IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #23

[luna80]

Whether it’s for legal reasons or some sort of ploy, I do not understand why LE refuses to identify who was with LS in the alley but it really makes me question what went on there. If you identify one, does it rule out the others, is it better to keep them all guessing, are there more than one???

I’m beginning to think there were more persons involved in the alley than just CR & LS and because of what ensued CR bailed on LS and went home without her. Something doesn’t sit right with MB’s story of putting CR to bed and sending LS off. I can see how MB’s statement basically covers for CR’s abandonment of LS in referencing LS’s desire to party more. With that train of thought LS never made it to CR’s or JR’s. At one point there was a report that LS had been seen arguing with three individuals in the alley. ZO, AB and CR??? Another good punch might make CR bail. Now what if JW showed up in the picture, I can see how that could make CR bail as well. This could have taken place off camera after the 2:51 timestamp. Maybe even a scuffle of sorts with LS dropping her keys…. I can see either AB or JW as the mystery man asking LS if he could take her home, for the time could easily be 3:30-3:40am at this point, if they had headed out to College Ave, maybe past the Dr.s office, where there weren’t any cameras.

I’ve often pondered the reason for the 4:15 call. While never once believing LS made it, I’ve tended to believe in JR for the sheer fact that he claimed to see LS leave his apt at 4:30am. Why would he say something like that if it wasn’t true? Why put yourself in that situation??? Either it’s true, your timeline is off or…. what I now favor, he’s covering for himself or for someone else.

I wonder if RS has come to the same conclusion in making his statement about JR "I know he claims she made the call, but I have no reason to believe she actually made the call,” In other words, what I hear RS saying is; if LS didn’t make the call, LS wasn’t there and if LS wasn’t there, you didn’t see her leave at 4:30am.

If the above is true and LS was not at JR’s apt, why then did JR call DR at 4:15am, certainly not to chat? Whatever the reason he implicated himself with traceable evidence. Was he privy to certain info that he wanted to share, was he concerned about LS thru rumor or talk, was he worried about DR/DD? Was the call an attempt to find HT, rumor has it she was at DR’s that night? Any of those concerns are worthy of a phone call without being “guilty” or terribly complicit in anything. Or was the call to DR a signal that the “clean up” was done or something equally sinister, which could certainly imply involvement.

Regarding the third option of why JR may have claimed what he did; to cover for someone, on his own or per the request of another – I’m thinking this might be where dear old HT comes into play. I believe she has something to cover for, that she knew of the 4:15am call to DR, that she knew it would be questioned and that she found a convenient way to displace/protect/deflect what transpired earlier by getting JR to state LS left his place at 4:30.

In my opinion, whoever slung LS over their shoulder at 3:38am and whoever helped dispose of LS is whom I think HT is covering for and whom she quite possibly got JR to cover for as well.


<snipped>
To answer your question about HT and AB. Imo the connection here is relevant for several reasons.
I don't believe that the timeline reported by JR is correct.
I suspect that:
- ZO and AB were at SW per HT's request.
- ZO assaulted CR based on something that HT told him
- HT "helped" JR with the timeline to cover the fact that LS actually left 5 North at 3:30am
- AB was spotted "assisting" LS by an eye witness at 3:38am
- LS was removed from the area by AB or AB and ZO.
- JR is covering for HT and AB and trying to conceal his drug activity.
- JW was not involved.
- Crazy as it sounds...I think HT had very intimate feelings for LS and that is what started the ball rolling so-to-speak.<snipped>

I can fathom that HT was not pleased with her perception of LS’s intentions that night, especially those regarding CR and can see her interceding. Whether it be fueling ZO into action and/or informing JW of LS’s actions and her condition, I can only guess, but do strongly feel that HT was possessive/jealous in her actions toward LS.

I suspect HT touted the 4:30 timeline to cover the actions of ZO, AB and/or JW’s & her own involvement. I don’t think it was to help JR in the least; rather she wanted his help in selling her timeline. I can’t help but think that maybe HT blamed LS for what happened that night and felt compelled to help the “innocent victims” of this circumstance, they didn’t OD; LS allegedly did??? Her words regarding LS’s actions of “going too far this time” seem very telling.

