IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[Jacobite]

A few weeks ago, I phoned Gale St John in Ohio. She told me that she and her dogs are certified and she frequently works with police and at Camp Atterbury. She told me that both of her cadaver dogs had a hit at the 5 N dumpster and on the ground by the dumpster. She also said BPD then told her partner Peterson their dog had a hit at the dumpster as well.
In late August, 2011, Carl Saltzman told me that BPD's tracking dog had lost Lauren's scent near 10th and College Village Apartments.
On 16 January, 2012 Rob Spierer confirmed it was true. He told me the dog lost the live scent in the alley area towards Morton Street.
I think they told me the truth and this is the real and only evidence known to me that points to the three 5 North guys. Live scent lost plus cadaver scent found equals very very bad.
Finally, keep in mind, LE got a search warrant to search the landfill. What do you think they had for probable cause?

 

[AbbeyR]

A few weeks ago, I phoned Gale St John in Ohio. She told me that she and her dogs are certified and she frequently works with police and at Camp Atterbury. She told me that both of her cadaver dogs had a hit at the 5 N dumpster and on the ground by the dumpster. She also said BPD then told her partner Peterson their dog had a hit at the dumpster as well.
In late August, 2011, Carl Saltzman told me that BPD's tracking dog had lost Lauren's scent near 10th and College Village Apartments.
On 16 January, 2012 Rob Spierer confirmed it was true. He told me the dog lost the live scent in the alley area towards Morton Street.
I think they told me the truth and this is the real and only evidence known to me that points to the three 5 North guys. Live scent lost plus cadaver scent found equals very very bad.
Finally, keep in mind, LE got a search warrant to search the landfill. What do you think they had for probable cause?

Yeah, that was the sketchy source I was referring to. Did she say what kind of certification her dogs have? Because I looked this up before and the only thing I could find was was this photo, which shows her two dogs each took a ONE DAY course, in March 2012. http://www.darnfar.com/SAR_DOGS/index.htm

A quick google search also tells me she is a psychic, who appears to regularly insert herself into cases and crime scenes uninvited, and may have been investigated for charity fraud.

If she really does work with police, I hope this info is wrong.

 

[CoolJ]

put her in the dumpster right next to their apartment?? they would be smarter just leaving her on the sidewalk. If they did feel they had to hide her body there must be a reason. If it was an accidental death, they would have been better off just leaving her where she died ( i know it sounds cruel to say.I dont even like typing it). Logic tells me that if they wanted to get rid of a body the reasoning behind it would be "foul play" prior to her accidental death. Since we are talking theories, here is a possible one. The boys planned to "roofie" her. CR bought the roofies from ZO. ZO was pissed because he found out it was Lauren they were using the roofies on, he confronted CR about it (fight at smallwood). The roofies, mixed with other drugs, alcohol and her medical condition caused her to get really messed up and she passed away due to a combination of hitting head several times, medical condition, drugs, etc.. The boys realised if she was found a tox screen would show she was roofied and would get them in Big trouble. Would this be enough of a reason to "get rid of her"?

 

[Jacobite]

The FBI, ISP, and BPD obtained a search warrant for the landfill. What could be the reason?

1. They just wanted to spend some time there and flush a quarter of a million dollars.
2. Their cadaver dogs had a hit on the 5 N dumpster and they had probable cause and good reason to believe she was in the landfill.

 

[CoolJ]

Jacobite, just too much risk putting her in a dumpster right next to their apartment when they were seen with her all night. She simply could have just rested next to the dumpster for a few minutes and that is where the scent came from.

 

[Jacobite]

Cadaver dogs find human decay. But, they can't tell who it is. The tracking dog on the other hand followed Lauren's scent.

Agreed. Using the dumpster by their own apartment sounds really dumb. In reality
it is the one scenario that would work best for them. But, for this to work, they need a garbage truck to empty the dumpster a few hours later and get her out of Bloomington before she is reported missing. I doubt their little plot could be very complicated. These boys had been partying heavily.

In addition, the detective says the people at the Smallwood party stayed put. I take this to mean he has reviewed video and ZO never caught up with CR and Lauren. And without the Indiana boys help, the drunk boys wouldn't be able to do much.

