IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[Jupiter812]

There are a number of other lakes in the Bloomington region:

There's also Yellowwood. It is less well known except to fishermen and hunters. 133 acres and about 30 feet deep.

Sweetwater and Cordry in Brown County are surrounded by vacation homes. They are private lakes and they don't show up on many maps.

There are lakes at Brown County State Park but one would have to go past a gate house and pay admission to get to them.

There are three small lakes at Morgan-Monroe State Forest.

And then there are the infamous quarries...

We were discussing the Bloomington lakes that were searched either by foot or by dives. Lakes in the surrounding counties were excluded as far as I know.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Below is from Gatto's blog and seems to answer why they did not release a sketch. (Surely I read this way back when but apparently I didn't store it on the hard drive of my brain, only cached temporarily.)

"The TonyGatto.com report, New Witness Tells Of Lauren Spierer Mystery Encounter With Unknown Man, was addressed at a police news briefing today, where it was revealed that the “unknown man” identified in the story is someone known to police. They did not say whether the man is known to Lauren. "

No sketch, but known to LE, means that the ID was made by photo or witness also recognized the person and named them.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

No sketch, but known to LE, means that the ID was made by photo or witness also recognized the person and named them.

This article indicates that I.D. was NOT made by photo, but a sketch was done.

"The witness has been interviewed by the Bloomington police department and was called-back for a second meeting in which a police artist drew-up a sketch.

The witness was shown a photo lineup and she says none of the six or so photos, presumably Spierer’s friends who have been named persons of interest, matched the mystery man."

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/22/pol...-discount-mystery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/

 

[bx2]

1) On the floor at SW? I've never heard this. Do you mean when she was on camera with CR after the altercation with ZO? I never heard anyone say she was on the floor, but that she had trouble exiting the elevator. Please post link to this fall.

"She comes stumbling out of the elevator, trips several times toward the corner of the lobby, where she comes to rest in the corner of the lobby, falls to her knees and leans against the wall for support until a male companion comes to her aid, gathers her under his arm and escorts her out of the front of the building," the source said.

2) Backwards at 10th and college? From the PI video they said she fell over sideways from a sitting position. Where does it say she fell backwards? Falling sideways is much more risky and affects different parts of the brain than falling backwards (either can be fatal, but falling on the back of the head can impair vision immediately) Post a credible link that says she fell backwards instead of sideways.

On the Lohud timeline and path video, if you click on the 10th and College building labelled #4 in the graphic below the video, it says "While sitting on stairs, Spierer falls back and hits her head".

3) The final fall is in the alley that opens to the gravel lot on the way to 5N between 10th and College and 5N, Correct? The way you word things causes ambiguities.

The Lohud article and video describing the falls is unclear (to me) on if the falling in the alley is before they arrived at 10th and College or the alley between 10th and 11th, but it sounds to me as if the order of things was: leave Smallwood, sit on staircase where she hits head and is spotted by woman visiting bf, continue up alley where she falls again without putting hands up to shield her, enter 10th and College to knock on apt door of 4 girls, leave 10th and College with CR slinging her up on his back, enter alley between 10th and 11th.

2) I don't recall seeing anything public about this tip called in on June 4, 2011 called in to BPD about the lake. Please post a link

This article refers to June 7, 2011: Bloomington Police responded to “a very specific” but anonymous tip regarding Lake Monroe yesterday.

 

[VeryVeritas]

This article indicates that I.D. was NOT made by photo, but a sketch was done.

"The witness has been interviewed by the Bloomington police department and was called-back for a second meeting in which a police artist drew-up a sketch.

The witness was shown a photo lineup and she says none of the six or so photos, presumably Spierer’s friends who have been named persons of interest, matched the mystery man."

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/22/pol...-discount-mystery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/

That is quite interesting. Thank you. So, the person is known to LE, but isn't one of Lauren's immediate friends that night. But what of this person's connection to Lauren's immediate friends that night? Is this person one of the 10 POI's or yet another? Is this person a local or out of towner (for example one of JR's Michigan pals?)

Also this then makes it inconsistent that this person was carrying her at 2:38. It again points to the only known sighting of Lauren after the Alley cam, other than the CR/MB/JR (whose stories do not add up and are leaky as hell). And that would make the 3:38 time more accurate again, except for what LE knows that makes the 3:38 time inconsistent with something they have. What about 3:28, 3:18 or 3:08? Not knowing where this bartender worked, it's hard to calculate how much time passed to go from work to reported siting location.

 

[Jacobite]

That is quite interesting. Thank you. So, the person is known to LE, but isn't one of Lauren's immediate friends that night. But what of this person's connection to Lauren's immediate friends that night? Is this person one of the 10 POI's or yet another? Is this person a local or out of towner (for example one of JR's Michigan pals?)

