IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[mheido67]

@justbreathe
In maintaining the public position that they have not seen vids of SA at window (possibly false?) maybe KSW & AW feel they can confidently continue the charade SA did nothing wrong.
Ostensibly relying on counsel to watch vids, ferret out what happened, who to blame. Oh, RCL.

You know, because Sam would never do anything to put Chloe in danger.

I don’t discount that not wanting to create doubt that SA was not responsible in their minds played into the decision not to watch the video. Perhaps because the thought of tearing their family even more apart is not something they want to do. People often don’t want to face the hard things. Especially regarding g family members. It’s a bit of a defense mechanism.

 

[neesaki]

Do you not feel that the parents may be advocating for the GF so strongly, because they've already lost their GC and dont want to lose another family member?

With all these threads, I imagine this question has already been asked before, so forgive me if its annoying. hahah

Idk. Except if it were me I would go out of my way to lose anyone who treated my baby that way and caused her death. Jmo

 

[LietKynes]

They did not board the ship at pier level but rather on an elevated gangway from the terminal building so she may not have realized how close the edge of the ship was to the pier. And there was only pier on one side of the ship, water on the other, if she was unaware of which side was which she was just as likely to expect water as concrete, no?

bbm
Yes, they'd board at an upper level --I'd imagine the same entrance for all of the passengers except the staff/employees ?
Somewhat like an airplane boarding ?

This wasn't their first cruise, they'd sailed before with Disney cruises.
KSW would have known which side was the pier and which was the open sea; imo.
She is an odd one to figure out... but she's not stupid.
She'd know the difference between 'port' and 'starboard'.
Do they still call it that ?
Where's that poster who was going on a cruise ?
Eta : Sorry it was "they'll get you"; but I think it was a different person either going on or returning from a cruise.
Same line but a different ship.
And a similar window type, I think ??

My query about the water was thinking along a different theory, that may be revealed at the court trial if SA doesn't take any plea deal offered.
As far as I know he has refused any deals.
He and Chloe's parents are not showing signs of backing down and they will fight for their payout until the bitter end.
Or so it would appear.
Someone pointed out in an earlier thread that SA being jailed for 3 years or so might or might not affect the lawsuit.
Wonder if Winkleman is still hanging on to the Wiegands' ?

 

[mheido67]

bbm
Yes, they'd board at an upper level --I'd imagine the same entrance for all of the passengers except the staff/employees ?
Somewhat like an airplane boarding ?

This wasn't their first cruise, they'd sailed before with Disney cruises.
KSW would have known which side was the pier and which was the open sea; imo.
She is an odd one to figure out... but she's not stupid.
She'd know the difference between 'port' and 'starboard'.
Do they still call it that ?
Where's that poster who was going on a cruise ?
Crisp P. Bacon ?
No, that's not it.
I.M Bacon ?
Darn it.

My query about the water was thinking along a different theory, that may be revealed at the court trial if SA doesn't take any plea deal offered.
As far as I know he has refused any deals.
He and Chloe's parents are not showing signs of backing down and they will fight for their payout until the bitter end.
Or so it would appear.
Someone pointed out in an earlier thread that SA being jailed for 3 years or so might or might not affect the lawsuit.
Wonder if Winkleman is still hanging on to the Wiegands' ?

Have you ever been on one of those large cruise ships? They have signs everywhere telling you which direction is fore and which is aft. They’re very disorientating unless you are a very naturally orientated person. Having just been told her daughter fell out a window (or whatever she was told) I doubt her previous cruising experience informed her about which side of the ship the pier was on at that moment.

And contrary to what many might believe ships don’t always port on the port side.

 

[al66pine]

Yes, about the water... why was she expecting to see water ? Makes no sense. The family had been possibly eating at a buffet from the early reports, so they'd been on board for a while and had to know they were still in port ?

@LietKynes bbm Yes, seems KSW would have known ship was still docked. KSW's surprise about dock-not-water?
1. Once inside a bldg/cruise liner, some ppl don't have a good sense (even totally sober) of where they are in bldg/ship: stern or aft, port or starboard, which deck, etc. and they get turned around. It's possible KSW just got muddled up about this. {ETA: as @mheido67 posted. }
2. ???

 

[LietKynes]

@LietKynes bbm Yes, seems KSW would have known ship was still docked. KSW's surprise about dock-not-water?
1. Once inside a bldg/cruise liner, some ppl don't have a good sense (even totally sober) of where they are in bldg/ship: stern or aft, port or starboard, which deck, etc. and they get turned around. It's possible KSW just got muddled up about this.
2. ???

Now you have me curious...
What was # 2 ?