I think it was either AB or JW who was spotted assisting LS at 3:38am

I haven’t enough info to reason whether LS was removed directly from the area in question or whether she was taken back to JR’s. If LS was taken back to JR’s, JR’s definitely involved, though I’m not convinced he is. The 4:15am phone call is pivotal?

I’m not so sure about JW – the timeline fits in that he allegedly went to bed around 2:30 – wouldn’t take long to get on over to SW if HT tipped him off.


Of course all of this is my opinion and pure speculation at that.

 

[Pedrosmom]

I think these parents have been patient enought with the BPD and since most of these POIs crossed state lines the morning of the crime, possibly taking the body with them, the FBI should have been brought into this case since June 3. This was far to large to reach for BPD and shame on them for not seeking the resources of the FBI and/or DEA while precious time went by and their daughter has not been found. There's a lot of ego, IMO, that needs to be tamed and this case needs to move to a higher level because IMO it hasn't moved a bit since June 3. The 10 POIs went home, enjoyed their summers, taveled and went about their lives (except for the few in summer school) while the Spierers stayed in Bton looking for their daughter. A lot has been discussed on this forum that doesn't make sense as to why LE is and has dismissed certain elements of this crime. Now they claim they can question the POIs since they are back at school makes me sick to my stomach. Let them go home and corroborate their stories? WTF?That's something the FBI could have done June 3 when most of the silver spooners jumped into their luxury cars and drove home to mommy and daddy's fat cash pocket. The DEA should have busted open 5 North with a firecracker on June 4 as soon as evidence pointed to drugs and an apparent known (out of town) big time dealer tweeting about his presence in town. Time was lost. Lauren has not been found. Everything in this case has pointed to federal involvement since day 1. I would not be surprised if the Bton police force was reduced to cut costs over the summer since there were 15K less kids in town.

I'm so sorry Spierer family. You have the patience of a saint but I don't believe Bton LE is capable of finding Lauren. I'm praying you'll have the strength to carry on.

 

[bluebirdii]

I think these parents have been patient enought with the BPD and since most of these POIs crossed state lines the morning of the crime, possibly taking the body with them, the FBI should have been brought into this case since June 3. This was far to large to reach for BPD and shame on them for not seeking the resources of the FBI and/or DEA while precious time went by and their daughter has not been found. There's a lot of ego, IMO, that needs to be tamed and this case needs to move to a higher level because IMO it hasn't moved a bit since June 3. The 10 POIs went home, enjoyed their summers, taveled and went about their lives (except for the few in summer school) while the Spierers stayed in Bton looking for their daughter. A lot has been discussed on this forum that doesn't make sense as to why LE is and has dismissed certain elements of this crime. Now they claim they can question the POIs since they are back at school makes me sick to my stomach. Let them go home and corroborate their stories? WTF?That's something the FBI could have done June 3 when most of the silver spooners jumped into their luxury cars and drove home to mommy and daddy's fat cash pocket. The DEA should have busted open 5 North with a firecracker on June 4 as soon as evidence pointed to drugs and an apparent known (out of town) big time dealer tweeting about his presence in town. Time was lost. Lauren has not been found. Everything in this case has pointed to federal involvement since day 1. I would not be surprised if the Bton police force was reduced to cut costs over the summer since there were 15K less kids in town.

I'm so sorry Spierer family. You have the patience of a saint but I don't believe Bton LE is capable of finding Lauren. I'm praying you'll have the strength to carry on.

Thank you so much for your post. I completely agree! This is terribly frustrating - how different some things could've been had this been handled correctly from the beginning - i.e. getting fbi & dea involved.

I'm also quite fed up with these spoilt brats, get a spine and stop hiding as little children.

 

[Gabby66]

but... you wouldn't be drilling if you didn't want to know... and my bet is they just don't want to know... it's easier -- more comfortable -- that way

I have to disagree. I think the "not knowing" would kill most parents. I seriously think it would be easier to deal with a result and yes, even prison, than it would be to not have a clue if your child was even involved. It might be kinda like how they say the "not knowing" of what happened to Lauren may be harder for the Spierers, than finding her dead and solving a crime. One eats away at you, while the other albeit difficult, brings some closure. Honestly though, unless we've been in their shoes, I don't think we can guess how they have reacted. I do know someone whose been in similar shoes (not nearly as serious of a crime) and it just about killed them parents, not knowing if their child was guilty or not (he was). In fact, it almost broke up their very loving marriage. Once they learned that he was guilty, they grew stronger.

