IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

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Maybe JR stayed at Sports until it closed and was walking home during the period of time that LS and CR were in the alley/ gravel lot/ 10th & College area. JR might have seen her fall ( and then added the "black eye" detail to his story to boost his credibility).

Does anyone remember reading when JR says he got home that evening after Sports?

Another idea is LS did make it back to CRs , but not JRs... and MB told JR about LS's eyes.

If JR followed on the same route, he would be on the same camera. If he instead walked up N. College past the 10th and College building and then turned to cut through to the Gravel lot then yes. It's not clear if people regularly cut from the Gravel lot over to N. College between those buildings.
Again needing to know JR's timeline that whole evening.

But yes the idea that MB saw her injuries (And didn't say anything about them!!!) is also curious, and either CR or MB could have conveyed this to JR (who became the downstream deception).
 
I'm having trouble accepting that the bar manager's sighting of 3:38 is not correct for the two reasons I stated upthread. For me, part of what works for 3:38 is MB's call to JR at 3:30, a time which could be pivotal in the evening--when she really started to show signs of fading.

Bar mgr said Lauren was semi-conscious (<my words) at 3:38. The mystery man could avoid cameras by walking east on 11th then south on College sidewalk. There are at least two sets of stairs on this side.

But none of this is supported by LE and the PIs. They are in agreement that her time is wrong. I'm having a hard time resigning myself to the fact that this witness testimony is off but I know it is not all that uncommon in general.

I'm in strong agreement with you here. LE can say whatever they want because they are working a case. Not sure why PI's would not look further. What we have seen since the PI statements in June is more that points to the 3:38 time being accurate than being the wrong time. What else do that know (or evidence would they have) that would lead them to emphatically say that is impossible? They would need some hard evidence like camera footage that proves she was somewhere else. Otherwise, if they were simply taking JR's word for it they could not be so sure.
What I am thinking is that they are building a case and don't want to tip their hand, and PI doesn't want to be blamed for ruining it either.
 
Regarding the bar manager's time of sighting...I would have to watch the Lohud interview with the PIs again and I don't feel like doing that right now, but if she is wrong it may be explained this way: She could be the same person as the "older" student who was visiting a boy at 10th and College Apts that night. She may appear on security cam. This would be the same camera that might exist inside the bldg--the one that might have recorded Lauren and CR knocking on friends' door and coming down the stairs as described by PI.

I hope LE and camera technicians have verified without a doubt that the alley cameras time was correct!
 
Regarding the 3:38 witness. Ok Bar Manager, Restaurant manager (that should be easily verified) was sure she saw Lauren being carried.

1) Is this person credible or not? Why or why not? If they are credible, but the issue is time, then why not try to pin down the time better?

2) If she is credible to a point, but they doubt it was LS that she saw, then WHO WAS IT being carried that looked like LS at 3:38 am? Certainly someone could come forward and say... oh yeah that was us... Jane Doe here was drunk, and I carried her home. No one has come forward to claim that prize, but it would eliminate this as a possible lead and theory. There were all sorts of people out and about at 3:00 and apparently even up until 3:38. There were witnesses that heard LS head clunk on the concrete. So between EYES and Cameras it is possible to rule certain things / paths out.
When contrasted with official dog searches, LE should be able to narrow down time frames and paths where there were gaps between witness accounts and camera footage. Would it not make sense not to just ask people who SAW something but also to ask people who were out and about in certain places in certain time frames who SAW NOTHING? This would further narrow the possibilities.
 
I recall initial report of lady being manager of a bar, but then there was clarification that she was a restaurant manager vs bar. This may explain time discrepancy.

I don't recall this. Do you have any more info? To be open that late it would have to be fast food or pizza.
 
Regarding the 3:38 witness. Ok Bar Manager, Restaurant manager (that should be easily verified) was sure she saw Lauren being carried.

1) Is this person credible or not? Why or why not? If they are credible, but the issue is time, then why not try to pin down the time better?