 

[Lawsmygame2]

The doctor said he heard the scream moments after he arrived but before the sheet was brought. KW said she ran over to the window and looked down and saw concrete not water. She saw Chloe and screamed, tragically.

Something I have always wondered since this incident...what exactly was KW told before she ran to the window and looked out? I can’t imagine that someone would have bluntly said, “your daughter fell out of the window.” More likely it would have been something like, “there has been a tragic accident involving your daughter.” Further, how would anyone know that she was the mother to tell her about the accident? Did she just happen upon the chaotic scene and see SA and assume there was a accident? I don’t recall any details of how KW found out.

 

[al66pine]

Life Insurance Benefits. Paid?

...If there was an insurance payout it's probably already been given to the parents close to the time of her burial....

@LietKynes sbm Given that PR LE publicly stated early on (July 9-10? per Daily Mail) that they were investigating this death as possible homicide, I wonder whether L/Ins benefits (if policy/ies exist/s) would have been paid so quickly as ^.
I could be wrong, but after receiving a claim for benefits w D/Cert, presumably showing manner of death as homicide (maybe accident?), the policy issuer would have been in communication w PR LE, about any possible crim charges filed or contemplated. Possibly not paid yet. Or possibly paid promptly as ^, IDK.

 

[al66pine]

Now you have me curious...
What was # 2 ?

Other than KSW possibly getting muddled up about whether she was on port or starboard side, I don't have any ideas.
{{ETA: Oops, I just read back
@mheido67 had a great idea for alternative explanation.
2. In boarding by elevated gangway, from terminal bldg to ship, KSW may not have noticed how close the ship was to the concrete. From Deck 11 looking down she may have expected to see water in a gap she thought there would have been between the ship & concrete. Instead she just saw concrete.}}

 

[LietKynes]

Something I have always wondered since this incident...what exactly was KW told before she ran to the window and looked out? I can’t imagine that someone would have bluntly said, “your daughter fell out of the window.” More likely it would have been something like, “there has been a tragic accident involving your daughter.” Further, how would anyone know that she was the mother to tell her about the accident? Did she just happen upon the chaotic scene and see SA and assume there was a accident? I don’t recall any details of how KW found out.

I'd imagine someone related like SA's wife told her.
And they would have known by the disturbance after SA collapsed; several minutes after looking out and downwards from past the window ledge.
Just watching the videos and typing that makes my skin crawl.
As a part time actor he would've known how to portray grief.
His video interview with the reporter was ludicrous.

 

[LietKynes]

Other than KSW possibly getting muddled up about whether she was on port or starboard side, I don't have any ideas. So, 2. = ??? Anyone else have ideas?

bbm
Sorry-- I answered and I think you were looking for someone else to chime in.
Doesn't appear to be many posting on this thread....so thanks for keeping it alive and kicking.

There's other theories ....but if -- and when -- this goes to trial we may be able to discuss it further.

As for now I'm curious about what the 'ship errand' KW had to leave Chloe with SA for ?
Was there no one else that was more trustworthy ?
Why him ?

 

[al66pine]

I'd imagine someone related like SA's wife told her.
And they would have known by the disturbance after SA collapsed; several minutes after looking out and downwards from past the window ledge....

@LietKynes sbm
Re bbm, okay, if so, how would SA's W (i.e., KSW's mother) learn about this? Was she close enough that she could see SA at window w Chloe or falling to his knees? Close enough we could see her in vids publicly released?
Not trying to argue, these details have me baffled.
Did everyone in group still have cells in hand, in touch that way?
Did KSW finish her cruise-matter, return to Deck 11 as planned, and came back to this horror?

 

[al66pine]

Something I have always wondered since this incident...what exactly was KW told before she ran to the window and looked out? I can’t imagine that someone would have bluntly said, “your daughter fell out of the window.” More likely it would have been something like, “there has been a tragic accident involving your daughter.” Further, how would anyone know that she was the mother to tell her about the accident? Did she just happen upon the chaotic scene and see SA and assume there was a accident? I don’t recall any details of how KW found out.

@Lawsmygame2 ^^^All good questions. I am wondering the same. AFAIK, nothing but speculation on these details & timing.

 

[Wehwalt]

But there would be a deadline for plaintiffs to respond, correct?

Yes, 21 days, ordinarily, per Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 7, unless there's a court order altering that.

 

[JulieBEMT]

bbm
Yes, they'd board at an upper level --I'd imagine the same entrance for all of the passengers except the staff/employees ?
Somewhat like an airplane boarding ?

This wasn't their first cruise, they'd sailed before with Disney cruises.
KSW would have known which side was the pier and which was the open sea; imo.
She is an odd one to figure out... but she's not stupid.
She'd know the difference between 'port' and 'starboard'.
Do they still call it that ?
Where's that poster who was going on a cruise ?
Eta : Sorry it was "they'll get you"; but I think it was a different person either going on or returning from a cruise.
Same line but a different ship.
And a similar window type, I think ??

