IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Keylime, your post has woken me up tonight. I feel really awake, as Thelma (of Thelma and Louise) says.

I have read JR's statements again and again, but tonight they really stink. Wow. I don't care how comfortable a young woman is in her surroundings, to let her walk home alone in her condition and everything else we know about, add to that a bruised eye, not knowing how she got it is ...

:furious: UNCONSCIONABLE.

Makes you wonder what a person like this might think they could get away with doing if the person they were doing it to/with wouldn't remember what had happened on the morning after....

 

[imkeylime]

AFAIK there has been no mention in media, here, or other sites, of not only his path and with whom, but when he left Sports. He should be on on security video exiting Sports though. And FWIW JR does not seem to fit the mystery man description.

What I'm hitting up against is this: In much of the public eye, and amongst his peers no doubt, he is responsible in part (if not guilty) for her disappearance. For him to add the fact that she had a bruised eye makes him even more personally reprehensible.

I think he's probably a liar; to what extent I don't know. The bruised eye is either true or not true. So:

If true, why wouldn't he withhold this info?

If false, what does it offer the narrative of covering for self and/or others?

I agree that he's probably lying to an extent ... but to what extent and why?

He could have mentioned the bruise to show that she had it before she arrived at his apartment, i.e., if she's found with the bruise, he didn't do it.

If he was covering for CR, he could have made up something for LS to say about the bruise that would redirect.

The other thing I found in the Lohud article concerned inconsistencies in the POIs' stories. I'm curious if this was part of that. If JR saw the bruise, wouldn't MB have also? Unless he was just focused on other stuff and didn't notice ...

 

[Jacobite]

Jacobite, why were you speaking with Rob Spierer? As a participant in the searches? Where any dog lost any scent is a huge piece of the puzzle and I don't know whether to consider your contributions fact or hearsay, no offense intended. This is just the internet, after all.

I really wish it was only a rumor. Rob phoned me on the eve of Lauren's birthday. He said the president of IU told him to look me up. And, he was not the first person connected with this case to give the same information.
Looks like my theories go down the drain. Someone reealy needs to remember

 

[akh]

Jacobite,
You said LE have asked these PsOI of not speak publicly about the case. Wouldn't it make more sense at this point (assuming LE is really as far away from solving this as it seems) that they'd want them speaking to the press and others? Not saying their lawyers would allow it anyway, but it would be a chance to give them some rope and see what they do with it. Maybe they contradict themselves or let slip a piece of the puzzle LE doesn't have right now.

Let them believe they've been cleared and see what transpires.

 

[Jupiter812]

I agree that he's probably lying to an extent ... but to what extent and why?

He could have mentioned the bruise to show that she had it before she arrived at his apartment, i.e., if she's found with the bruise, he didn't do it.

If he was covering for CR, he could have made up something for LS to say about the bruise that would redirect.

The other thing I found in the Lohud article concerned inconsistencies in the POIs' stories. I'm curious if this was part of that. If JR saw the bruise, wouldn't MB have also? Unless he was just focused on other stuff and didn't notice ...

Those are both good possibilities about the bruise.

As for the inconsistencies the PIs referred to...I would imagine a fair number of them dealt with quantities and types of party favors that were going around that night.

Edited to add: Oh, and I want to add another topic into the vat of POI's inconsistencies: MB's multiple versions of his contact with Lauren that night.

 

[Jupiter812]

Makes you wonder what a person like this might think they could get away with doing if the person they were doing it to/with wouldn't remember what had happened on the morning after....

It does, however, I'm in the camp that tends to believe JR would not take advantage of her due to their history and friendship.

 

[Jupiter812]

I really wish it was only a rumor. Rob phoned me on the eve of Lauren's birthday. He said the president of IU told him to look me up. And, he was not the first person connected with this case to give the same information.
Looks like my theories go down the drain. Someone reealy needs to remember

How would we know if one of our theories is incorrect though? They go down the drain here but one of us may have it right; or we may have built a correct theory over time together. There is no way to tell. I hope someday soon we will know one way or the other.

 

[akh]

It does, however, I'm in the camp that tends to believe JR would not take advantage of her due to their history and friendship.

You would think, but then you'd also think (for the same reasons) he'd try to get her help if she needed it, let alone not try to dispose of her body if something happened rather than be involved in her disappearance. But if he's involved in the disappearance then all bets are off I suppose.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

It does, however, I'm in the camp that tends to believe JR would not take advantage of her due to their history and friendship.