I'm not directing this to you personally b/c I don't remember who has posted things to make me assume this, but I get the feeling that some people think that just because these parents are presumably rich and can afford high-dollar attorneys, that somehow translates to "they don't care" or "don't want to know" or perhaps even "want to cover up their son's crime". I just don't agree with that. I can say certifiably that if my son was in this situation, he'd have the best attorney we could afford. If he were guilty, he'd need one to help guide him through the process. He'd need someone who understood the system, and who could ensure that he was only charged with the portion of the crime that HE personally committed. I'd be hurt and angry, but would still love my son and want to be fair. This is when he'd need me most. If he was innocent, he'd need an attorney even more. I think NO ONE wants to believe his/her son is capable of something like this and my guess is that aside from some minor offenses, these were basically "good" kids. I'd think that at least in the beginning, parents would be believing their son.

The mere fact that these parents have not contacted the Spierers does not tell me that they do not care. I'm nearly certain that the boys' attorneys have told their parents something like, "DO NOT contact anyone, including the Spierers if you want me to help your son." As difficult as that may be for most anyone, think about it. They have their own son whom they love dearly and perhaps do not believe he committed a crime, who needs their love and support. On the other hand, they have a stranger whose daughter is missing, whom their son had only known for a couple of weeks (using CR as an example here), and he claims that he was violently beaten and doesn't remember a thing, making him obviously too "out of it" to have either A. done anything bad to Lauren or B. helped in hiding her body. It would be very very difficult for many parents in that situation to not reach out to the Spierers but I guess if you believe your son in that situation, and have a high $ attorney telling you NOT to do so, it doesn't surprise me that many parents wouldn't. That's what you're paying the attorney for - to tell you what to do and not do. I'm not saying that this would be MY reaction, but just that it doesn't surprise me and I don't interpret that as the parents being cold or callous. Their best interest is always going to lie with their son, before any missing stranger, with whose crime they do not even believe their son was involved.

These are boys who are going on with their lives, returning to school, and "saving face" in front of their friends. Business as usual. My gut tells me that NONE of these boys has given his parents any reason to believe he's guilty. I think one is carrying a big secret and isn't about to crack. I'm starting to think that maybe only one was involved in the coverup. More than one - too much to keep straight and something may have leaked by now. I can bet that their attorneys have told them that until there's a body, or criminal charges, there's no crime. I'm beginning to think that whomever did this feels very confident that she's hidden in a way that she won't be found and he doesn't appear to be worried. I mean really, they show up back on campus? I'd guess that their attorneys suggested this to carry on as usual, but imagine how difficult that would be. It's very brazen and yet, they each did it. If they can do THAT, I'm thinking they're all pretty confident and that scares me.

 

[Esther]

Respectfully, I think the notion that someone slipped something in their drinks is off base. Talk amongst town has suggested that Lauren was heard that he had done Xanax and was wasted, etc. Reports have also suggested that they were kicked out of the bar. This could be true given they only stayed at the bar for 45 mins. Maybe they were forced to leave, and that was when Lauren forgot about her phone and shoes?

I envision her being in such an altered state, that she wanted to be free of any encumberances - shoes, keys, whatever. So much so, that walking on stones in an alley didn't bother her much. Alcohol, to the best of my knowledge doesn't get you in that condition, but drugs sure could. Also, no way she had so much energy to run around at that time of night w/out being wired up. Sounds like a mix of different drugs.

Also, my feeling is the POIs (POSs) are protecting a dealer, who is threatening them or their families if they talk. That would be a pretty strong motivator to keep quiet.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

This new statement from the parents is very interesting. It strongly suggests that the Post, and other news outlets that cited the Post, got it wrong (surprise) on CR taking the poly - that it was probably JR (who we know took a private poly) instead. And while it's been reported that CR provided a DNA sample, apparently Salzmann has refused to confirm that (which doesn't mean he didn't do it). Again, interesting.

