IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

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how many people do you think hear that someone "failed" a polygraph and think "well polygraphs are sometimes wrong"? probably never. how many hear that someone "passed" one and think that proves innocence? probably most of the time.

The second part is true. When people volunteer to take a polygraph and pass, that eliminates a lot of suspicion for me. But LE doesn't usually say people 'failed' a polygraph anyway - more often we hear they were 'inconclusive' or something like that, and yes - I have heard of lots of cases where that doesn't necessarily imply that someone is guilty of the crime in question. We didn't hear any results of DR's polygraph, only that he took one. Still, the fact that he did is significant and sends a message that he is not hiding from LE.

To me, what raises the most suspicion is when someone refuses to take a (real) polygraph at all, while claiming complete innocence. I honestly don't see what the risk is, especially in a case like this when it comes down to a stalled investigation of a missing friend. And especially when the last friends to be with her bear (at the very least) some responsibility for her going missing.
 
" we all have to live within our own sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair."

Yeah, who cares about the suffering of others.

to equate wanting to remain uninvolved with a disproven technology with not caring about the suffering of others is grasping at straws. you're better than that.
 
To me, what raises the most suspicion is when someone refuses to take a polygraph at all, while claiming complete innocence. I honestly don't see what the risk is, especially in a case like this when it comes down to a stalled investigation of a missing friend. And especially when the last friends to be with her bear (at the very least) some responsibility for her going missing.

rsbm - right, exactly what i'm saying except your conclusion is that people should take it and mine is they shouldn't be bullied into taking it just because others might become suspicious. i don't buy the baffling notion of "if you're innocent you don't have anything to hide". i am innocent, i have nothing to hide, i won't volunteer to give up my rights to prove it.
 
rsbm - right, exactly what i'm saying except your conclusion is that people should take it and mine is they shouldn't be bullied into taking it just because others might become suspicious. i don't buy the baffling notion of "if you're innocent you don't have anything to hide". i am innocent, i have nothing to hide, i won't volunteer to give up my rights to prove it.

BBM: Why is that a baffling concept?

It's an interesting conversation though, I honestly do see both sides of the polygraph issue to some degree, even though I feel pretty strongly that in this particular case, not taking one does indicate that the POI have something to hide.

I think we part ways when it comes to placing emphasis on rights vs. responsibility.
 
BBM: Why is that a baffling concept?

because it sounds like "guilty until you prove yourself innocent" which is the opposite of what most people like to believe.

you stated the disagreement very well as "rights vs responsibility". good stuff.
 
to equate wanting to remain uninvolved with a disproven technology with not caring about the suffering of others is grasping at straws. you're better than that.

"you're better than that" No, your lordship, I am but a local yokel. I equate wanting to remain uninvolved and hiding behind "disproven technology" with pure and simple self-centeredness. Not wanting to get one's hands dirty because the moral alternative is just too distasteful. Eww. And for the record I happen to find the "local yokel" among the most altruistic responders in this case.
 
"you're better than that" No, your lordship, I am but a local yokel. I equate wanting to remain uninvolved and hiding behind "disproven technology" with pure and simple self-centeredness. Not wanting to get one's hands dirty because the moral alternative is just too distasteful. Eww. And for the record I happen to find the "local yokel" among the most altruistic responders in this case.


you also seem to equate what i said with a lot of things i didn't say.
 
Reason #2: Afraid of being exposed through the media.

* A tipster can remain anonymous so this would imply a role such as an accessory or a level of guilt, does it not?

Like Ros, I wondered from the wording of CS's statement whether they feel that there may be witnesses or friends who have submitted anonymous tips, but who have not actually gone to LE or revealed the details that would allow LE/ the Spierers to investigate the tip.

If you have written an anonymous letter and feel you now have the courage to come forward, I beg you to do so. - CS

Like, hypothetical situation: anonymous letter saying one of the POIs had access to a car that night would not be the same as a person coming forward and saying POI X had his spare keys and providing LE access to his car. There could be situations like this where friends don't know if something is important, and if they believe the POI (or whoever) is innocent, may not want to be exposed as implicating them - Or implicating themselves, say in the case that the info had to do with drugs, or lying to LE or something like that.