I can see how it might be difficult to make the leap from a very very bad judgement call while drunk by not walking LS home all the way over to rape, murder and body disposal, however it's important to remember that IF JR is guilty of any of these things it wouldn't automatically mean it was because he set out, intended, or wanted to hurt LS. He may have privately looked at her in a certain way for a long time and it was their history that stopped him from trying to move thier relationship to a physical one. Maybe in the fog of alcohol and drugs seeing her in this black out state he thought, why not, she'll never even remember. And then something happened to her. It was only after things went very wrong that it occurred to him that what he was doing was actual rape, rape that as far as he knew caused her death, regardless of if it even did or not. Who knows, maybe CR or somwone else, had put something in her drink with bad intentions and then he was out of the game after getting clocked by ZO. JR could have known/found out about this after the fact or never knew at all.

*I'm not saying this is what happened, and I'm not saying I even believe it did happen like this, I'm only pointing out HOW it COULD have happened given the history and friendship between them.

 

[Jupiter812]

I'm having trouble accepting that the bar manager's sighting of 3:38 is not correct for the two reasons I stated upthread. For me, part of what works for 3:38 is MB's call to JR at 3:30, a time which could be pivotal in the evening--when she really started to show signs of fading.

Bar mgr said Lauren was semi-conscious (<my words) at 3:38. The mystery man could avoid cameras by walking east on 11th then south on College sidewalk. There are at least two sets of stairs on this side.

But none of this is supported by LE and the PIs. They are in agreement that her time is wrong. I'm having a hard time resigning myself to the fact that this witness testimony is off but I know it is not all that uncommon in general.

 

[Snapfade]

Does anyone know if JW ,or any of his roomates, hung out with anyone from smallwood, college &10th crew ? Did JW ~LS hang out with another dating couple? The reason I ask is , what are chances that JW knew LS was at CR appartment that night. Could he have went to 5N to try and catch LS cheating on him? That might not be the tyoe of thing that a guy would want his buddies to know about, so he snuck out. I have hard tine believing he didnt know who Lauren was with until the next morning.

 

[akh]

What if the mystery man sighting was really 4:38AM?

 

[imkeylime]

What if the mystery man sighting was really 4:38AM?

Based on the witness' account, that still wouldn't work. As Jupiter noted up thread: "Her time of 3:38 is correct. The corner clock said 3:38. It was not off by an hour because the time change had happened months prior. Bars close at 3:00 a.m., she's a bar manager."

IMO, the witness being a bar manager is what solidifies the time. She wouldn't have hung around the bar after closing, IMO. But I still don't see why LE doesn't seem interested in the account. There must be a reason. ???

 

[akh]

Based on the witness' account, that still wouldn't work. As Jupiter noted up thread: "Her time of 3:38 is correct. The corner clock said 3:38. It was not off by an hour because the time change had happened months prior. Bars close at 3:00 a.m., she's a bar manager."

IMO, the witness being a bar manager is what solidifies the time. She wouldn't have hung around the bar after closing, IMO. But I still don't see why LE doesn't seem interested in the account. There must be a reason. ???

We know the 3:38AM time is allegedly the time given but I thought it was decided that nobody actually knew where the bar manager got that time? While we know there's a clock, wasn't that ultimately an assumption (here) on where the bar manager got her time? I know a few posts back I was confused on that point and thought it was part of what Gatto reported but now I'm not so sure.

Bars have to quit serving by 3AM but IIRC they have until 3:30 to clear the drinks and clear the bar. So if the bar pushed the envelope and didn't start closing registers and cleanup until something closer to 3:30AM maybe it is possible the witness' time is off by an hour for some reason.

And for that matter, LE sure acts like the time is off so if it is off, why couldn't it be off towards 4:38AM? Maybe she looked at the clock wrong? Maybe a timestamp was wrong at the bar? Maybe it was a late night at the bar and she left later than she thought?

Point being, for some reason it seems the time as stated isn't being taken seriously. But if we add an hour to it, then the timeline again falls back into order and it would also be a sighting of LS that would then support the idea she did leave the 5N apartments.

All along I've thought the mystery man and 3:38AM time an important piece of the puzzle. But then LE and the PI's seem to think the time is wrong. So... OK... if it's wrong why does it have to be wrong towards 2:30 and instead couldn't it be wrong towards 4:30AM? Unless the bar was slow it would make more sense to close later, not earlier. And maybe the employees had a few late night 'shift drinks' before leaving and the bar manager skewed the time so it didn't look like they were there as late as they were?

And that said, and maybe this is the answer about the time discrepancy, wouldn't you think there's some form of bar security cams and/or computer work that would show approximately when the bar manager left the bar?

Just trying to think outside of the box a bit...

 

[monkey222]

I recall initial report of lady being manager of a bar, but then there was clarification that she was a restaurant manager vs bar. This may explain time discrepancy.