2) If she is credible to a point, but they doubt it was LS that she saw, then WHO WAS IT being carried that looked like LS at 3:38 am? Certainly someone could come forward and say... oh yeah that was us... Jane Doe here was drunk, and I carried her home. No one has come forward to claim that prize, but it would eliminate this as a possible lead and theory. There were all sorts of people out and about at 3:00 and apparently even up until 3:38. There were witnesses that heard LS head clunk on the concrete. So between EYES and Cameras it is possible to rule certain things / paths out.
When contrasted with official dog searches, LE should be able to narrow down time frames and paths where there were gaps between witness accounts and camera footage. Would it not make sense not to just ask people who SAW something but also to ask people who were out and about in certain places in certain time frames who SAW NOTHING? This would further narrow the possibilities.

But they don't seem to doubt she saw Lauren which would leads me to believe no one else has come forward to say "I too was carrying a petite incoherent blonde on the same corner that night."
 
If she wasn't abducted consider this which could apply even if JW did it with cover or help of his roommates:

"Often when teens or young adults close ranks they do it out of loyalty to someone who might be in trouble if the truth comes out," said Cohen, a former school psychologist.

"I think, psychologically, it has the potential to be come an altered reality," she said. "It becomes less and less conflictual as you get more removed from the actual event."

(^ Makes me think of the line, "I talk to them on a regular basis." Or whatever it was that JR said.)

"What's concerning is their ability to live without a clear conscience," Marraccini said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-24-missing-IU-student-spierer_n.htm
 
I don't recall this. Do you have any more info? To be open that late it would have to be fast food or pizza.
Or waffles or donuts. As far as I know, the Waffle House on N College is still open 24/7. Crescent Donuts may be open all night too.
 
The first news report I read was that an older female, bar manager was walking home and saw blonde girl being carried by dark skinned man and I thought sharp features were mentioned. A following news story reported that she was manager of resturant vs bar.
 
Or waffles or donuts. As far as I know, the Waffle House on N College is still open 24/7. Crescent Donuts may be open all night too.

It's been my experience as a waitress, cocktail and otherwise and as a bartender and then later working in HR that 24 hour businesses regardless of what type of business generally will not be working shifts that would have employees getting off work between 2-4am. Most 24 hours business will schedule employees most typically for shifts of 7-7, 11-7, 12-8am, 3pm-11pm, 10am-2pm, 2pm-10pm and so on and so on. It would be highly irregular for an employee of a business that is still open between 12midnight and 7am to have an employee leaving at a time that would place the witness on the way home at 3:38 on the other hand, while it would be typical for a bar or restaurant to be closing around that time, it's also been my experience that the expectation of actually being on the way home at 3:38 after closing at 3am is virtually nil. Particularly for the manager, they would have closing duties that would require them to be last to leave. They would have to add up all the tickets for and count and tip the wait staff out and figure tip out amounts for every member of the wait staff for every eligible member of the bar staff on duty and count and reconcile the cash drawers and prepare those drawers for the next day, inspect the work areas for readiness for the opening shift and fix anything that isn't ready (there are always things to fix) they would often need to prepare cash deposits, make notes for the opening manager, prepare stock order forms, etc etc and then they would also be the person required to leave last in order to set alarms and lock up. The likelihood of all of this being accomplished by 3:38 wouldn't be the norm. For me, the norm as an employee working until close at 2am (the legal cut off time where I live) on a weekend was much closer to 3:30 @ an hour and half rather than a half hour and when closing as a manager the norm was closer to 4am @2 hours. All of this is why I don't give the mystery man/3:38 witness account very much weight. It doesn't seem possible time-wise (from my own personal experience) and the likelihood of another pretty petite very drunk blond in this location at this time is far to likely to automatically determine, without video, that it was without a doubt LS and if it was 2 other unknown people, the girl being that drunk may have also been in a blackout state as well as the guy carrying her so they wouldn't necessarily even remember it to report it to LE. With the time not being believable and being unable to confirm the I.D LE doesn't recognize this account as credible and I never have either.
My concern is trying to give it credibility could lead down incorrect paths, then again, it could be truthful and be the key we're all missing. That's the problem with this case, so many unknowable facts that are so important.
 