I think it would be possible to come forward with a tip without being exposed by the media though (not even all of the POI were named in the media when this case was front page news!), so I hope that wouldn't hold someone back from coming forward with info that could find Lauren.

If someone has taken the time and effort to write an anonymous letter, they obviously had a feeling that their tip could be important. If they came forward and turned out to be right, any other concerns probably wouldn't seem very significant. And if it's nothing, it wouldn't go anywhere anyway.
 
Have you ever looked at resolved cases for ideas about Lauren's case?
I went to Charleyproject.org where there are a mass of cases and an area that lists page after page of resolved cases. After deciding it's not a good idea to be a female, especially in the pacific northwest and rocky mountain states.... and after seeing the patterns for runaways and non-custodial abductions.... there are enough other types of cases to start seeing other patterns. After looking at hundreds of resolved cases, you start to see things differently.
 
Have you ever looked at resolved cases for ideas about Lauren's case?
I went to Charleyproject.org where there are a mass of cases and an area that lists page after page of resolved cases...

I don't have the time to check this out... I'd be interested to know if anything made you see this case differently though, or if it gave you any ideas that we haven't talked about.
 
Have you ever looked at resolved cases for ideas about Lauren's case?
I went to Charleyproject.org where there are a mass of cases and an area that lists page after page of resolved cases. After deciding it's not a good idea to be a female, especially in the pacific northwest and rocky mountain states.... and after seeing the patterns for runaways and non-custodial abductions.... there are enough other types of cases to start seeing other patterns. After looking at hundreds of resolved cases, you start to see things differently.

I do that, too and concur that it's extremely dangerous to be female in general, and especially in the rocky mountains/pacific northwest. Also seems like sometimes the answer is absolutely nothing that could have been guessed (e.g., car drove off the road and into a ravine and wasn't found for ten years, plus an amazing number had been found not that long after their deaths and not IDed until decades later. Hopefully modern technology will close that gap).
 
Like Ros, I wondered from the wording of CS's statement whether they feel that there may be witnesses or friends who have submitted anonymous tips, but who have not actually gone to LE or revealed the details that would allow LE/ the Spierers to investigate the tip.



Like, hypothetical situation: anonymous letter saying one of the POIs had access to a car that night would not be the same as a person coming forward and saying POI X had his spare keys and providing LE access to his car. There could be situations like this where friends don't know if something is important, and if they believe the POI (or whoever) is innocent, may not want to be exposed as implicating them - Or implicating themselves, say in the case that the info had to do with drugs, or lying to LE or something like that.

I think it would be possible to come forward with a tip without being exposed by the media though (not even all of the POI were named in the media when this case was front page news!), so I hope that wouldn't hold someone back from coming forward with info that could find Lauren.

If someone has taken the time and effort to write an anonymous letter, they obviously had a feeling that their tip could be important. If they came forward and turned out to be right, any other concerns probably wouldn't seem very significant. And if it's nothing, it wouldn't go anywhere anyway.
I remember an earlier letter from CS in which she asks someone to remember "what Lauren meant to you." I wonder if the same person wrote an anonymous letter.
 
I don't have the time to check this out... I'd be interested to know if anything made you see this case differently though, or if it gave you any ideas that we haven't talked about.

This case is rare. There are a few larger categories that most missing fall into, which sometimes you don't know until it's resolved. The rest get more tricky. For me it only increased suspicions about those last to see Lauren.

It really amazes me the number of bones and traces of people that turn up years later. Did the person(s) last to see her get lucky, or are they really that clever that in just a few hours that morning they caused her to vanish forever? There are cases where a body was left in plain sight and wasn't found for years. There are tons of cases where the problem is incompetent and/or stubborn LE. I do think in this case I've given too much credit to how smart they would be in a panicked situation. They may think they are steps ahead of LE, yet most likely did make some mistakes that have not yet been realized.

