IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[Kindred]

The purple square looks almost like a speaker ? I wonder if it’s one where the ships’ “horn” sounds prior to announcements?

I saw these as loud speakers.

you know what I zoomed in on it more and I think you're right. I kept seeing them on the video and he moves so fast and I couldn't make out wtf it was but I went back to where there is a clearer image of the speakers and I think you guys are right.

 

[al66pine]

What is on ceiling/wall of Level/Deck 11?

View attachment 213119 ...
from here

Freedom of the Seas - opening window???

@Kindred re pix aimed at/focused on ceiling, cameras and ???

Is it possible some of the unidentified objects in pix are sprinklers, part of a fire suppression system?
I can't make out much of pix on my tablet, so just a wild guess.

 

[al66pine]

Ebullient and Oleaginous?

So.. Eddie Haskell?

Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner: @Safeguard . Pls stop by the Cleavers' house to pick up today's prize.

 

[they'll get you]

you know what I zoomed in on it more and I think you're right. I kept seeing them on the video and he moves so fast and I couldn't make out wtf it was but I went back to where there is a clearer image of the speakers and I think you guys are right.

Two heads are better than one sometimes.

Those speakers are hell loud when they announce muster!

 

[MyBelle]

Oh yeah, I get it. And now my hubby's in on the debate, lol. I personally don't see RCCL being responsible to anticipate someone acting stupidly but I'm trying to see what counter arguments someone on a jury in this case might consider.

If the case is an argument of the so-called "reasonable person" then yes, there's no way RCCL could anticipate an adult putting a child in danger, knowing that ship policy forbids climbing on the rail. My daughter's argument is that when talking about civil negligence there may be precedence that in some cases companies do end up being held at least partially responsible for not anticipating unreasonable actions such as the McDonald's hot coffee case.

The McDonald's case had plenty of claims to support it and the victim was considered to be a reasonable person. McDonald's knew keeping hot coffee at that temperature could cause severe burns and they did it anyway as a matter of policy.

There will be counter arguments in this case. I doubt this family is the only family who has brought lawsuit against RC for attractive nuisance. It isn't acting stupidly if the grandfather believed the window was closed. All photos I've seen show ALL the windows closed but the one. CW didn't climb on the railing; her grandfather said he used it to rest her body upon it.

I doubt any of those windows in that area of the ship currently open. I'm betting they were sealed after this unfortunate tragedy just as Disney sealed off the lagoon after the death of Lane Graves.

JMO

 

[they'll get you]

The McDonald's case had plenty of claims to support it and the victim was considered to be a reasonable person. McDonald's knew keeping hot coffee at that temperature could cause severe burns and they did it anyway as a matter of policy.

There will be counter arguments in this case. I doubt this family is the only family who has brought lawsuit against RC for attractive nuisance. It isn't acting stupidly if the grandfather believed the window was closed. All photos I've seen show ALL the windows closed but the one. CW didn't climb on the railing; her grandfather said he used it to rest her body upon it.

I doubt any of those windows in that area of the ship currently open. I'm betting they were sealed after this unfortunate tragedy just as Disney sealed off the lagoon after the death of Lane Graves.

JMO

Ok that’s my homework when I hit the Voyager in 5-6 weeks. I’ll test the windows sliding, height and I’ll check for cameras on the pool deck. I’ll try for videos and photos too.

Freedom isn’t a sister ship but in that video it looked everything similar so I’ll do my best.

 

[al66pine]

@MyBelle Good to see you back.
Maybe you can answer questions (I've asked twice before this third time) about your post from a few days ago. Here we go.
--------------------------------------
What Did CBS Reporters Say? "None...Agrees that It is a Crime?" Did They Say That? So?
↑MyBelle post:
....this national CBS story from today makes no mention of police and none of the news panel agrees that it is a crime. Thanks!
↑Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship

@MyBelle sbm On ^ post , you said:
"....CBS story from today makes no mention of police and none of the news panel agrees that it is a crime....Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship" bbm

Q 1. Is your post referring to ^ link? Or a different link?

Q 2. If same link, pls note timestamps at which each reporter says/agrees G'pa's action(s) is not a crime.
I watched and listened several times and do not hear any of the dispute it is a crime. Detail below.

Q 3. Are/were any/all of these reporters attorneys?
If the reporters are not attys, I'm not denigrating them or their opinions, on that basis, but I believe numerous posters here know more about circumstances and actions on the cruiseship, more about the background of G'father & Mom & Dad, and have analytic skills equal to or exceeding some national news reporters. Imo some of our posters have a more informed view of the case than these reporters who have to cover many stories daily.