My query about the water was thinking along a different theory, that may be revealed at the court trial if SA doesn't take any plea deal offered.
As far as I know he has refused any deals.
He and Chloe's parents are not showing signs of backing down and they will fight for their payout until the bitter end.
Or so it would appear.
Someone pointed out in an earlier thread that SA being jailed for 3 years or so might or might not affect the lawsuit.
Wonder if Winkleman is still hanging on to the Wiegands' ?

I'm actually sailing on Adventure of the Seas next week. It's a Voyager class ship; slightly smaller than Freedom, but with the same design and features. You know I'll be leaning over the railing and taking some pictures!

Have you ever been on one of those large cruise ships? They have signs everywhere telling you which direction is fore and which is aft. They’re very disorientating unless you are a very naturally orientated person. Having just been told her daughter fell out a window (or whatever she was told) I doubt her previous cruising experience informed her about which side of the ship the pier was on at that moment.

And contrary to what many might believe ships don’t always port on the port side.

@LietKynes bbm Yes, seems KSW would have known ship was still docked. KSW's surprise about dock-not-water?
1. Once inside a bldg/cruise liner, some ppl don't have a good sense (even totally sober) of where they are in bldg/ship: stern or aft, port or starboard, which deck, etc. and they get turned around. It's possible KSW just got muddled up about this. {ETA: as @mheido67 posted. }
2. ???

Other than KSW possibly getting muddled up about whether she was on port or starboard side, I don't have any ideas.
{{ETA: Oops, I just read back
@mheido67 had a great idea for alternative explanation.
2. In boarding by elevated gangway, from terminal bldg to ship, KSW may not have noticed how close the ship was to the concrete. From Deck 11 looking down she may have expected to see water in a gap she thought there would have been between the ship & concrete. Instead she just saw concrete.}}

It's hard to imagine for those who have never been on ships this big, but it can be very difficult to know which way you're facing. Different ships have different "queues" to tell people which end of the ship they're facing. My favorite was one that had little fish on the carpet. The fish were always swimming towards the front of the ship.

When it comes down to it, it would not have mattered if CW had fallen on the other side of the ship and hit the water. From that height, hitting the water is still like hitting concrete. She would not have survived the fall.

 

[loveandhugs]

bbm
It shows the sunlight on her back as he dangled her forward and let her go ; if that's what you mean by falling.
There's no video of her after SA lurches her little body forward.
And as to the First bolded : I never stated that so please do not ascribe your thoughts as my own.

Very few people except the most cold-hearted would not want to know what another person's actions were that ended their babies' life !
This isn't about Chloe but has become something else entirely.
People are greedy and they can commit premeditated acts.
We don't know this for sure and it depends on what the jury will decide and that's why my comment includes the 'in my opinion'.

Second bolded : He didn't appear to be looking at the floor but at the deck below. so yes he may have watched her fall. Imo.
What we think about why SA stuck his head outside that window will be decided in a court of law and more than likely RCCL will have footage that's more distinct and possibly other angles that have not been shown to the public.

Last thoughts are that I cannot and will not defend a man who arrogantly and foolishly dangles and drops a baby to her death !
Astounding that anyone can.
Most of all her parents.
MOO.

I totally agree, thank you for your posts. I am not Chloe’s parent, but every time I see her picture and think that she is no longer here because of SA’s actions it makes me sad and very angry.

 

[whatsnext]

There was no aversion to launching their lawsuit; that's certain.
Imo.

This! And now it's all about them, even though SA literally dropped her out of that window. This ignorance of the facts by the parents is sickening. Don't they want justice for Chloe ?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Except the video doesn’t really show that. It just shows SA’s careless actions. If they don’t want to watch it they need to stop talking about how they know what happened.

I think they already know just what happened. JMOO

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Yes, about the water... why was she expecting to see water ?
Makes no sense.
The family had been possibly eating at a buffet from the early reports, so they'd been on board for a while and had to know they were still in port ?

BBM Maybe it does actually make sense...IYKWIM? JMOO

 

[Wicked Strong]

I wonder if KW was drawn over to the windows by both SA crying on the floor about thinking there was glass? Then not seeing Chloe by him, looked out the window. I had read many times on WS that after the buffet, Chloe and mom changed into their swim suits, dad and brother were on another deck in a larger pool. I've never read where the others were.

It's always been my thought that even if she couldn't watch the video herself, she would have her business friends and friends of the father (police and lawyers) watch the film for her. They could have then told her in kinder words what the video showed.

MOO