I think it was the PI's who stated they believe the manager did in fact see LS, but the time was off. IF it was incorrect, and at 4:38 or so then it's very likely the boys are telling the truth and BPD is looking in the wrong direction. That would be extremely frustrating if that's the case and no one looked into the account further.

Just a scenario, LS leaves 5North and is staggering when walking down College. Someone sees her and offers to take her home. Crime of opportunity. With the state she's in, she goes with the person to his car/home. His car/home is located maybe just off College so they pass no cameras. And without anyone looking deeper into the account, the answer is never found.
 
I think it was the PI's who stated they believe the manager did in fact see LS, but the time was off. IF it was incorrect, and at 4:38 or so then it's very likely the boys are telling the truth and BPD is looking in the wrong direction. That would be extremely frustrating if that's the case and no one looked into the account further.

Just a scenario, LS leaves 5North and is staggering when walking down College. Someone sees her and offers to take her home. Crime of opportunity. With the state she's in, she goes with the person to his car/home. His car/home is located maybe just off College so they pass no cameras. And without anyone looking deeper into the account, the answer is never found.

The thought of this idea makes me feel sick.
 
A couple of quick questions.



Does anyone know how valid the rumor (a pt rumor I think) is that JW was nearly coming to blows with JR on the morning after LS was reported missing?

and lastly; Did the mystery man witness give any indication of the condition of the girl being carried? Did she characterize her as "passed out" or just "very drunk"? If the time is off (or not, I guess) and it really was LS being carried then perhaps she wasn't just passed out at all and what this witness saw was much more important and sinister.
 
I think it was the PI's who stated they believe the manager did in fact see LS, but the time was off. IF it was incorrect, and at 4:38 or so then it's very likely the boys are telling the truth and BPD is looking in the wrong direction. That would be extremely frustrating if that's the case and no one looked into the account further.

Just a scenario, LS leaves 5North and is staggering when walking down College. Someone sees her and offers to take her home. Crime of opportunity. With the state she's in, she goes with the person to his car/home. His car/home is located maybe just off College so they pass no cameras. And without anyone looking deeper into the account, the answer is never found.

I posted on this board a while ago and have checked back a few times to see what the latest is... I still think this is what happened to LS. I think if the answer was as obvious as the last person she was with hid her body in a dumpster after an overdose, it would have been found out by now. I think the person responsible may be someone random - but not necessarily. I think there is a chance it was someone who was acquainted with her, possibly someone she had seen or hung out with earlier that night. And this person hasn't told anyone and was responsible for the crime and cover up on his own. Sadly I don't think we will ever know.
 
I posted on this board a while ago and have checked back a few times to see what the latest is... I still think this is what happened to LS. I think if the answer was as obvious as the last person she was with hid her body in a dumpster after an overdose, it would have been found out by now. I think the person responsible may be someone random - but not necessarily. I think there is a chance it was someone who was acquainted with her, possibly someone she had seen or hung out with earlier that night. And this person hasn't told anyone and was responsible for the crime and cover up on his own. Sadly I don't think we will ever know.

I agree with this.

I think the guys LS was with that night know more than they are letting on. However, I think what they know is that they aren't very good friends, very chivalrous, and didn't care very much for LS. I went (on scholarship) to a private, top tier university full of kids like this boys....wealthy parents, never worked a day in their lives, entitled, from the NY metro area, did well in school but also partied hard (alcohol and drugs - and not just some pot), and many were Jewish (not that religion has anything to do with LS going missing, but the similarities between many of my fellow student & these guys is really just stunning). I just feel like I know these guys or I knew guys like them in college. They only care about themselves. (Not all frat boys/rich kids but this "type" of frat boy rich kid, if that makes sense).