Q 4. Have any/all of these four reporters seen cruiseline's vid(s)?
If so, I think they would be given extensive air time, so doubtful imo. In that regard, those reporters and our posters here are on a level field.

If answers are 'no' to Q 3 & Q 4, I'm inclined to give the reporters' opinions the same weight and credibility as a 'person on the street' interview. Others might give them more credit. Maybe what the reporters say is indicative of what a jury may think, before seeing and hearing the vid and other evidence. I'm just saying their statements are not infallible, and their opinions are their opinions.

Q5. Does linked CBS vid support the conclusion, that none "agrees that it is a crime?"
I'm interpreting these comments as sympathetic to all in the family and hearing some questions about the circumstances. I'm not seeing or hearing four panelists as saying - no crime.

Finally on ^ linked vid, here's what I saw and heard.
Gayle's intro, then ~ a couple min of Jerrika(?) delivering body of story.
Starting ~ 2 min:50 sec's, Gayle/Red Dress says ~ Seems like a tragic accident.
Then Purple Tie says ~ I don't see why they would indict unless the fam was for it.
Then Jerrika(?)/Black Dress/Plaid Skirt says ~ It's negligent homicide, so not intentional. Have to see how it plays out.
Striped Tie says ~ $80,000 bond is not nothing. In pix you see glass, glass, glass, open window, glass, glass, glass.

Q 6. Did I miss the parts where they said no crime? Maybe I missed/misinterp'ed something which I've done before and undoubtedly will again.
-------------------------------------------------

 

[Kindred]

What is on ceiling/wall of Level/Deck 11?

@Kindred re pix aimed at/focused on ceiling, cameras and ???

Is it possible some of the unidentified objects in pix are sprinklers, part of a fire suppression system?
I can't make out much of pix on my tablet, so just a wild guess.

That's why I only focused on things that look like they might be cameras. Sprinklers are typically metallic and uniquely shaped so they'd be hard to be confused. And I stayed away from anything flush that looked like recessed lighting. The red circles are definitely fish eye cameras. I can find multiple good shots of those. It's the middle ones that are a little more ambiguous. They are not as close together but if they're just focused on the length of the walkway they don't need to be, and the two in the pic could be close because they're back to back and facing opposite directions.

There is one other shape in there closer to the windows that may be a camera but it's not clear in that photo. It's not angled like the middle ones are and it's hard on the video to try and catch them. I'll see what other screenshots I can manage to get

Ok that’s my homework when I hit the Voyager in 5-6 weeks. I’ll test the windows sliding, height and I’ll check for cameras on the pool deck. I’ll try for videos and photos too.

Freedom isn’t a sister ship but in that video it looked everything similar so I’ll do my best.

Even if it isn't a perfect match it will still give us an idea of what to be looking for in other pics/videos. You will be our hero.

 

[Kindred]

Not sure but did anyone share this press conference Winkleman gave on the tuesday after the accident?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=726091487824254

 

[Midwestmom2019]

This is not from the video but a photo from a guest on a previous cruise. .....The green diamonds in the middle look like they might be cameras that are directed facing up and down the walkway, but it's hard to tell for sure. The purple square is what I'm really curious about.

View attachment 213119
from here Freedom of the Seas - opening window???

Respectfully snipped:

The ship flies the Bahamian flag. I bet cameras colors listed in the info for all Bahamian ships. Also RCCL posts other world shipping organizations as the organizations that they follow for safety. I bet quick research will show you the reasons for colors. Can’t look. Dropped table on toe and woke up from pain.
Going back to sleep, I hope.

And thank you for acknowledging McDonald coffee case. No doubt McD has spun this case to cover what happened. The photos of this woman’s burned split skin and muscles in her thighs changed the entire case. I guess they were enough to make some jurors violently ill. McD still serves outrageously hot coffee. I wait 5 minutes before I even attempt to drink it. But at least they post signs declaring warning of we serve very hot coffee. Still not drinkable as served.
Safety glass thats crumbles into pellets and not shards is credited to plaintiff lawyers. So are garage doors that automatically stop when a child is playing beat the door to the ground game. Pool filters at the bottom of the floor that are way smaller and covered by permanent grates are all bc of plaintiffs lawyers.
We don’t chase ambulances. Injured people seek us out. If a dr. cuts off your healthy leg, instead of the one with gangrene or cancer, you will be the first to find us and we’ll help you with out legal fees until we win your case. If, God forbid we lose, you don’t owe us anything for all the work done. Not our time. Not our expenses. We take the risk bc we believe you deserve to be able to fight the big Goliath.
That may be the case here as well. I don’t know. I haven’t seen the windows. The railings. The location of the tragedy. From what we do know, it’s appearing less and less likely that RCCL is at fault. But wait until all the evidence is presented.