Also this then makes it inconsistent that this person was carrying her at 2:38. It again points to the only known sighting of Lauren after the Alley cam, other than the CR/MB/JR (whose stories do not add up and are leaky as hell). And that would make the 3:38 time more accurate again, except for what LE knows that makes the 3:38 time inconsistent with something they have. What about 3:28, 3:18 or 3:08? Not knowing where this bartender worked, it's hard to calculate how much time passed to go from work to reported siting location.

I think you are totally wrong. Even Tony Gatto corrected the story to say the Mystery Man sighting was as much as an hour earlier. Someone posted a link in the last few pages that proves this. There are no witnesses after the last cam except MB and JR.

 

[VeryVeritas]

"She comes stumbling out of the elevator, trips several times toward the corner of the lobby, where she comes to rest in the corner of the lobby, falls to her knees and leans against the wall for support until a male companion comes to her aid, gathers her under his arm and escorts her out of the front of the building," the source said.



On the Lohud timeline and path video, if you click on the 10th and College building labelled #4 in the graphic below the video, it says "While sitting on stairs, Spierer falls back and hits her head".




The Lohud article and video describing the falls is unclear (to me) on if the falling in the alley is before they arrived at 10th and College or the alley between 10th and 11th, but it sounds to me as if the order of things was: leave Smallwood, sit on staircase where she hits head and is spotted by woman visiting bf, continue up alley where she falls again without putting hands up to shield her, enter 10th and College to knock on apt door of 4 girls, leave 10th and College with CR slinging her up on his back, enter alley between 10th and 11th.



This article refers to June 7, 2011: Bloomington Police responded to “a very specific” but anonymous tip regarding Lake Monroe yesterday.

Ok, slipping down to her knees is a fall, but it's already pretty much in line with my understanding of events, just slightly more detailed. My interest in these falls is largely to get a bearing on the severity of her head injuries and overall condition. This inablity to stand on her own at SW indicates she was in very bad shape even before the head injuries. There is nothing to indicate that she consumed enough alcohol to be this impaired from booze alone.
Gut feeling here is that by this point drugs and alcohol are having a combined effect, and of course possibly involving her health issues too.

The Story indicating falling back vs. the PI's quoting a witness saying she fell sideways could just be inaccuracies in reporting. Since this would have been an eyewitness account of someone within hearing distance of the "thud". I'm taking the PI's word that she fell sideways as more accurate, because they very likely interviewed this person and were not going with heresay from a newspaper article. Looking at it either way... if she fell back onto concrete stairs, she could have had a fractured skull and been hemorrhaging internally. An impact to the back of the skull can traumatize the occipital region and immediately impair vision. If she instead fell sideways, again she could have had a skull fracture, internal hemorrhage, brain swelling, loss of consciousness. The main difference is that the side of the head tends to be more fragile, while the back of the head is more likely to immediately affect vision. A lot depends on the force and angle of impact, a person's health and other factors.

The more I consider her inability to stand, and the seriousness of her injuries, Just can't think that after that last fall entering the lot, that she walked after that. She must have been carried from then on. I don't know where the dumpster is in relation the 5N building entrance itself. What I'm thinking here is that CR may have struggled to get her back on her feet up to that point and at some point got her on his back. This trail may have with her feet maybe even partially dragged on the ground , could have ended at the dumpster. At that point, I'm not sure how her scent might change to dogs if CR were carrying her well off of the ground. Then at some point following this we have Mystery person X also carrying her well off of the ground.

Another curiosity in this sequence... why didn't CR pick her up earlier or better support her? He had to have been seen as well, and his condition / behavior noted. How did he walk through that Alley? Was he supporting her most of the time, or was he barely able to stagger through it himself? We seem to have a clear picture that she was in no condition to walk and should have been taken to ER. But we don't have a clear picture of CR's condition following exactly the same path. What I want to know is whether he appeared capable of carrying her. Seems to me that he was.
Since learning of the serious falls and her condition clearly being worse than CR's even after he was clocked by ZO (which incidently is likely to produce an adrenaline surge that would temporarily counteract some of the effects of drugs) it's seemed to me that had she ever made it to CR/MB's that it was LS that would be the one vomiting and needing to be put to bed, if not CPR and ER as well. If CR managed to carry her up to CR/MB's and walks in ... I could see MB grabbing the phone and calling JR. (would the time be 3:30?) or perhaps first, some LS vomiting and drama between CR and MB and then the call to JR? JR had house guests so who comes over with JR? Does CR bring LS to JR between a hall or balcony that connects to the 2 units? or does JR retrieve her? Even if JR had house guests, they may have gone to bed by 3:30, so others could have been aware of her presence (albiet temporarily). There could have been a brief interval here where LS was semi conscious and was reaching for the ipod. She now has several reasons to have impaired vision and cognitive function if she's alive. Yet, she is not going anywhere unless someone carries her. But whom is seeing carrying her around this time and how did they get her? Is this Mystery person the same person that was called at 4:15? Does this Mystery person also know DR? When passing through the different combinations of variables here, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference if LS goes into a coma at CR/MB's or at JR's and whether she dies in the gravel lot, at CR/MB's, in the hallway between CR/MB's and JR's, at JR's or as mystery man X is carrying her way from 5N. In their minds, they may see a difference where they rationalize that they weren't responsible and just want nothing to do with it. Yet at some point in all of these scenarios Mystery Man winds up with a comatose or dead LS sometime between 3:30 and 4:15.
If you knew, without question that LS needed immediate medical attention, calling 911 would make a lot more sense than driving to ER.
So I see only 2 possible reasons for JR allowing X to take LS.
1) X was tasked with bringing LS back to her apt and she expired on the way, leaving X in a vulnerable position.
2) LS was already expired and X was tasked with removing her from the scene.