 

[Missing Budweiser]

What are theories and rumors floating around campus? I attended a large Big Ten University and a small private school, and one thing that was certain at both was that the students gossiped and talked about everything. Whether it was a fight, an arrest, who was sleeping with who. What is bring said at IU?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Megatroid brings up interesting point about JR's Kilroys departure time. Do we know if the path he took home ,who he was with, or if he walked. In a earlier post I was wondering if J.R. could have been at 10th & college, and CR was seeking help then.
I also wander if MB volunteer information about LS injuries to LE. If he didnt, I would consider this a form of covering for CR already.
Like Jupiter, when J.R. Inquires about LS's injuries, the alledged reply by LS is “ I Dont Know"?? There is No Way you let her walk home alone. JR saying he let her walk home seems like an Unbelivable Story more than Bad Judgement.

Having not seen anything concrete about other POI's who could be confirmed to have been at Kilroys the same time as LS/CR, would very much like to know JR's whereabouts on a timeline that whole evening. JR made a point to mention the black eye (which should have not been black) but also could have been the tip of the iceberg to much more severe injuries. How could anyone NOT be curious what had happened, especially a friend who you are connected to on many levels? How could you not offer to help, even an ice pack? Even if making an assumption like a) She fell flat on her face or b) wow, someone hit her... how could you let her go back out alone a very very short time later? It's doubtful she could pass any "walk to the door" test if she were even alive or conscious after 3:30 So, yes if this is the extent of JR's story it is BS. So what could he have told LE that keeps him off the hook?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I agree that he's probably lying to an extent ... but to what extent and why?

He could have mentioned the bruise to show that she had it before she arrived at his apartment, i.e., if she's found with the bruise, he didn't do it.

If he was covering for CR, he could have made up something for LS to say about the bruise that would redirect.

The other thing I found in the Lohud article concerned inconsistencies in the POIs' stories. I'm curious if this was part of that. If JR saw the bruise, wouldn't MB have also? Unless he was just focused on other stuff and didn't notice ...

MB seemed focused enough on LS to notice her face looking as it been slammed on the ground. Perhaps MB didn't mention it, because MB never saw her at this time, and was simply covering for CR.

I think about a year ago, I might have mentioned how this CYA "story" conspiracy is similar to the old 1972 film "Deliverance" with Burt Reynolds and Jon Voight. In that film, a group of 4 men are on a whitewater, camping / hunting trip, they wind up killing a mountain man in a self-defense situation. They conspire to not tell the authorities because they don't think they would get a fair trial. They conspire to bury the body. Later, downstream after 1 of the 4 is shot and Burt Reynolds gets seriously injured, they kill a second mountain man and cover up both of these deaths again. They continue downstream where they hit more intense rapids and agree that they will say THIS is where they lost their friend who they weighted down with rocks upstream, to throw the trail off from LE. Burt Reynolds is taken to a hospital. LE finds their second broken canoe further upstream and starts to ask questions because it's inconsistent with their story. Voight goes to the hospital and tells Reynolds about the broken canoe that LE found, and that they need to change their story. Reynolds "gets it" and says "He can't remember anything!". Meanwhile LE continues looking in the WRONG place because of their story.

I bring this up because this film is well known, and has some remarkable similarities to the running theories here from a Human Nature perspective and how a small group of 3 men could make a pact to deviate from actual events to a story to cover their A's, hiding a body(including that of a friend), and 1 injured of the 3 has convenient amnesia. It's like someone took a page out of this script and used it as a template for their own fiction. The story about LS leaving JR's at 4:15 is suspiciously similar to the downstream rapids misdirection used in the film. Lauren's fall, face down at just before 3:00am at the end of the Alley and subsequent wallet find at that location is similar to finding the broken canoe upstream.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Maybe Corey Rossman had a good reason to puke on the carpet.
Lauren and Corey exit Smallwood at 2:42. Within 5 minutes she is seen falling 3 times at 10th and College. Nine minutes after leaving home she is last seen on camera. Then, a tracking dog loses her scent before 5 N. This looks very very very grim.

Where did the 3rd fall come in?

1) Falling over slamming head onto to concrete (so it could be heard by a witness) from a sitting position at 10th and College.
2) Falling down face first without hands blocking the fall into gravel lot after exiting Alley
3) ??

 

[VeryVeritas]

I was just discussing this possibility, of LS never making it back to 5N, up thread a little ways but the snag with the theory is that JR saw her facial injuries that had only just happened on the way there through the alley and there is really no other way for him to have known about them without her having made it back there for him to see her.


I was wondering if the scent dogs would indicate that the trail stopped if she had turned around and back tracked over her own steps or would they 'see' 2 seperate trails?

It doesn't mean that she was alive when he saw them.
And I've been wondering (not knowing his exact words) if they would appear much darker if she had expired vs. being alive. They should not have appeared "black" (bruises take more time than that to form) if she were were alive at that hour.