Yes. There are some less than desirable lawyers. There are some slime balls. There are slime ball politicians. Human traffickers. Drug dealers. There are rotten apples in all occupations. But the lawyer’s job is zealous representations of their client. They cannot be a shrinking violet. I guarantee you RCCL hires the best lawyers they can find to protect their ships, their employees and their reputations. Any potential injured paying party has that same right. Let them fight it out. It’ll all come out in the end. It appears obnoxious bc most of us never witness a bloody court fight. Most of us never witness a bloody murder. Or a bloody surgery to save the life of a soldier. Give them a chance to present the story. Then make your decisions. Juries almost always make the right decisions. Whether it’s for RCCL or passengers.

 

[Kindred]

The ship flies the Bahamian flag. I bet cameras colors listed in the info for all Bahamian ships. Also RCCL posts other world shipping organizations as the organizations that they follow for safety. I bet quick research will show you the reasons for colors. Can’t look. Dropped table on toe and woke up from pain.
Going back to sleep, I hope.

I think you're too sleepy and you'll understand better when you come back more awake. The "colors" are put there by me to identify what I was referring to in the photo. There are no colors put anywhere by RC so no need to research anything.

Here's the original photo:

Here's the one I added colors shapes to as to highlight what I was referring to:



I do hope you manage to get some more sleep and your toe feels better

 

[jjenny]

I suppose that there are cases were a company is held responsible for damages that they may not have anticipated from some customer action.

McDonald’s got nailed in that lawsuit bc they refused to pay for medical care for the plaintiff. Plaintiff was forced to trial. The coffee burned the woman so bad that her inner legs skin split open and burned the muscles in her inner thighs. It was boiling. And the store had been repeatedly told by customers that they served scalding hot coffee. The jury awarded the huge amount bc the McDonald’s representative was so arrogant defending McDonald’s and so cruel to the plaintiff at the time of the trial. The plaintiff’s lawyer asked him how much money does McDonald’s make a day worldwide from the sale of coffee? McDonald’s guy smirked, laughed and said however many millions of dollars they make. $x million. And that’s why the jury awarded the $xmillion.
That’s the other side of the story.
It’s amazing that there are two sides to every story. And the truth is someplace in the middle.
Now, back at the ranch...

As far as I am concerned, if one doesn't want to get burned by a hot coffee, one shouldn't stick a cup of hot coffee in between ones legs.

 

[neesaki]

I agree. There's something seriously wrong with this man's thinking IMO, I can't get my head around why?
Maybe he had a cruel streak and possibly resented Chloe.

I’ve been thinking something like that, as in sadistic. Similar to someone who taunts tigers in a cage. Or, pulls little girls hair for fun, or worse.... and they laugh, they’re just “playing”.

 

[Medstudies]

To answer some questions in regard to RCCL/CCTV:
AI On Cruise Ships: The Fascinating Ways Royal Caribbean Uses Facial Recognition And Machine Vision

...
“We have massive ships – we didn’t want to take them out of service, gut them and put sensors in, so we worked with Microsoft to understand how we could leverage our existing and somewhat antiquated CCTV cameras.

“Microsoft was a great partner … we threw our data scientists at the problem, and we’ve been able to take old cameras, as well as fisheye cameras, and detect humans through the use of AI.

so even though the cameras may appear to be old school, they are getting great images. ...

“A vital tool in achieving this aim was the deployment of facial recognition technology. It uses computer-vision equipped cameras that can recognize travelers as they board, cutting down the need for verifying identity documents and travel passes manually. “

 

[Medstudies]

As far as I am concerned, if one doesn't want to get burned by a hot coffee, one shouldn't stick a cup of hot coffee in between ones legs.

I agree.

And not arguing (really!). in the case of McD’s: they had quietly settled over 700 cases of burns over the previous 10 years. They also served their coffee 40-50 degrees above the recommended industry standard temperature.

they KNEW it was a problem. And that was why they got burned in the end.

 

[Safeguard]

I agree.

And not arguing (really!). in the case of Mc’D’s: they had quietly settled over 700 cases of burns over the previous 10 years. They also served their coffee 40-50 degrees above the recommended industry standard temperature.

they KNEW it was a problem. And that was why they got burned in the end.

I also agree. I never put my coffee in a crotch cradle, but Mcds knows people will be consuming them in a moving vehicle where there is a higher likelihood of spillage.

In this case, the cruise line cannot be expected to know customers may inadvertently place toddlers outside the windows on a ship.