 

[akh]

The FBI, ISP, and BPD obtained a search warrant for the landfill. What could be the reason?

1. They just wanted to spend some time there and flush a quarter of a million dollars.
2. Their cadaver dogs had a hit on the 5 N dumpster and they had probable cause and good reason to believe she was in the landfill.

Here's the potential flaw in your thinking, or knock on LE I suppose:

How many weeks passed between the dogs (allegedly) hitting on the dumpster and the landfill search? That should've been a 'time is of the essence' search if you're going to base it on cadaver dogs. I would suspect the warrant wasn't based on cadaver dogs hits or else there's a serious question of "what took so long?"

Wouldn't a search warrant be an open record normally?

 

[akh]

Jacobite, just too much risk putting her in a dumpster right next to their apartment when they were seen with her all night. She simply could have just rested next to the dumpster for a few minutes and that is where the scent came from.

That assumes they didn't know the dumpster would be emptied in short order (if that is in fact what would be the regularly scheduled pickup for that dumpster).

It also assumes they would be thinking in a clear and calculated way when in fact they could've been in a panic situation and just wanting to separate themselves from a dead body.

It also assumes that the plan was the body wouldn't be found when in fact maybe they thought it would be and were going to naively play dumb and try and blame a homeless person or random stranger. So it could be they had an elaborate story planned that turned out was unnecessary because they (in a sense) got lucky and the dumpster wasn't searched in time nor was the landfill search done in a timely fashion thus leaving them worry free that a body would be found or that they needed any more of a story other than saying she'd left the apartment.

And all of the above makes it surprising LE didn't do some bluffing or gamemanship during the landfill search.

 

[Ros]

Okay, I'll add to the list of inconsistencies in MB's story. Here's every version I can remember, all in one place (I put a few links but I don't have time to find all of these. They are all here somewhere)

the POI's story, according to their lawyers, is that LS and CR went back to CR's after the bar/ Smallwood. MB was home all night working on a paper. MB put CR to bed, LS went to JR's. MB wrote his papers. This story would have you believe that the 3 main POI weren't even hanging out together that night.

But,

- HT said MB was over at JR's earlier that night when LS and CR were there (Pre-bar)
- Before JR's name was in the media, someone on PT said he said he was told by JR's roommate that they all went back to JR's after the bar. (who all?)
- A recent-ish article reported that (according to CS, I think) JR was at the bar that night with them.

Variations on what happened at CR/MB's

- LS stayed for a while after MB put CR to bed (some articles said 1 hour) then left
- LS wanted to leave after he put CR to bed. He watched her walk out the door and towards home (friend says CR told him this directly -- article quoted a few posts ago)
- LS still wanted to party, asked MB to join her, he said no, so she left to go to JR's
- MB watched LS leave the apartment heading to JR's via HT (link)
- MB called JR because LS was not in good shape and JR knew her better than he did, so she became "JR's problem" (paraphrasing from memory, from the PI's on the Lohud video)
- MB took her over to JR's
- MB and JR tried to get her to sleep over, but she refused (Lohud 2012) link

MB's cooperation with the investigation:
- MB's lawyer says he is totally cooperating with LE
- Spierers / LE/ news reports say the POI have been 'silent' / not fully cooperating
- MB gives DNA sample, but refuses to take an LE poly
- MB and CR deny who they are when a reporter tries to ask them a question, then complain that media coverage of Lauren's case ruining their lives. MB threatens to call the police. (link)
- (someone claiming to be) MB's mom posts on IDS to 'clear her son's name' and says they would be happy to talk to the Spierers and do anything to help
- Spierers say MB is among the POI who have never talked to them (June 2012)
- (Edited to add) DR and MB have the same lawyer. DR has taken LE polygraph, MB has not.


Phew! Anything else?

The inconsistencies with MB are a key reason I don't think the POI's have told the truth about what happened that night. MB's role as alibi-maker/ helpful roommate/ studious innocent is too neat and it's hard to imagine how there could be so many conflicting reports if it was actually true. It's possible that at least some of the inconsistencies came from sloppy reporting and/or 3rd hand accounts from friends. But even if you discount all of those, I agree with VV that the original statement made by MB's lawyer (like that made by CR's lawyer) does not fit with the info that has been made public since then.

