IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28
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The wording is a bit different in that article than in the People article. I think it's possible that the 5th is DR, who did eventually take an FBI polygraph and that the author was incorrectly summarizing Charlene's words in the People article...? Not sure though.
Few questions to induce discussion:
1.Was there ever an arrest made in the sexual assult of the girl that pepper sprayed her attacker as she walked home alone from Kilroys several months ago?
2. Was C.R. dating anyone?
3. Was J.R. dating anyone?
4. Did C.R. D.R. and L.S. stop at C.R.'s after leaving party at 5N.....Might have been opportune time to cut some dope before delivery back to S.W.
1.Was there ever an arrest made in the sexual assult of the girl that pepper sprayed her attacker as she walked home alone from Kilroys several months ago?
2. Was C.R. dating anyone?
3. Was J.R. dating anyone?
4. Did C.R. D.R. and L.S. stop at C.R.'s after leaving party at 5N.....Might have been opportune time to cut some dope before delivery back to S.W.
I've been thinking about this. I've never put too much weight into the video stuff for a few reasons:
- I think most cameras are designed to protect property not to record people walking by, and I have doubts about the reliability and quality of these kinds of cameras
- I suck at maps, so despite the awesome work done by some of the members here to show where security cameras are, I still don't totally understand what route someone would have had to take to avoid cameras, or what route someone would have been, for sure, caught on camera
-I still don't understand the white truck fiasco. It's not that I think it's a conspiracy, I just don't understand why LE was confused about it. If they initially thought the truck circled based on the time being off on one video, does this mean there wasn't a single other car caught by those two cameras during this time frame? Did we ever figure that out?
There's no real point to this post, I'm just thinking about some questions posed recently about how Lauren could have been taken from the area, by anyone, in a car or on foot, and how relevant cameras are.
Also, I have a question for the Bloomington people. What is the B-line? I know from googling it is a bike path, but:
- It goes through the city and then through woodsy/ rural areas, right?
- Does it pass through/ near the area Lauren was last seen?
- how isolated is it?
- was it under construction or completed when Lauren went missing?
- could a car drive on it?
- are there cameras?
Thanks Snapfade, we must have been thinking along the same lines... good to see some questions to bump this post back up.
I've especially wondered about your first question. The guy was sprayed with purple dye right? I would hope that someone must have seen and reported him!
VeryVeritas
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Noted something similar to this before, that it seems these guys didn't have girlfriends and there were no known Females at JR's that night other than LS.
I do find this situation curious. Are any of them gay? Is there a reason why females were not present?
I can recall some incidents back in my college days when girls were present, but knew how to duck into the shadows when something went down. While males happily covered for them without any conversation.
Another dimension: For those that think strongest of theories that LS was sexually assaulted, I wonder if there has been a deep enough appeal for women to speak up who have stories to tell involving the POI's. As we know sexual assaults more often than not go unreported and especially if the perp is known to the victim.
Jumping off your post because you make a great point. Are there other females in Bloomington who were acquaintances of any of the main male players thinking "That could have been me! (Insert name) took advantage of me/sexually assaulted me/raped me after a night of partying once."
Would be interesting to know. Hopefully if this is the case, those young women would have contacted LE when LS went missing. But you're right, so many sexual assault or rape cases go unreported. Two big reasons I can think of why one wouldn't go to LE: being scared-- "they did something bad to LS, why not me?" OR to avoid the media frenzy and the public eye that may come along with coming out of the woodwork to accuse one of these men of a sexual assault.
I keep coming back to possibility LS was stalked from Kilroys. There was a lot of time between when she left Kilroys and when she last seen. There are also different locations she went to which makes me think nobody could follow her for almost 2 hrs and follow her in and out of SW to CR's and to JR's and then wait till she finally alone then abduct her....UNLIKELY but for one reason. The perp knows eventually shes coming for her phone. .... does the theory have credibility with anyone?
Also thinking that if random abuction , the perp would be worried that cell would be located by GPS, unless of course he already knew the cells location.
Also thinking that if random abuction , the perp would be worried that cell would be located by GPS, unless of course he already knew the cells location.
Good point about appealing to others to come forward, if there are others. Now is the time.
Re: other females present. IDK if that's a red flag, really. It sounds like lone guys were also watching the game at JW's. From what I hear from my kids (one college, one late HS), the boundaries between hanging out/hooking up and dating are different now. LS and JW were dating, for example, but it would be OK for her to hang out with JR, I think. OTOH, it sounds like CR had more than that in mind. That makes me wonder if LS and JW were solid at that point, i.e., would CR be hitting on her if he knew she was in a committed relationshi? OTOH, maybe he has a rep for that ... and that was another reason ZO punched him. JMO.