However, I still have to come back to the fact that the night ultimately goes through JR's admission that he saw LS at 4:30; the road leads to JR, not CR. I think the import of the family's statement is that they need to establish the drug usage that was happening that night, because it is what leads to liability for LS's death, and CR may be in the best position to provide that evidence. First you have to establish that there were drugs. Then you establish who the suppliers/dealers were. Then you decide who you want to charge.

As for the focus on the 4:15 call, I think the parents have already established that they also don't believe the 4:30 story. But they may have specific evidence to contradict the call allegation. Or they may not, but simply want to ratchet up the pressure on JR/extend the coverage about their not buying his story.

 

[Gabby66]

If I recall, the Spierers had said at one time that they had not viewed the video taken during the alley walk to 5 North. Even if they haven't viewed it, I'd guess that LE have provided some basic details. I keep wondering WHY they wouldn't have viewed that video and what's the big secret about not naming the "acquaintance" who was with her? There's something fishy lying in this piece.

We have confirmation that CR was punched (was this confirmed by LE or CR's attorney?)
We're told that LS left SW
We're told that LS is shown on video with an "acquaintance" "making their way" to 5 North
We're told the last name she's confirmed to be on video - 2:58 perhaps? - and where
We're told that she helps MB put CR to bed.

My big question is who confirmed that CR was punched? If it was LE, then something is up with the alley video. I say this because:

A. Why would LE confirm that CR is with her at SW, where he gets punched, then later confirm that she helped put him to bed, but not confirm that he was walking with her on the way to his place? That would make no sense.

B. Why didn't the Spierers view this video? Makes me think that something "went down" in the alley from which they wanted (or LE suggested) to be spared. I'm thinking visible drug use or sex. Drunkenness, foaming at the mouth, etc. would be an awful condition to view of your petite darling daughter, but I don't think that alone would be something that I as a parent would feel that I needed to be spared. I'd think they'd want to see her state of being, though I can imagine no parent would want to watch their daughter having sex.

The reason I bring this up is because Mr. Spierer specifically stated recently that he doesn't believe (or questions) that LS could have been helping CR back to his place, given her size. If the video shows that to be true (or even kinda true), why would he say that? IF the video shows CR and LS kinda supporting each other along the way, why say that? IF the video shows that it's OBVIOUS she didn't help him back (he wasn't even in the video), why say that? It wouldn't be necessary to question. However - IF the video shows them walking back, they have sex or do drugs, or someone else comes into the scene, etc., he could have had questions. IMO that video is a key piece and there's a reason that LE is being so secretive about it. I also think that the Spierers are being very well-counseled on what to say and how to say it. This was just put out as a question: Think about it students, how could our tiny daughter help your big friend back to his apartment? I think from the video, they already know whether she was doing just that or not, and now I see how great it is that they haven't released that video. We, the public, and the college kids, do not know what that video shows. This was just posed as a question for the students to ponder and to begin to help poke holes in things that they may have heard or seen that night.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

We have confirmation that CR was punched (was this confirmed by LE or CR's attorney?)

It was confirmed by CR's attorney.

B. Why didn't the Spierers view this video? Makes me think that something "went down" in the alley from which they wanted (or LE suggested) to be spared. I'm thinking visible drug use or sex. Drunkenness, foaming at the mouth, etc. would be an awful condition to view of your petite darling daughter, but I don't think that alone would be something that I as a parent would feel that I needed to be spared. I'd think they'd want to see her state of being, though I can imagine no parent would want to watch their daughter having sex.

Perhaps I live in an alternate universe, but I think it's far, far more likely the parents would be willing to watch LS doing drugs, say, than being in a dangerously impaired state that ultimately led to her death. And if LS were having sex in the alley (which I also think they might be more likely to watch), why would a DNA sample have been requested from CR?

The reason I bring this up is because Mr. Spierer specifically stated recently that he doesn't believe (or questions) that LS could have been helping CR back to his place, given her size.

As in my post above, I believe this again goes to establishing her drug usage. If CR has to carry her, say, then this is further evidence of her impairment.

 

[Gabby66]

It was confirmed by CR's attorney.