Can you answer me this: I thought earlier I knew this answer to this but couldn't find it in my notes. The next day CR/MB were out to buy headache medicine and a witness said CR asked if he had seen a little blonde girl. I'm forgetting what time this was. How did CR know that LS was missing? That day there was a chain of events that also seems sketchy. A complete timeline of what is known would be helpful. At some point it seems that someone was knocking on CR/MB's door and/or calling. What was the earliest activity at any of the POI's residences or phones after 4:15am It seems everything just stops at 4:15am. If the situation were already contained by 4:15am that would only leave a max of about 1hr. to have done something and probably much less. Unless someone took LS and just kept on going and never came back (like a guest). Otherwise someone immediately involved who had to come back, would have maybe only had 1 hr total. I think the amount of time they had, would change where and how I would look. So if for example, I had evidence and a significant reason to believe CR did the ditching, but not enough to convict, I would be trying to figure out where CR could go and come back within 1 hr. Maybe a 20 minute radius of 5N. Lots of ground to cover in a 20 minute radius if you look real carefully. People tend to be found a lot closer to where they disappear, than not. The immediate 1 to 2 miles is most likely.


Intersecting with some of the other information here are some thoughts:

1) If you were going to take LS to the hospital you would most likely head south on Rogers correct? Perhaps taking Monroe South first and then hanging a right on Kirkwood, then a left on Rogers. The Hospital is just about 1 mile from the gravel lot, or maybe 5 to 10 minutes if you had to get into a vehicle and hit some lights on the way. Say about half way, it was realized that LS was clearly gone. Now which way would you go? Stay on Kirkwood and head towards the Hwy (37 / 45)? After a few blocks a cemetery appears - Rose Hill. There is also, but not as obvious, another cemetery a few more blocks way Vahalia memory gardens.

2) Ok no hospital, it's already too late, so Griffy reservoir (as has been brought up several times) would seem another natural place. How do you get there? Go up Walnut? this is about 2 miles away, but because of turns and roads could wind up taking more like 20 minutes to get there and find a spot. Can Griffy be ruled out at this point? Don't see how it could.

3) If you go out to a radius of 20 miles there are other lakes(Lemon, Monroe, etc) and multiple state forests. Possible to get to most and back within a few hrs. A needle in many haystacks at this point. Yet, most likely off of a known road, or previously traveled route or location.

4) Going back closer again to 11th, there are the smaller parks, and quite a bit of land along the rail road tracks in the area to the North. It is possible this could have been achieved on foot. But then, why go to that trouble when you could use a sewer, for example?
 
Can you answer me this: I thought earlier I knew this answer to this but couldn't find it in my notes. The next day CR/MB were out to buy headache medicine and a witness said CR asked if he had seen a little blonde girl. I'm forgetting what time this was. How did CR know that LS was missing? That day there was a chain of events that also seems sketchy. A complete timeline of what is known would be helpful. At some point it seems that someone was knocking on CR/MB's door and/or calling. What was the earliest activity at any of the POI's residences or phones after 4:15am It seems everything just stops at 4:15am. If the situation were already contained by 4:15am that would only leave a max of about 1hr. to have done something and probably much less. Unless someone took LS and just kept on going and never came back (like a guest). Otherwise someone immediately involved who had to come back, would have maybe only had 1 hr total. I think the amount of time they had, would change where and how I would look. So if for example, I had evidence and a significant reason to believe CR did the ditching, but not enough to convict, I would be trying to figure out where CR could go and come back within 1 hr. Maybe a 20 minute radius of 5N. Lots of ground to cover in a 20 minute radius if you look real carefully. People tend to be found a lot closer to where they disappear, than not. The immediate 1 to 2 miles is most likely.

Chris Malone, a neighbor of CR and MB, was the one who said he saw CR that morning (no exact time given, but presumably before noon), asking if he had seen a little blonde girl.
"Several students who saw Rossman in the period after Spierer vanished questioned the "memory loss," saying he had no bruising or redness to his face that would support the claim.

"Supposedly he had that big altercation, but he didn't look like anything happened to him," said senior Chris Malone, who saw Corey the next morning, Feb. 4.

Rossman was outside his apartment, asking Malone if he'd seen Spierer.

"What's up boys?" Malone quoted Rossman as telling him. "Did you happen to see a little blond girl?"