I agree with keylime about guys hanging out not being a red flag, and I don't think it's weird that Lauren could have ended up hanging out with them, since they were friends (or friends of friends) -- but it's also worth noting that the only time that LS ended up at a place with just these guys alone, she was carried there in what seems like an unconscious or semi-conscious state.
I've been trying to consider the night without the assumptions that come from the stories of the POI (Why should we take their word for anything, when they have contradictory stories and have never told the whole story?) So. Take out their claim that LS was wandering around looking to party, which sounds highly unlikely, and what does Lauren's night look like?
She went with a friend (DR) to JR's where a bunch of people were hanging out 'pregaming', according to HT. So this implies they planned to go to the bar after, which they did. There would have been other people LS knew at the bar. TG's accounts of kilroys have said this as well, and one early rumor (sorry no link) is that friends there saw she looked out of it and 'sent her home'. And then, she headed home -- back to Smallwood. At that point, we have the altercation with ZO, and we know she's intoxicated, so it's hard to know why she went back to CR's. There has been a kind of assumption by many that she was still looking to party and/ or hook up with CR, but:
- Was she even capable of knowing what was going on or where she was going at that point? I find it creepy that CR's lawyer made a public statement that Lauren was "helping" CR get home, and then when the videos and witness descriptions came out, it turned out to be described as the exact opposite.
- Jumping off the post about the phone, if LS was conscious (which I don't think we can take as a given), it's possible she was just planning on going by to look for her lost phone. Maybe there was a grain of truth to JR"s story. Who knows.
But the key point is - why did she end up alone with these guys after 3 am at 5N? Because, according to the last person other than a POI who saw her, CR carried her there, half conscious, over his shoulders. That part is a red flag. No one brought her the couple blocks back to her apartment. No one called a taxi. No one called anyone for help.
cluciano63
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If I was a stalker, I think I would have expected Lauren to stay overnight at the townhouses, and would not hang around as late as 4am thinking she would happen to emerge and leave on foot alone.
Also, I always have trouble with the chances of a victim running into a random perp, on a night filled with unusual activities, same as in the case of Kortne Stouffer. It just seems too coincidental, though of course at least possible, I guess.
Also, I always have trouble with the chances of a victim running into a random perp, on a night filled with unusual activities, same as in the case of Kortne Stouffer. It just seems too coincidental, though of course at least possible, I guess.
Ixchel13
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the B Line is 4 or 5 blocks away-- but closer to a real railroad is House Bar, cuddled right next to a RR underpass .75 blocks from JR's and doesn't even have to have a liquor license because it is less than 200 ft. from a railroad.
B Line was mostly completed then. A car could drive on it, but IMO this would be noted by someone. Not sure about how many cameras, but there def are
some around the city part of it--will check.
IF Lauren DID leave JR's, , there is a very good chance of a random abduction. Lots and lots and lots of weirdos in that area. Also if she did leave, like someone else pointed out, the houseguest could have easily followed her. Bet anything that LE is watching that guy.
The phone is fishy no doubt. What if JW had the phone, put it back over the fence, and then repeatedly called it ? If she knew someone might've taken it from Kilroy's as a favor for her, how effed up was she? OTOH, if she didn't think the phone was at Kilroy's and she was calling around for it, then that could indicate she knew she didn't leave it there; thus someone brought it back there. Another reason she might not have called her own phone to find it was that she was worried that JW had it. Someone might have cadged her phone at Kilroy's and given it to him.
I have a hard time coming up with a viable chain of events that would include a stranger stalker from Kilroys. I too, cannot ignore all the anomalies that night. It would hard to believe that a stranger abuction would happen after all these anomolies.
This is a list of what I consider anomolies.
1. she is partying with a new group of friends.
2. she is partying with all boys
3. she is out with these boys, and not her boyfriend
4. she does not use her cell after 12:16
5. she is possibly experimenting with harder drugs than she might normally use.
6. she is not with her boyfriend, and ends up hanging out alone with a boy, that has told others that he would like to know LS sexually.
7. that boy is banned from LS apartment and gets in a fight with a guy thats also banned from the complex
8. her friends dont even check up on her after knowing the guys she is with has just neen in fight.
9. she looses track of her cell
10. she is walking aroynd barefooted
11. she looses her keys and wristlet
12. she falls and hits her head.