Thanks!

Perhaps I live in an alternate universe, but I think it's far, far more likely the parents would be willing to watch LS doing drugs, say, than being in a dangerously impaired state that ultimately led to her death. And if LS were having sex in the alley (which I also think they might be more likely to watch), why would a DNA sample have been requested from CR?

That's right about the DNA - did they request this of everyone? I can't recall. IF I recall correctly, CR offered one, right? I can see your point about an impaired state possibly leading to her death. I guess I was just thinking of the fact that we don't know how she died and that maybe she just looked like many other drunk college students, but this is valid. It makes me think ever more so that there's confirmation on that video that shows there's no way she was in any state to leave JR's. There has to be SOMETHING that points to the Spierers not believing JR/CR. Obviously if she's really that bad off, there's no way she'd even be thinking about a lost cell (no call to DR). I think this video is KEY to whom and what they suspect. They've talked a lot about doing the right thing, calling 911, not just walking by and they've talked a lot about LS's cell. IMO those two things really point towards them not believing she was capable of using the phone and that they feel she ODd

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

An additional note to point out a few things that the parents do not seem to be talking about/people whose stories they do not seem to be questioning:
1. a white truck
2. a robbery, rape, or other violent crime
3. JW
4. HT
5. ZO/AB (unless one or both are in fact involved dealers/suppliers, but I have yet to see any good evidence of this)
6. the socioeconomic status of the POIs

I believe a focus on these things is a (possibly intentional) distraction.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

I think these parents have been patient enought with the BPD and since most of these POIs crossed state lines the morning of the crime, possibly taking the body with them, the FBI should have been brought into this case since June 3. This was far to large to reach for BPD and shame on them for not seeking the resources of the FBI and/or DEA while precious time went by and their daughter has not been found.

The FBI has been brought in.

 

[Jupiter812]

I'm glad more people are focusing on and talking about who else might be in the alley!

I haven't read all posts since last night but after listening to RS again, I noticed he said maybe CR would be willing to take a "police polygraph." I don't recall that detail from Week 1, did that slip by us?

It would be interesting if LE administered the poly to CR and asked: Did you fake the amensia story? :waitasec:

Summary of DNA and polys:

DNA: In late June WTHR reported "Police said previously that Rosenbaum, Rossman, Rossman's roommate, Mike Beth, and Spierer's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, all provided investigators with DNA."

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28386290/detail.html.

Polys:

JR: Private
CR: Private
JW: Taken but it's unknown whether LE or private: "Asked again whether police administered the test, he replied, "I don't think you are understanding what i (sic) just said to you ... dont (sic) ever talk to me again.""
MB: Taken, Private/LE

Final comment: Now that I've seen JR on video that second guy in his FB photo is definitely not him. Interesting.

 

[British]

http://www.lohud.com/article/201109...ppearance?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|Frontpage

From the link above:

"The parents of Lauren Spierer say they doubt their daughter was abducted by a stranger and expressed skepticism about the statements of two friends who were among the last people to interact with her."

 

[British]

If CR truly suffered a concussion from the assault then he would have likely suffered other symptoms of such a condition in addition to and more likely than memory loss such as:
- nausea/vomiting
- dizziness
- vertigo and balance
- headache/ blurred vision
- fatigue
- inability to focus
- noticeable behavioral changes

Any or all of these things would / could have inhibited his ability to go about normal daily activities for at least a couple of days, yet he was seen out and about the next day by more than one person.

A true concussion with mild traumatic brain injury enough to cause memory loss will put most people in bed for a day or three and have lingering effects.

Imo if the memory loss is real then it must be the result of drug use and Salzmann is just another BS lawyer for saying otherwise. He has done as much to hinder the progress of this case as anyone by covering for his clients' drug abuse instead of getting down to what really happened. FH

Well said. "Memory loss" in this case suggests something to hide. The question is what? Highly concerning and huge red flag.

 

[phantomthought]

As far as their level of intoxication or impairment while many points can be raised showing LS being intoxicated (leaving her shoes and phone at the bar,a comment from one witness at smallwood referring to a severely intoxicated LS,the video of them leaving smallwood, her loosing her keys in the alley)other than his lawyer and POI roommate I do not see one fact,witness or anything that points to CR being impaired.

