IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #18

[akh]

If LS went off somewhere else, why would JR be saying she was in his apartment and he saw her leave, thus making himself a POI? That lawyer of his doesn't come cheap.

If she really did go to his apartment it would look far worse on him to lie about it hoping if he pretends she wasn't there that nobody would be the wiser and he then isn't a POI. He'd need to hope that CR/MB doesn't know she was headed to his apartment, or not to have seen her arrive and go in there. Or he'd need for them to lie for him and start creating the kind of web that creates trouble quickly as it unravels. Especially if you aren't involved with her disappearance but were merely trying to not get tied to being the last known to see her.

Of course once she left his place he could be washing his hands of things. It could very well be he knows where she went after leaving his place and he doesn't want to implicate that person... .for whatever reason...

 

[Darcyline]

I was thinking if she Oded in the drug dealer's apartment and they got positive hits from cadaver dogs they would at least know who to pressure. Right now, they may have absolutely nothing but hearsay.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

I was thinking if she Oded in the drug dealer's apartment and they got positive hits from cadaver dogs they would at least know who to pressure. Right now, they may have absolutely nothing but hearsay.

How does the timing of a "hit" work? Is there a hit if she'd been there 6 months earlier, say? Does that mean that, assuming she'd been there at least once before, the dogs tell you nothing about whether or not she was there that night?

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

Aren't we discussing the rumor that she actually went somewhere else entirely?

I don't believe so. Not before she od'd.

 

[jjenny]

Well cadaver dogs would presumably only hit if there was a dead body.
So if she was somewhere else some other times she would have been alive, and cadaver dogs wouldn't hit there.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

We're assuming here that the dealer is not JR. That seems to be consistent with "rumors" and what northsider was told.

 

[Darcyline]

I am talking specifically about cadaver dogs and not necessarily dogs sniffing for Lauren. Fresh cadaver smell, I am assuming, is not very common so having a dog hit on a dead body laying somewhere in an apartment would be at least a little sign or direction when searching an important POI.

I am not sure if they had a warrant to be able to do that with a random POI or if the body was removed quickly enough the smell may not be detectable anyway.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

Well cadaver dogs would presumably only hit if there was a dead body.
So if she was somewhere else some other times she would have been alive, and cadaver dogs wouldn't hit there.

I gather that they detect decomposing bodies. Does that apply within the timeframe of say an hour?

 

[bessie]

I was thinking if she Oded in the drug dealer's apartment and they got positive hits from cadaver dogs they would at least know who to pressure. Right now, they may have absolutely nothing but hearsay.

How does the timing of a "hit" work? Is there a hit if she'd been there 6 months earlier, say? Does that mean that, assuming she'd been there at least once before, the dogs tell you nothing about whether or not she was there that night?

A cadaver dog would not detect Lauren, but rather the odor of decomposition. If a cadaver dog indicated a body was in one of the locations Lauren was known to be that night, it wouldn't prove anything, but it would be a good hint.

 

[bessie]

I gather that they detect decomposing bodies. Does that apply within the timeframe of say an hour?

posted in earlier threads

I posted this link a couple of threads back.
http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg 1998.pd

Using Hamburg police dogs, tests were conducted with two bodies deceased for less than two hours. The deceased died in hospital and their bodies wrapped in clean blankets before exposure to the carpet squares. One body was in contact with carpet squares for 2 minutes, the other for 10 minutes. In a series of searches using the contaminated squares and control, non-contaminated squares, the dogs had great success detecting the contaminated squares even after 35 days and 65 days respectively. Interesting read!

 

[PineMushroom]

In regards to the use of cadaver dogs, there was an interesting comment on TG's blog a couple of weeks ago that read like an open letter to person(s) involved in an OD/body dump scenario. The person posting asked how one was sure that LS was dead or whether because of her heart condition her heart beat was undetectable by inexperienced panicked hands with no familiarity with medical emergencies and irregular heart conditions. The post stuck with me because it appeared to be written with someone familiar medical emergencies or someone briefed on leading LE theories, etc.

In an OD scenario, the idea that LS could have still been alive when the body hiding plan was executed has kind of stuck with me. Might also explain any non-results of the cadaver dog search of apartments if indeed there were such non-results.

 

[bluebirdii]

Hi everyone. I haven't posted in a while and I've missed a lot of the last two weeks of threads, so I apologize if something I say conflicts with prior info.

I've been chatting about the LS disappearance with some people familiar with the Bloomington party scene, and what they've told me is interesting. This is all hearsay, and I have no idea if it's true or not, but I thought it would be worth passing on.

- LS apparently is a lot heavier into the party/drugs scene than some here have suspected, and would often get together with a particular group of people to do hard drugs, primarily cocaine.

- Prior to going to Sports, LS and other (unnamed) people had done a larger than normal amount of cocaine. While at Sports, LS was indeed incoherent and "practically foaming at the mouth", and she was sent home to Smallwood by her companions.

- Once she got to Smallwood, LS informed someone (unnamed) that she was going to a well-known dealer's house to get more cocaine. That was the last time this particular group saw her.

- It's suspected by this group of people that LS got drugs from this dealer, the dealer let her stay in his place, he passed out, and when he woke up she was dead from an OD, and her body was subsequently dumped.

- The police have been told all of this by multiple people in this group.

I seriously cringed reading this. Especially the practically foaming at the mouth part... Why do young kids / students / young people, etc do this, why do they damage and endanger themselves like this. I just felt really sad reading this.