If LS was as drunk/high as all indications show, she was also a mess and probably a big pain to be around as the night progressed. They/he were/was probably sick of hearing her complain, talk, cry, fall down, or whatever she was doing. Her deteriorating condition was probably ruining their high/drunk time. If LS got to be especially annoying or grating, I can totally see them just letting her walk home alone so she'd be out of their hair, telling her to go home & leaving her with no choice but to walk, or even tricking her into walking home alone (you go, I'll be right behind you after I do whatever). I have seen plenty of guys (and some girls) in college treat "friends" this way if the friends became too annoying after too much partying. I wonder if the guy(s) didn't try to find LS a ride home because they were sick of her or she was complaining about wanting to go home and then they just told her something along the lines of "fine, get the heck out, I don't care" or tricked her. I've seen a group of guys tell a very drunk friend they were going down the street to another bar, walk the drunk guy out of the door, then turn back around and hide in the crowd at the bar (so drunk guy had walked outside alone, so drunk he kept walking for a while and never returned to the bar that night). If a person is really out of it, this kind of trickery can be done to get the annoying & very inebriated person out of one's hair. It's not something a caring friend would do or a decent adult, but these guys are highly self-centered and were barely adults. They're entitled, they want what they want (which is to enjoy themselves), so they don't think of others.

I've also seen drunk friends in college arguing that one of them was going to walk home when the other didn't think it was safe. The argument ended with "fine, walk home. I don't care! I'm done with you" and the drunk person walking home alone.

Perhaps LS was making a big fuss about going home. They try to find her a ride, even though she is demanding "I can walk home!" or something. When they can't find her a ride, they just let her walk out. Maybe they say they'll accompany her, she says "I can walk home alone!", argument ensues, and the guys say "fine!"

I don't think any of these guys necessarily raped then killed or "accidentally" killed Lauren. I guess an OD/Long QT syndrome reaction cover-up is possible, but I feel like they would have called 911 and claimed that she had done drugs or whatever before she met up with them. I just see them more as the jerk mega-rich frat boy who has never had a job or been taught by his parents to care about anyone besides himself who probably was sick of LS & how troublesome she was once she was so drunk/high (from descriptions I've read, I would have been none too pleased to have been around her that night, not that I'd let her leave on her own).

I just think it's likely the guys didn't really care about LS, were annoyed by her durnk/high shenanigans that were ruining their drunk/high time and just weren't very good friends or good people that night - and that all culminated in LS walking home alone and meeting with something nefarious in the vulnerable state she was in.

LS's case reminds me a lot of Morgan Harrington's. Allegedly she was drunk/high to the point of falling down (like LS), even cutting her face due to a fall in the bathroom, acting really pushy and weird (even with strangers outside the arena) and then her friends didn't seem bothered that she couldn't get back into the concert once she had left to smoke. They may have even been relieved that she couldn't get back if she was being an annoying drunk/high person ruining their concert (and if so, they surely felt badly about it later) as no one seemed to concerned about her alone out there in that state. Morgan was doing things completely out of character- like she was out of her mind, hitchiking on a bridge where she was last seen & the perp may have picked her up. Morgan somehow met up with a sexual predator that night when she was so vulnerable and so abandoned by her friends. Had her remains not been found & the DNA not linked to a past rape, we might all be having similar discussions about Morgan's friends like we are about the guys who were with LS that night.

Sorry for rambling. Please excuse typos (on a tablet).
 
A couple of quick questions.

First, what can I post here from a twitter account from someone that is a friend and twitter follower/followee of a POI but as far as I can find has not been mentioned anywhere ever? Can I post it with the name and avatar redacted? Retell it in my own words without naming names? can I just post a hashtag and let whoever is interested search it for themselves? Any direction would be appreciated but in advance let me just say, it's probably nothing, but I'm not sure what to make of it and I'd love to hear some thoughts from all of you.