I'm giving more weight to #1 because of the 3:38 witness. Otherwise, if LS had already expired it would have made more sense to conceal her body. If LS did make it (carried, dragged, whatever) to CR/MB's the 3:38 time is really close to the 3:30 call made by MB to JR. Now, I'm considering. It took a full half hour from the fall in the gravel lot, until MB calls JR. That was a long time to get up to that apt., then vomit etc... things were moving slow. It does seem that unless someone who was not intoxicated and who is in pretty good shape would have only had a few minutes to pick her up and be walking down N. College to be seen at 3:38. They would have had to act almost immediately after that call to JR. So, could it have been 3:48, 3:58? or even 4:38? 4:38 seems too long to me. I'm thinking more like 3:40 -3:45 X starts bringing LS back to SW... and about 3:48 to 3:58 bartender sees them. Somewhere after this point X realizes that LS has expired. X puts LS somewhere - a car, a dumpster, or other hiding place (even another apt in 10th and college). I vote for car/vehicle around the 10th and College building or parking garage. Time is passing, so at 4:15 does JR call X?? Perhaps X was supposed to connect with DR at SW to get LS back into her apt. So JR calls DR but no answer. At some point after this JR and X had to speak. if X were JR's houseguest he could have just came back and explained. At this point JR would only be aware that LS expired, and only X would know where the body went.

Anyway, I think it is possible they tried somehow to get her back to SW but it failed. Earlier in the evening it seems CR was not at all concerned about Cams, right up until just before 3:00am. But after that, it seems someone may have been more conscious about cams.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I think you are totally wrong. Even Tony Gatto corrected the story to say the Mystery Man sighting was as much as an hour earlier. Someone posted a link in the last few pages that proves this. There are no witnesses after the last cam except MB and JR.

You seem mixed up again. I was open to 2:38 and in fact was looking for reasons to support it. However, in this post I was responding to someone who posted compelling reasons that conflict with it being 2:38. Are you disputing what was posted about the police sketch? I didn't post that. But if the witness did confirm from the sketch that it was not one of LS's "friends" (which covers the immediate POI's in this case) then WHO was this person?
And how could this person be carrying her back to SW at the same time she is seen with CR headed to 5N. Please reconcile all of that. This is not a matter of opinion, it's about deduction and credibility of facts.

 

[IUGrad84]

I was questioning whether divers search those "many" lakes or if on-the-ground searchers were done by LE and the public, because that is what I recall. There are only two other real lakes in Blgtn: Lemon and Griffy. Lemon is shallow and I doubt they would send dive teams; Griffy is dense with vegetation. Point being unless they had a credible tip, it wouldn't make sense to send dive teams there.

Does anyone recall issues regarding 'private property' or searchers not having access to certain areas surrounding the water?

 

[IUGrad84]

I appreciate how much this community cares about finding Lauren, seeing closure for her family and ultimately for justice to be served. I check this site often. I read, ponder and generally just click-away with a very heavy heart. I'm hoping everyone here continues to show one another compassion, support and respect. Here's to MORE positive energy and thoughtfulness ... traits that Lauren's family and friends have told us she embodied.

 

[Jacobite]

And, there was Spierer the Tiger, the girl who stood up to bullies, jerks, and men who think they know what they do not .

 

[Jupiter812]

Does anyone recall issues regarding 'private property' or searchers not having access to certain areas surrounding the water?

If by issues you mean uncooperativeness with LE by private owners, no, I don't. For the organized, public searches however, we were instructed to stay off private property.

Lauren's father made public pleas asking private property owners to search their sheds, barns, environs. This was announced in the media as well. Almost everyone I talked to during this time looked.

 

[Ros]

Does anyone recall issues regarding 'private property' or searchers not having access to certain areas surrounding the water?