 

[Tr.]

An additional note to point out a few things that the parents do not seem to be talking about/people whose stories they do not seem to be questioning:
1. a white truck
2. a robbery, rape, or other violent crime
3. JW
4. HT
5. ZO/AB (unless one or both are in fact involved dealers/suppliers, but I have yet to see any good evidence of this)
6. the socioeconomic status of the POIs

I believe a focus on these things is a (possibly intentional) distraction.

Many think that lack of focus on all the above is irresponsible.

Peculiar thing how some will try to steer the discussion but refuse to provide a theory. Intentional distraction?

 

[jynkal]

Many think that lack of focus on all the above is irresponsible.

Peculiar thing how some will try to steer the discussion but refuse to provide a theory. Intentional distraction?

The parents know more than we do and are the only ones providing information at this point. Some of us choose to focus on this, rather than theories that have not had an official traction for months. There's nothing more to it than that.

 

[Gabby66]

Many think that lack of focus on all the above is irresponsible.

Peculiar thing how some will try to steer the discussion but refuse to provide a theory. Intentional distraction?

I can respect why you feel this way, and since I'm one of the ones who placed emphasis on the white truck again, I can affirm to you that I am NOT in any way causing any such distraction, intentional or otherwise! I don't live in the same state as ANY of the POIs, nor do I know a single one of them, nor know anyone who does. I became "attached" to this case b/c I saw it posted on facebook by a friend who works at IU. She posted something like, "I feel so sorry for the Spierers." I had no idea who they were so I googled them and found this site. I went to college at Purdue years ago and coupled with the fact that I have college-aged kids, the case pulled at my heartstrings. I've never posted on this site before, which of course makes me "suspicious" perhaps. I guess I really don't care whether anyone believes me, b/c A.Respectfully, it doesn't matter much to me what strangers think and B. I can completely understand why someone like you (and others) would be suspicious of a possible intentional distraction. However, I thought I'd come forward and say my part anyway :loser:

Incidentally, I really had no agenda with continuing to discuss the white truck again, other than the fact that someone else brought it up and I was glad b/c while I'm not convinced that it's relevant, I'm also not convinced it isn't. As someone else pointed out, I believe that EVERYTHING should be reevaluated and discussed. I also believe that BBP have made some mistakes, which is understandable.

 

[jynkal]

http://www.lohud.com/article/201109...ppearance?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|Frontpage

From the link above:

"The parents of Lauren Spierer say they doubt their daughter was abducted by a stranger and expressed skepticism about the statements of two friends who were among the last people to interact with her."

I think most of this article just confirms suspicions most of us have had for awhile now. The one thing that stood out to me was the part about JW's lack of communication with Lauren's parents.

"Wolff was the one who alerted Spierer's parents that she was missing, after he was called by a bar employee who saw on her phone that he had been trying to reach her.

Wolff, who said he had planned to get together with Spierer the morning she went missing, joined the search the following weekend. He has had no contact with her parents since then, except for a cordial Father's Day text message that he sent to her father."

They dated for years, both grew up in the same region, Lauren seemed close to her family and he was the first to contact them. If by "following weekend" they mean June 4/5, we are to believe he has only sent one unrelated text to her family since then. Doesn't that seem strange? I have always doubted JW's involvement, and still do, but I find it curious that he hasn't been more united with the parents. If he is totally innocent, he does have an alibi (roommates said he was asleep, texts probably show he never got in touch with Lauren), so why not speak up publicly and even offer support to her family? Something does not seem right with his silence.

My only thought about this is that perhaps the family, police and JW are all in agreement on this in order to keep JW as a "person of interest" and thus to keep JR and the others in the dark about the real focus on suspects.

 

[Jupiter812]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjUk4tygR4A"]Spierer update: Rewards offered, water searches under way - YouTube[/ame]

This is good to review at this point in time. Some important points relevant to our recent discussions start at 0:57 in the video.

It has always bothered me that the start point of his "amnesia" is when they leave Sports and the end point is when he wakes up the next morning.

Another point made is that Salzmann would not answer to reporters which type of poly CR took. Now we have the answer from RS.