Also, does anyone know how valid the rumor (a pt rumor I think) is that JW was nearly coming to blows with JR on the morning after LS was reported missing?

and lastly; Did the mystery man witness give any indication of the condition of the girl being carried? Did she characterize her as "passed out" or just "very drunk"? If the time is off (or not, I guess) and it really was LS being carried then perhaps she wasn't just passed out at all and what this witness saw was much more important and sinister.

You can post directly to Twitter if it relates directly to case. Since it sounds like it may not you can paraphrase.

Witness said Lauren was "incoherent" eyes were barely open and hit her head on the step. Said she was "slung" over the guy who carried her. Apparently this matches what the PIs saw.
 
Ktgirl, what you describe is not far from what I was told the police thought happened, initially anyway--that they kicked her out.
 
I've also seen drunk friends in college arguing that one of them was going to walk home when the other didn't think it was safe. The argument ended with "fine, walk home. I don't care! I'm done with you" and the drunk person walking home alone.

Perhaps LS was making a big fuss about going home. They try to find her a ride, even though she is demanding "I can walk home!" or something. When they can't find her a ride, they just let her walk out. Maybe they say they'll accompany her, she says "I can walk home alone!", argument ensues, and the guys say "fine!"

SBM

I agree with this. I've been present for a similar situation. A very drunk female friend of mine wanted to walk home from a party (even though it was a fair distance, and part of it was along a deserted road), and none of the guys would let her. She got into a big argument with them, partly due to the alcohol, and partly because she felt that they were babying her because she's female, and ended up slipping out the front door without anyone noticing about a half hour later. Of course, when we realised what she'd done, some of us took off after her on foot, and some of us caught a taxi to drive the route she would have gone home (we ended up locating her and taking the rest of the way in the taxi).

If Lauren was being difficult, and insisted she wanted to walk home, I can very well see these boys letting her. I don't know what state she was in by that time of night, and there's no way I myself would let one of my friends walk hom by themselves at night (male OR female), but I've always thought they didn't feel it was a big deal, as she didn't have far to walk, and they themselves were intoxicated and lacking in judgment. Or, as you said earlier in your post, they may not have cared and were glad to get rid of her because she was extremely intoxicated and difficult to look after.

I'm in no way excusing their behaviour, but I can see how she could have ended up walking home by herself.

I just think it's likely the guys didn't really care about LS, were annoyed by her durnk/high shenanigans that were ruining their drunk/high time and just weren't very good friends or good people that night - and that all culminated in LS walking home alone and meeting with something nefarious in the vulnerable state she was in.

I too feel like this is a very real possibility. If she was in such a vulnerable state as witnesses saw, then she would have been an easy target. While the chances are very slim for this to be a random abduction, perhaps this is the one in a million case where the unlikely actually happened. Which would also explain why her body hasn't been found, because she could have ended up anywhere. I agree with midwestgirl, I think if one of the boys were involved, something would have come out by now.

It could very well be that she died that night (whether a Long QT attack or drug related), and no one reported it for fear of the repurcussions, I just feel that if something like this had happened someone would have said something by now. The only reason I can think of for not reporting something like this, is if one of them was having sex with LS while she died, and covered it up for fear of rape charges (or worse).

JMHO.

Praying for Lauren to be brought home to her parents. I can't even imagine the sadness they've been forced to live through.
 
SBM
I too feel like this is a very real possibility. If she was in such a vulnerable state as witnesses saw, then she would have been an easy target. While the chances are very slim for this to be a random abduction, perhaps this is the one in a million case where the unlikely actually happened. Which would also explain why her body hasn't been found, because she could have ended up anywhere. I agree with midwestgirl, I think if one of the boys were involved, something would have come out by now.

Well, I do think theres a chance that it could have been one of the guys she was with that night, maybe someone who has been named in this thread, maybe someone else who is friends with these guys. But i don't think there was a "pact of silence" like some have guessed. I think maybe 1-2 people were involved but not a whole group. I think someone might have followed her or gone looking for her and this person was up to no good. I feel like she probably at least tried to walk home, though, but sadly as we all know never made it.
 
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