13. her boyfriend goes to be, d with no concern that his girlfriend wont answr texts and was suppose to be at his house.
14. the boy shes with hets amniesia
15. she asks MB to party even tho she is in such bad shape he had to help her to JRs
16. JR lets a girl walk back home alone amd barefooted at 415, even after seeing injuries she recieved while walking to his 5N
Im sure ive omitted a few major anomolies but how could this be a stranger abdution?
In June of 2011 on there were reports that JW's Facebook page had implied that JW and LS had just reunited after going through a rocky period. However, on June 24, on PT, aaronwg (allegedly JW's roommate) said that he thought they had a great relationship and that JW did not know what she was up to that night since he was watching the Mavs game.
In June of 2011 on there were reports that JW's Facebook page had implied that JW and LS had just reunited after going through a rocky period. However, on June 24, on PT, aaronwg (allegedly JW's roommate) said that he thought they had a great relationship and that JW did not know what she was up to that night since he was watching the Mavs game.
SmoothOperator
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I agree its difficult to discern exactly where the female witness' account ends and when the account of the last video footage from cam near Rossman's apt begins/ends...
For instance I was under the impression the female witness' acct begins around the time that they stop for the first seat on the steps out front apt building..Lauren two steps higher than Rossman...that the witness not only SEES, BUT ALSO HEARS the loud sound of Lauren slumping over on concrete steps and banging her head on the concrete...
I then understand that Rossman helped her up and they walked into the apt building and knocked on the door of 4 girls they were partying with earlier in the night...when they got no answer about a minute later they reappeared outside on the concrete steps to which they again sat down(I was understanding this to still be the acct of the female witness, right?)
at that point again Lauren is seen very messed up and literally seeming to slump, fall, etc,.. that Rossman gets her up from the steps to head onto his apt(Lauren leaves behind her keys AND ID on steps)... I was still under the impression as this acct coming from witness...
at that point Lauren and Rossman go into an alley heading to his apt..that Lauren literally went face first into the asphalt WITHOUT SO MUCH AS EVEN PUTTING HER ARMS OUT TO BRACE HERSELF AS SHE FELL FACE FIRST INTO ASPHALT!<-- This I was unclear on whether it came from witness acct or the video footage near the alleyway??
Rossman again picks her up and they keep heading to his apt.. shortly thereafter Lauren again collapses and falls to the ground...at that point Rossman slings her on his back with her arms slung over each shoulder and held by him while she dangled off his back, rather than grasping on with her legs as one would do "piggy back".. as Abbey says above PI is clear on the fact that Lauren was definitely still alive and somewhat conscious AT THAT POINT IN TIME...<--IMO I was under the impression this last SIGHTING WAS ALSO THE WITNESS, CORRECT?
So, when and what was seen on the video footage last seen of Lauren and Rossman from one of the cams near his apt?
TIA for any clarification anyone can provide
*Sorry for quoting myself, but just wanted to bring forward the details so as to reference for further discussing this topic..*
Yes it would certainly be nice to have confirmation from the mouth of which the entire above described originated(ie the PI)..
I want to go with this a bit further in clarifying what exactly it is that we know about that last known video captured of Lauren and Rossman en route to his apt at 5N.. offhand I don't recall what they said that the time stamp was on that last known video of LS/CR(for some reason I seem to remember that we were given that info of time stamp on video)..is that right? If so, anyone recall offhand what that time was?
Also the actual video footage from cam near alleyway closest to 5N that shows Lauren and Rossman..was this literally video footage?..or was it merely a cam that every few seconds it captures a pic, therefor the footage would actually be still frames that were captured??.. IMO that's an important detail to clarify if anyone can recall..
IMO this clarification could potentially better clarify the PI's description that we above discussed...as in IMO it would determine how much of that above described account of Lauren's last documented moments are based on witness accts vs. based on the cam footage.
Regarding the discussion of this PI description actually based on 2 witnesses+alley cam footage, rather than just the 1 witness(bartender)+alley cam footage... IMO the idea of there being an actual additional witness besides just that of bartender IMO makes sense in that I personally don't believe that alley cam had any significant amount of footage or stills that would be of much importance in documenting Lauren's movements while walking to 5N<<--so, IMO if that's true then IMO its not likely that just ONE witness saw all those movements simply due to the logistics of the layout of the area that Lauren and Rossman were in/around while traveling to 5N..
Below is my breaking down those movements and what was most likeliest to have been seen by the bartender witness..