There's also the version where MB goes upstairs with CR, then when MB comes back downstairs, LS is gone.

 

[imkeylime]

put her in the dumpster right next to their apartment?? they would be smarter just leaving her on the sidewalk. If they did feel they had to hide her body there must be a reason. If it was an accidental death, they would have been better off just leaving her where she died ( i know it sounds cruel to say.I dont even like typing it). Logic tells me that if they wanted to get rid of a body the reasoning behind it would be "foul play" prior to her accidental death. Since we are talking theories, here is a possible one. The boys planned to "roofie" her. CR bought the roofies from ZO. ZO was pissed because he found out it was Lauren they were using the roofies on, he confronted CR about it (fight at smallwood). The roofies, mixed with other drugs, alcohol and her medical condition caused her to get really messed up and she passed away due to a combination of hitting head several times, medical condition, drugs, etc.. The boys realised if she was found a tox screen would show she was roofied and would get them in Big trouble. Would this be enough of a reason to "get rid of her"?

I agree that there has to be a strong reason for the POIs to dispose of LS' body if that's what happened. I'm not sure anymore if "accidental death" due to a typical OD is enough, unless one of the POIs was a big DD on campus, which seems unlikely. Drugs of many types are so common on today's campuses. IMO, a POI would typically risk a drug bust vs. risk disposing of a body unless there was some other convincing evidence of a crime.

What you suggest could be such evidence.

 

[Ros]

Is there any reason why LS could not have returned to the home of MB and CR after leaving JR's?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Jacobite, just too much risk putting her in a dumpster right next to their apartment when they were seen with her all night. She simply could have just rested next to the dumpster for a few minutes and that is where the scent came from.

It's been a while since b-town posted an amazing array of photos and maps. I don't recall a detailed overhead view of 5N. If there is such a thing I would like to see it... the dumpster in relation to the 5N entrance. How close the dumpster is to Morton. The line of sight from where the keys/wallet were found to the dumpster and 5N Entrance, etc...

 

[EllaMae]

put her in the dumpster right next to their apartment?? they would be smarter just leaving her on the sidewalk. If they did feel they had to hide her body there must be a reason. If it was an accidental death, they would have been better off just leaving her where she died ( i know it sounds cruel to say.I dont even like typing it). Logic tells me that if they wanted to get rid of a body the reasoning behind it would be "foul play" prior to her accidental death. Since we are talking theories, here is a possible one. The boys planned to "roofie" her. CR bought the roofies from ZO. ZO was pissed because he found out it was Lauren they were using the roofies on, he confronted CR about it (fight at smallwood). The roofies, mixed with other drugs, alcohol and her medical condition caused her to get really messed up and she passed away due to a combination of hitting head several times, medical condition, drugs, etc.. The boys realised if she was found a tox screen would show she was roofied and would get them in Big trouble. Would this be enough of a reason to "get rid of her"?

Roofies clear the body very quickly, and don't usually show up on tox screens. That's why they are chosen for such an evil purpose.....it's hard for a victim to prove he or she was drugged.


http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/date-rape-drugs.cfm

 

[Skigirl]

put her in the dumpster right next to their apartment?? they would be smarter just leaving her on the sidewalk. If they did feel they had to hide her body there must be a reason. If it was an accidental death, they would have been better off just leaving her where she died ( i know it sounds cruel to say.I dont even like typing it). Logic tells me that if they wanted to get rid of a body the reasoning behind it would be "foul play" prior to her accidental death. Since we are talking theories, here is a possible one. The boys planned to "roofie" her. CR bought the roofies from ZO. ZO was pissed because he found out it was Lauren they were using the roofies on, he confronted CR about it (fight at smallwood). The roofies, mixed with other drugs, alcohol and her medical condition caused her to get really messed up and she passed away due to a combination of hitting head several times, medical condition, drugs, etc.. The boys realised if she was found a tox screen would show she was roofied and would get them in Big trouble. Would this be enough of a reason to "get rid of her"?

