confidently continue the charade SA did nothing wrong.
Ostensibly relying on counsel to watch vids, ferret out what happened, who to blame. Oh, RCL.

You know, because Sam would never do anything to put Chloe in danger.

Well SA should have been much more worried about Chloe's parents instead of PR courts.
But life is funny that way. *major eye roll*

 

[mheido67]

Yes, about the water... why was she expecting to see water ?
Makes no sense.
The family had been possibly eating at a buffet from the early reports, so they'd been on board for a while and had to know they were still in port ?

They did not board the ship at pier level but rather on an elevated gangway from the terminal building so she may not have realized how close the edge of the ship was to the pier. And there was only pier on one side of the ship, water on the other, if she was unaware of which side was which she was just as likely to expect water as concrete, no?