Malone, who hadn't seen her, said he knows Rossman and roommate Mike Beth because they played in his Fantasy Football League and would sometimes grill together.

"They like to party," he said."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-12-lauren-spierer-missing_n.htm
 
This is odd. This forum has the complete text of an article about LS in which someone says they saw CR at CVS, showing no signs of having been in fight. It also has the story about the finding of the keys.

http://victimsheartland.forumotion....elds-nothing-mom-feels-lauren-no-longer-alive

But if you look at the link that is given, the part about the witness at CVS and the keys are not in the article.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-11-lauren-spierer-investigation-dna_n.htm
 
Looking through what is left on the internet about this case, I found an article and a quote I had not seen before.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...message-daughters-attacker.html#ixzz1P39LSrL3

There were other articles in which Carl S. said that they had their theories, but this one gives some information about one of those theories:

"Salzmann, who said his client is not involved in Spierer's disappearance revealed he thought 'there is a lot more to this' case.

'The answer in a good 90 per cent of the cases is someone that they are intimately involved with, he told Fox News."
 
Chris Malone, a neighbor of CR and MB, was the one who said he saw CR that morning (no exact time given, but presumably before noon), asking if he had seen a little blonde girl.
"Several students who saw Rossman in the period after Spierer vanished questioned the "memory loss," saying he had no bruising or redness to his face that would support the claim.

"Supposedly he had that big altercation, but he didn't look like anything happened to him," said senior Chris Malone, who saw Corey the next morning, Feb. 4.

Rossman was outside his apartment, asking Malone if he'd seen Spierer.

"What's up boys?" Malone quoted Rossman as telling him. "Did you happen to see a little blond girl?"

Malone, who hadn't seen her, said he knows Rossman and roommate Mike Beth because they played in his Fantasy Football League and would sometimes grill together.

"They like to party," he said."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-12-lauren-spierer-missing_n.htm

That article is one of the most poorly written, annoying articles about this case. They never even bothered to correct the FEBRUARY date cited, so there's no way to know/ make sense of what else is wrong about it.

After talking about it here though, my best guess is this probably took place on JUNE 3rd, after people started calling around looking for LS, but before she was reported missing. 'Morning' may have been a relative term.

The other article, which cites an anonymous friend at CVS says the afternoon of June 3rd CR was aware Lauren was missing at that time. (Ros, the two links in your post are not to the same article, I don't think)

ETA: The cut and pasted article is also the source of one of the inconsistencies in MB/JR/CR's story.

He [anonymous friend] said Rossman recalled having a lot to drink the previous night and said he went home and passed out. Beth told the friend he put Rossman to bed and that Spierer wanted to leave. Beth told the friend he watched her walk out the door and down the street on her way home, the friend said.
 
'The answer in a good 90 per cent of the cases is someone that they are intimately involved with, he told Fox News."

I think this is a typical defense lawyer tactic of being vague yet fingerpointy at the same time.

Salzmann also suggested that Lauren was helping Corey home, until the video evidence showed up that contradicted this.
 
Can you answer me this:
Intersecting with some of the other information here are some thoughts:

2) Griffy reservoir (as has been brought up several times) would seem another natural place. Can Griffy be ruled out at this point? Don't see how it could.

FYI: Griffy was drained this summer to repair the dam.
http://bloomington.in.gov/griffylake

"Griffy Lake has been almost entirely drained in preparation for repair work on the dam. This photo was taken September 6, 2012 from Headley Road, next to the boathouse."
12617.jpg
 
That article is one of the most poorly written, annoying articles about this case. They never even bothered to correct the FEBRUARY date cited, so there's no way to know/ make sense of what else is wrong about it.

After talking about it here though, my best guess is this probably took place on JUNE 3rd, after people started calling around looking for LS, but before she was reported missing. 'Morning' may have been a relative term.

The other article, which cites an anonymous friend at CVS says the afternoon of June 3rd CR was aware Lauren was missing at that time. (Ros, the two links in your post are not to the same article, I don't think)

ETA: The cut and pasted article is also the source of one of the inconsistencies in MB/JR/CR's story.

Could you list out the inconsistencies you have?
 
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