Maybe they didn't even have to worry about a tox screen. Maybe they were worried that there would be evidence that she'd had sex with one or more of the POIs and that DNA would lead back to them. That would raise all kinds of questions about exactly who had given what to LS, and how much.

 

[Ros]

Maybe they didn't even have to worry about a tox screen. Maybe they were worried that there would be evidence that she'd had sex with one or more of the POIs and that DNA would lead back to them. That would raise all kinds of questions about exactly who had given what to LS, and how much.

What evidence of a crime could still be present after all this time? If they hid her body to avoid being connected to a crime, why not send an anonymous letter giving the location of her body? By now, evidence of rape or acute poisoning would be so degraded as to be useless.

If she died due to a fractured skull, though, why hide the body, why not simply state that she fell on her head?

 

[EllaMae]

Maybe they didn't even have to worry about a tox screen. Maybe they were worried that there would be evidence that she'd had sex with one or more of the POIs and that DNA would lead back to them. That would raise all kinds of questions about exactly who had given what to LS, and how much.

That's always been one of my theories.....that 1, 2, or maybe all 3 guys raped her while she was in no shape to consent, and she was unable to defend herself. During the commission of that crime it's possible that she died. There would be physical evidence of rape and also DNA.

I really hope that didn't happen to her.

 

[akh]

What evidence of a crime could still be present after all this time? If they hid her body to avoid being connected to a crime, why not send an anonymous letter giving the location of her body? By now, evidence of rape or acute poisoning would be so degraded as to be useless.

In these days of forensics and the ability to work with the smallest of trace evidence how anonymous would a letter really be? And how paranoid would someone be of that fact even if they wanted to send a letter?

Also, the location of a body could be enough for LE to piece some things together. So again, no matter how much someone would want to do the right thing, could they do it with the fear it would ultimately connect them to a crime?

If she died due to a fractured skull, though, why hide the body, why not simply state that she fell on her head?

You're still back to the problem of them giving her something that caused her to fall (or whatever the case might be to cause a fractured skull or other head injury) and fears of prosecution. And even if they didn't provide something there's always the problem that paranoia set in and someone thought those injuries might be misconstrued. Or that they'd be accused of providing drugs. Or even forced to turn in a drug supplier if it wasn't them.

 

[Ros]

Somewhat off topic, but there's been another mysterious disappearance of a young person in central Indiana:

http://findjoshuaswalls.com/

and

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190295"]ACTIVE SEARCH IN - Joshua Swalls, 22, Indianapolis, 3 Nov 2012 - missing from friend's apartment - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Snapfade]

Is there any reason why LS could not have returned to the home of MB and CR after leaving JR's?

I had'nt considered this before..im thinking that she could have returned to CR+MB looking for any of the items she lost .....Since she had not used her cell since 12:16 and ,according to JR , she was searcng for her phone, I would think it probable, for her to return there since she had already been there twice .that morning.

 

[Btown]

It's been a while since b-town posted an amazing array of photos and maps. I don't recall a detailed overhead view of 5N. If there is such a thing I would like to see it... the dumpster in relation to the 5N entrance. How close the dumpster is to Morton. The line of sight from where the keys/wallet were found to the dumpster and 5N Entrance, etc...

Yes, it was line of sight from the dumpster to the handrail that the keys/wallet were found at, (depending on the trees/shrubs).
The entrances to 5 North are facing North on 11th Street.
The dumpster is behind the apartments. There are no back doors that I remember, (I'll have to double check that).

You can see the 10th & College Village apartments in the background of the dumpster pic, (where the handrail is located that the keys/wallet was claimed to be found). You can also see the South West corner of 5 North in the picture. I was standing on the sidewalk on Morton, at the South West corner of 5 North when I took the picture of the dumpster.

New construction on the old gravel lot has now blocked the line of sight, but this Google maps pic gives you the overview.

A bit more detail of the dumpster location.

The dumpster is the type a garbage truck empties into the truck. The company name on the dumpster was Sears & Sons. Anyone can contact them for more info about their schedule, if they take the trash to a transfer station, straight to the dump, etc.

You now have more info about the dumpster than I ever dreamed would be needed when I posted that pic on 06-14-2011...


Where are you Lauren?