Starting with the bartender seeing :
-LS/CR first sitting down on concrete steps out front of apt building where the 4 girls lived that were from earlier party.
-her seeing Lauren's head smack on concrete step..
-her seeing LS/CR get up&walk into apt building for approx 1 minute..
-her seeing both again sit down on same concrete steps..
IMO bartender witness *could* also be the witness that :
-saw LS/CR get up from concrete steps the second time
-saw Lauren leave behind her keys&ID on the concrete steps
-saw LS/CR walk away from apt building and into alley .
But then was the bartender able to witness :
-Lauren stumbling while walking in alleyway and falling face first into asphalt with no reactive reflex such as even bracing herself for fall with her arms.
-Cory helping her up and they continue down alley toward 5N
-Lauren again stumbles and falls to the ground
-and lastly Cory picking her up and has each arm draped over each of his shoulders with her legs dangling down his back
The movements decribed PI ends after the last sight of CR's carrying LS on his back..with confirmation that she was alive and somewhat conscious at this last known sighting of the two..
So, in looking at the logistics of the layout of these areas above where Lauren's last being seen I see it likely that there would almost have to be another witness at some point after the bartender no longer had the two in her visual sight?..
Can anyone clarify this by better knowing that layout and whether the bartender witness would have even been able to see all of the above listed movements of LS/CR?..IS THAT POSSIBLE THAT SHE COULD ACTUALLY HAVE A VANTAGE POINT TO SEE THE TWO THROUGHOUT ALL OF THE ABOVE MOVEMENTS DETAILED BY THE PI??
also any clarification regarding that last alley cam footage of LS/CR en route to 5N..
TIA
Snipped by me. Good list. While I agree it's a long shot, I'd consider a crime of opportunity over a stranger stalker. Based on the "anomalies" you describe, I have to believe a POI/POIs is/are involved. But playing devil's advocate, if CR left LS alone outside 5N, or if she indeed somehow left 5N at a later point, she would have been prey in her condition. But it's hard to imagine her luck getting that much worse, you know?
She definitely would have been in nocondition to defend herself.. I still find myself going to the point she leaves JR's.
Who knew how messed up she was?
Who knew she had left JR's and began walking home.. DB, MB, CR, JR ..
My latest theory has one of these 4 , as the perp.. I listed them in order from most likely to least likely.
JMO
VeryVeritas
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*Sorry for quoting myself, but just wanted to bring forward the details so as to reference for further discussing this topic..*
Yes it would certainly be nice to have confirmation from the mouth of which the entire above described originated(ie the PI)..
I want to go with this a bit further in clarifying what exactly it is that we know about that last known video captured of Lauren and Rossman en route to his apt at 5N.. offhand I don't recall what they said that the time stamp was on that last known video of LS/CR(for some reason I seem to remember that we were given that info of time stamp on video)..is that right? If so, anyone recall offhand what that time was?
Also the actual video footage from cam near alleyway closest to 5N that shows Lauren and Rossman..was this literally video footage?..or was it merely a cam that every few seconds it captures a pic, therefor the footage would actually be still frames that were captured??.. IMO that's an important detail to clarify if anyone can recall..
IMO this clarification could potentially better clarify the PI's description that we above discussed...as in IMO it would determine how much of that above described account of Lauren's last documented moments are based on witness accts vs. based on the cam footage.
Regarding the discussion of this PI description actually based on 2 witnesses+alley cam footage, rather than just the 1 witness(bartender)+alley cam footage... IMO the idea of there being an actual additional witness besides just that of bartender IMO makes sense in that I personally don't believe that alley cam had any significant amount of footage or stills that would be of much importance in documenting Lauren's movements while walking to 5N<<--so, IMO if that's true then IMO its not likely that just ONE witness saw all those movements simply due to the logistics of the layout of the area that Lauren and Rossman were in/around while traveling to 5N..
Below is my breaking down those movements and what was most likeliest to have been seen by the bartender witness..
Starting with the bartender seeing :
-LS/CR first sitting down on concrete steps out front of apt building where the 4 girls lived that were from earlier party.
-her seeing Lauren's head smack on concrete step..
-her seeing LS/CR get up&walk into apt building for approx 1 minute..
-her seeing both again sit down on same concrete steps..
IMO bartender witness *could* also be the witness that :
-saw LS/CR get up from concrete steps the second time
-saw Lauren leave behind her keys&ID on the concrete steps
-saw LS/CR walk away from apt building and into alley .