 

[Safeguard]

deleted

 

[they'll get you]

The ship flies the Bahamian flag. I bet cameras colors listed in the info for all Bahamian ships. Also RCCL posts other world shipping organizations as the organizations that they follow for safety. I bet quick research will show you the reasons for colors. Can’t look. Dropped table on toe and woke up from pain.
Going back to sleep, I hope.

And thank you for acknowledging McDonald coffee case. No doubt McD has spun this case to cover what happened. The photos of this woman’s burned split skin and muscles in her thighs changed the entire case. I guess they were enough to make some jurors violently ill. McD still serves outrageously hot coffee. I wait 5 minutes before I even attempt to drink it. But at least they post signs declaring warning of we serve very hot coffee. Still not drinkable as served.
Safety glass thats crumbles into pellets and not shards is credited to plaintiff lawyers. So are garage doors that automatically stop when a child is playing beat the door to the ground game. Pool filters at the bottom of the floor that are way smaller and covered by permanent grates are all bc of plaintiffs lawyers.
We don’t chase ambulances. Injured people seek us out. If a dr. cuts off your healthy leg, instead of the one with gangrene or cancer, you will be the first to find us and we’ll help you with out legal fees until we win your case. If, God forbid we lose, you don’t owe us anything for all the work done. Not our time. Not our expenses. We take the risk bc we believe you deserve to be able to fight the big Goliath.
That may be the case here as well. I don’t know. I haven’t seen the windows. The railings. The location of the tragedy. From what we do know, it’s appearing less and less likely that RCCL is at fault. But wait until all the evidence is presented.

Yes. There are some less than desirable lawyers. There are some slime balls. There are slime ball politicians. Human traffickers. Drug dealers. There are rotten apples in all occupations. But the lawyer’s job is zealous representations of their client. They cannot be a shrinking violet. I guarantee you RCCL hires the best lawyers they can find to protect their ships, their employees and their reputations. Any potential injured paying party has that same right. Let them fight it out. It’ll all come out in the end. It appears obnoxious bc most of us never witness a bloody court fight. Most of us never witness a bloody murder. Or a bloody surgery to save the life of a soldier. Give them a chance to present the story. Then make your decisions. Juries almost always make the right decisions. Whether it’s for RCCL or passengers.

I’m from Australia and heard about the woman being burnt by the coffee. The Chinese whispers had me believe the whole thing was a money grab. I looked up her burns just now and it was a horrific eye-opener. OMG that poor woman! Arghh I felt her pain.

 

[Area52]

The McDonald's case had plenty of claims to support it and the victim was considered to be a reasonable person. McDonald's knew keeping hot coffee at that temperature could cause severe burns and they did it anyway as a matter of policy.

There will be counter arguments in this case. I doubt this family is the only family who has brought lawsuit against RC for attractive nuisance. It isn't acting stupidly if the grandfather believed the window was closed. All photos I've seen show ALL the windows closed but the one. CW didn't climb on the railing; her grandfather said he used it to rest her body upon it.

I doubt any of those windows in that area of the ship currently open. I'm betting they were sealed after this unfortunate tragedy just as Disney sealed off the lagoon after the death of Lane Graves.

JMO

I traveled aboard the Freedom of the Seas about 3 weeks ago. I sat every day in this area of the ship. Every 5th or 6th window slides open, and every day they were open. I really doubt these windows will be permanently closed. Was this a tragedy? Absolutely!
But it could have 100% been avoided if the child was not placed in an area that not meant for sitting. A little common sense by the adult was all that was needed to avoid what happened. Moo

 

[Medstudies]

The McDonald's case had plenty of claims to support it and the victim was considered to be a reasonable person. McDonald's knew keeping hot coffee at that temperature could cause severe burns and they did it anyway as a matter of policy.

There will be counter arguments in this case. I doubt this family is the only family who has brought lawsuit against RC for attractive nuisance. It isn't acting stupidly if the grandfather believed the window was closed. All photos I've seen show ALL the windows closed but the one. CW didn't climb on the railing; her grandfather said he used it to rest her body upon it.

I doubt any of those windows in that area of the ship currently open. I'm betting they were sealed after this unfortunate tragedy just as Disney sealed off the lagoon after the death of Lane Graves.

JMO

In regards to McD’s, I completely agree with you.

but: you have missed several photos that clearly show multiple open windows. I’m not sure why you have missed them - nor does it matter. You’re seeing what you see.

And a point that has been raised several times: if he raised he to sit her on that railing he was in violation of the rules of conduct.

I’m reserving judgment on conviction/punishment until I see whether it was an unfortunate accident or negligent actions.

<modsnip: not victim friendly>