I know this is just hearsay but it's just my opinion

 

[bluebirdii]

I mean we all partied in college - I never did drugs of any sort - only alcohol (which in itself is also a drug...) But it's like college students these days tend to go over the top and don't know where to stop. You have kids coming from wealthy families, they're beautiful, intelligent and have the world at their feet and their whole life ahead and then all gone.

the above based upon the od scenario, again just an opinion

Be that as it may, this is still tragic and very sad.

 

[Pedrosmom]

That's a very good point and one that has given me pause about this scenario. However, my thoughts on this are that LE may not have any video evidence to go by, and/or is expecting to discover a body at some point.

OR that conflicting stories are being related by people inside the group (i.e., the POIs such as JR, DR, CR) and people outside the group, leading to a we said/they said situation with no detectable physical evidence. I'm not sure.

It is my understanding that LE acknowledges that the witness sighting of a man, darker skinned, with side burns, (resembling one of the POIs) with a girl, resembling LS, over his shoulder and basically incoherent. Now, LE states that the witness' timing is different than what they believe. This must be because of video evidence they have. They DO NOT discount this sighting, only the time. It was posted earlier in these threads that the direction of this man/girl was not toward her apt and in a direction where cameras would be minimal at best.

All of this makes me believe that while this theory of her ODing and passing out on the couch, then someone getting rid of the body, takes into account a POI that isn't mentioned here but should be as his description matches the witness' rather well. Then I wonder if LE even did a line up for this witness? That would be rather easy while everyone is in town. Or, perhaps she identified him through pictures and they are keeping mum on this.

This witness account has always puzzled me as to the weight LE has given it as well as discounted it. They claim her time was off. OK, if that's all, is her account of this scene spot on? She must be on video somewhere along her route as well. This would make the last sighting of LS later than what LE reveals, because of this witness sighting. Am I right? Are they just not disclosing? Are they just not revealing their belief on whether this was a sound sighting in the hopes that the person who allegedly had LS thrown over his shoulder might come forward and say, hey, yeah, that's me. That would be a start to answer the question - WELL WHERE DID YOU BRING HER?

At first, I was on the fence, seriously about this witness because it seemed LE discounted it from the get go as unverified. Then they go a little further and say we're not saying that didn't happen, just that it didn't happen at that time.

I'm starting to question the intelligence of the BPD.

I think this is the person they are seriously looking at, in addition to his "friends" and others he was connected to.

Or, this never happened and this girl is just making this whole thing up.

I doubt the latter.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

northside, i may have missed this but did you say the address of the alleged dd is 10th and college? tia.

 

[Jupiter812]

Thank you, Northsider! This scenario is what I was trying to unfold last week when I laid out here the known drug suppliers and wanting to "Follow the Supplier," as in "Follow the Money." But I didn't get any takers. I named JR, DR, and ZO. ZO is not a named POI and he hails from Indianapolis and is the roommate of AB who is rumored to be LS's carrier at 10th and College. There are other details about ZO that can found on Tony Gatto's site.

I recently started to sense that something was up. Just pieces and parts and not being able to connect them. And yesterday the local paper had a sizeable article about cocaine. It reads almost like a PSA in some respects, but it is basically an educational piece about cocaine in our community. I thought that odd and telling. Of course Detroit is mentioned as a main origin of coke and we know who lives near there.

Thanks again for sharing.

 

[bloom54]

I remember a case where dog(s) were used to check the dumpster where a man worked when LE suspected he killed his wife and young child. The dumpster had been emptied some time before it was checked by the dogs, but they still got a hit indicating the missing woman had been in it. It was at that point that LE when through the long and difficult task of going thru the landfill. The landfill search did find his wife, never his child...

I wonder if LE had used dogs to check the dumpsters and not getting a hit is the reason landfills haven't been searched in Lauren's case.

If the transfer station was searched early on (and that could have been what the BPD was referring to), then I don't see why the landfill would need to be searched. My understanding is that ALL trash goes first to the transfer station.

 

[bloom54]

Also following that story, I wonder if it assumes that JR is covering for Drug Dealer or if she went to the Drug Dealer after visiting JR. I am assuming one of the POI's isn't the Drug Dealer from your wording.

Interesting... I was assuming just the opposite!

 

[bloom54]

That's a very good point and one that has given me pause about this scenario. However, my thoughts on this are that LE may not have any video evidence to go by, and/or is expecting to discover a body at some point.

OR that conflicting stories are being related by people inside the group (i.e., the POIs such as JR, DR, CR) and people outside the group, leading to a we said/they said situation with no detectable physical evidence. I'm not sure.

They may also not be in a rush. If they know who it is, they have time to build a case. It's frustrating to us, but that's not their problem!

 

[eqh]

They may also not be in a rush. If they know who it is, they have time to build a case. It's frustrating to us, but that's not their problem!

But I think they really do need to find a body though. Even if a cadaver dog gets a whiff of something on the sofa or in a car trunk, can they say beyond reasonable doubt it was Lauren? Maybe, maybe not -- especially if it was previously owned.

And then, what would they charge? Can't charge manslaughter or murder without a body AND a cause of death.

They can't charge someone with dealing drugs without hard evidence, either. I think we can assume they'd get rid of drug evidence quickly.

At best, they could build a weak-ish and highly circumstantial case for the charge of... illegally dumping a body and just maybe lying to the police.

Which, in the grand scheme of things, isn't much.