But then was the bartender able to witness :
-Lauren stumbling while walking in alleyway and falling face first into asphalt with no reactive reflex such as even bracing herself for fall with her arms.
-Cory helping her up and they continue down alley toward 5N
-Lauren again stumbles and falls to the ground
-and lastly Cory picking her up and has each arm draped over each of his shoulders with her legs dangling down his back
The movements decribed PI ends after the last sight of CR's carrying LS on his back..with confirmation that she was alive and somewhat conscious at this last known sighting of the two..
So, in looking at the logistics of the layout of these areas above where Lauren's last being seen I see it likely that there would almost have to be another witness at some point after the bartender no longer had the two in her visual sight?..
Can anyone clarify this by better knowing that layout and whether the bartender witness would have even been able to see all of the above listed movements of LS/CR?..IS THAT POSSIBLE THAT SHE COULD ACTUALLY HAVE A VANTAGE POINT TO SEE THE TWO THROUGHOUT ALL OF THE ABOVE MOVEMENTS DETAILED BY THE PI??
also any clarification regarding that last alley cam footage of LS/CR en route to 5N..
TIA
This highlights one of the most glaring inconsistencies of the night. CR was very capable of carrying and navigating while LS was barely if at all conscious. Yet within minutes MB's account is a total reversal of roles, suddenly it is CR that needs to be put to bed and LS who is perky. MB goes on to describe LS as helping put CR to bed, not just being a passive observer. MB's accounts both directly and via his Lawyer totally contradict events leading up to CR's return to CR/MB's apartment. But MB's account DOES reinforce CR's later claim of Amnesia(which also seems inconsistent with known and witnessed events leading up to the return to his apt).
If anyone should have been cared for and put to bed, it should have been LS. If anyone should have had amnesia it also should have been LS. It was not LS helping CR back to his apt because he'd been clocked by another rogue , she had trouble just standing up and within a few minutes was no longer capable of standing. Instead he helped her up several times and was witnessed carrying her on his back. I've heard zero accounts of him slamming his head, crawling around on all fours barfing, etc... by all accounts he was in good shape. Until you talk to MB. Then suddenly CR is vomiting and incapacitated and LS is supergirl and helps MB get CR to bed.
How very surreal!
VeryVeritas
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And so what is wrong with this picture? And what is not wrong?
1) JW may have been walking a tightrope with LS. He should speak up about the rules of their relationship. If he were the type to get jealous and throw a fit about her hanging out, that would be hard to hide. If instead he were more tolerable and the relationship existed without serious commitments(like traditional stuff leading to engagement, marriage, etc...) then expectations of immediate accountability would have been perceived as clingy insecurities. (which is a huge turn off for most young attractive females). My own perception of JW is as more of a slacker, who was not particularly motivated to do anything that night and very likely did just fall asleep. It's not what I would have done, but there are plenty out there like that. There has been no proof, no sightings, no texts, etc...AT ALL to suggest that JW was anywhere other than his place.
2) Very wrong is the strange account of MB which does not fit known circumstances.
3) Very wrong is the last verifiable person to have seen LS getting Amnesia.
4) Very wrong is it that she is CARRIED TO 5N, but is said to walk away, alone, barefoot, seriously injured, a short time later.
5) JR's account is paradoxical. While he acknowledges her injuries and the seriousness of her condition (at least to some extent) in contradiction with MB's story, he inexplicably claims to just let her walk out the door.
6) Very wrong is that we have CR,MB and JR the last 3 to either have been known to be with LS or to claim to have been the last to see her, all LYING! 1 known truth terminating in convenient Amnesia, 2 bogus stories ending with a missing person. All 3 linked by LS and her supposed movements (from one apt to another, next to each other in the same building) over the course of a few minutes to as much as an hour.
Why does CR need to have Amnesia? It must be because of what transpires AFTER he gets to CR/MB's apt. Everything up to that point is pretty clear.
Why does MB tell such a bald-faced Lie about LS's condition? It must be because of what transpires after CR brings LS to CR/MB's.
Why does JR get involved and fib about LS leaving on her own? Because MB called him at 3:30 to let him know what was going on. Because JR went to CR/MB's and saw LS's condition. Now that he (JR) has been directly pulled into it, and having culpability due to the earlier partying at his place, and other reasons he must explain something that deflects the blame not only from himself but CR/MB as well. Because if he points the finger at CR/MB they surely point 2 fingers at him. My feeling is that LS died at CR/MB's and the 3 are covering it up. And also that a 4th person is likely involved and that person is key in removing LS body.
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