I remeber that landowners were asked to search their own property.

 

[Mergatroid]

Anyone know what JRs house guest looks like? Does he fit the Mystery Man description?

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

You seem mixed up again. I was open to 2:38 and in fact was looking for reasons to support it. However, in this post I was responding to someone who posted compelling reasons that conflict with it being 2:38. Are you disputing what was posted about the police sketch? I didn't post that. But if the witness did confirm from the sketch that it was not one of LS's "friends" (which covers the immediate POI's in this case) then WHO was this person?
And how could this person be carrying her back to SW at the same time she is seen with CR headed to 5N. Please reconcile all of that. This is not a matter of opinion, it's about deduction and credibility of facts.

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/


The witness has viewed a photo of Corey Rossman, the Indiana University student who was with Spierer at Kilroy’s Sports Bar and at both their apartments that night, and she says she does not believe Rossman is the man who she saw with Spierer that night.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Anyone know what JRs house guest looks like? Does he fit the Mystery Man description?

I've seen a few photos of DB and I wouldn't characterize him as even a near match. He has dark hair but that's about it.

 

[Jacobite]

When I first posted on this board bout three months ago, I was almost sure that one of the 5N rats were responsible, and argued for it.

Now, after thinking more and having more time pass....my mind has changed.

I think this was a random abduction. As bad as they appear to be, I just don't think it's likely for these boys - in their drunken state - to be able to successfully hide a body with no trace of DNA and keep it UNCOVERED, with nobody cracking, for over a year. And consider that both JR and CR returned to school the next year, renting the exact same townhouse. Do you really think they would have had enough gall to do that if they were actually guilty of dragging a decades body out of that apt and hiding it, not matter how "soulless' they are known to be? BD is equally open to the possibility or a random abduction as well.

Another interesting thing that has crossed my mind is how they would know for SURE that Lauren was actually dead - and be sure enough to go the extreme of disposing of her?? As far as I know, there were no med students in that group, and just because you can't detect a pulse or her breath, somebody could still be alive and in cardiac arrest or ODing, and in this case you CALL AN AMBULACNE ASAP. This is was Bo Dietel said - he didn't' know why any of them did not call an ambulance if she was clearly passed our or ODing. The prospect of having to explain that she did some coke or drank too much is nothing compared to driving down the street with a body in your car.


I think that Lauren was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and she did functionally walk away from 5N, and within the two or so blocks that nobody was watching her, she met her unfortunate fate involving some random pervert who nobody will likely ever know.

Of course, the million dollar question is that if these guys had nothing to do with it, why are they not talking and getting lawyers? The answer is pretty simple in my opinion: they are afraid. There was hefty amounts of shady stuff going on: large amounts of coke use, and maybe some gang rape. Stuff that - in it's own right - is enough to put somebody behind bars for a few years. Suppose these guys talked to the police or investigators and their elaborations regarding sexual exploits or source of the cocaine was revealed. With a family and public eager to lock somebody up and point a finger, it would be fairly easy to charge and accuse these kids with manslaughter or related cause. So their wealthy and law-savvey parents are probably saying: Don't talk!! Just don't say ANYTHING! If you want to stay out of jail, keep your mouth shut! Which, by and large, is the right advice.

Both the Gary Condit and John Benat Ramsey cases come to mind when for months there was a clear suspect, but then that person ended up not having any part in it. I'm inclined to believe it is similar here.

Is there anything you can offer to back this up? I would prefer to think Lauren's companions that night did nothing to harm her. They would have to be sociopaths to put this girls family through all this torture. And, frankly it is hard to believe 5 sociopaths could be found in such a small neighborhood and be involved in an evil conspiracy. The conspiracy theories and plots don't seem logical.

 

[Tr.]

Is there anything you can offer to back this up? I would prefer to think Lauren's companions that night did nothing to harm her. They would have to be sociopaths to put this girls family through all this torture. And, frankly it is hard to believe 5 sociopaths could be found in such a small neighborhood and be involved in an evil conspiracy. The conspiracy theories and plots don't seem logical.

...then how about one or two sexual sadists with a drug operation to keep hushed?

 

[Jupiter812]

Is there anything you can offer to back this up? I would prefer to think Lauren's companions that night did nothing to harm her. They would have to be sociopaths to put this girls family through all this torture. And, frankly it is hard to believe 5 sociopaths could be found in such a small neighborhood and be involved in an evil conspiracy. The conspiracy theories and plots don't seem logical.

IMO the term "sociopath" is used waaayy to casually here. Isn't the fact that the boys drink, drug, have undeveloped brains and raging hormones enough?
Seriously.

Also, I don't see anything the poster wrote that requires her/him to back it up.

 

[Jacobite]

He might want to expand on it and I want to see what he has to say. He's one of the bright and logical ones on this board.