IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

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Why does CR need to have Amnesia?
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This is a good question because with two people alibiing him and claiming to see her after he did then what is the point of claiming amnesia (assuming it's a lie)?
 
akh said:
This is a good question because with two people alibiing him and claiming to see her after he did then what is the point of claiming amnesia (assuming it's a lie)?
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it's likely he knows what happened to her and was convinced it would come to light quickly, thus he planned to use "amnesia" as his excuse once everyone knew what happened to her. he didn't bet on it being a year later and her not being found.

i still think it's likely that whatever happened to her was sloppy and should have been discovered. i think all involved expected her to be found quickly. i think it's just dumb luck that it's taken this long.
 
VeryVeritas said:
And so what is wrong with this picture? And what is not wrong?
1) JW may have been walking a tightrope with LS. He should speak up about the rules of their relationship. If he were the type to get jealous and throw a fit about her hanging out, that would be hard to hide. If instead he were more tolerable and the relationship existed without serious commitments(like traditional stuff leading to engagement, marriage, etc...) then expectations of immediate accountability would have been perceived as clingy insecurities. (which is a huge turn off for most young attractive females). My own perception of JW is as more of a slacker, who was not particularly motivated to do anything that night and very likely did just fall asleep. It's not what I would have done, but there are plenty out there like that. There has been no proof, no sightings, no texts, etc...AT ALL to suggest that JW was anywhere other than his place....

Why does CR need to have Amnesia? It must be because of what transpires AFTER he gets to CR/MB's apt. Everything up to that point is pretty clear.
Why does MB tell such a bald-faced Lie about LS's condition? It must be because of what transpires after CR brings LS to CR/MB's.
Why does JR get involved and fib about LS leaving on her own? Because MB called him at 3:30 to let him know what was going on. Because JR went to CR/MB's and saw LS's condition. Now that he (JR) has been directly pulled into it, and having culpability due to the earlier partying at his place, and other reasons he must explain something that deflects the blame not only from himself but CR/MB as well. Because if he points the finger at CR/MB they surely point 2 fingers at him. My feeling is that LS died at CR/MB's and the 3 are covering it up. And also that a 4th person is likely involved and that person is key in removing LS body.
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Snipped by me. IMO, it's not that big of a deal that LS was hanging out with male friends ... it was likely just to party, which JW knew she did. The problem, again IMO, is that CR had agenda. If JW knew about that (was told about what happened at SW, for example), I'd wonder about his behavior. As is, I don't think it's strange.

While I think your theory makes a lot of sense, it seems like cadaver dogs should have detected more at 5N if she did die there. Perhaps she fell unconscious and someone offered to get her help but then panicked en route ... or she never made it into 5N proper?
 
VeryVeritas said:
And so what is wrong with this picture? And what is not wrong?
1) JW may have been walking a tightrope with LS. He should speak up about the rules of their relationship. If he were the type to get jealous and throw a fit about her hanging out, that would be hard to hide. If instead he were more tolerable and the relationship existed without serious commitments(like traditional stuff leading to engagement, marriage, etc...) then expectations of immediate accountability would have been perceived as clingy insecurities. (which is a huge turn off for most young attractive females). My own perception of JW is as more of a slacker, who was not particularly motivated to do anything that night and very likely did just fall asleep. It's not what I would have done, but there are plenty out there like that. There has been no proof, no sightings, no texts, etc...AT ALL to suggest that JW was anywhere other than his place.
2) Very wrong is the strange account of MB which does not fit known circumstances.
3) Very wrong is the last verifiable person to have seen LS getting Amnesia.
4) Very wrong is it that she is CARRIED TO 5N, but is said to walk away, alone, barefoot, seriously injured, a short time later.

5) JR's account is paradoxical. While he acknowledges her injuries and the seriousness of her condition (at least to some extent) in contradiction with MB's story, he inexplicably claims to just let her walk out the door.
6) Very wrong is that we have CR,MB and JR the last 3 to either have been known to be with LS or to claim to have been the last to see her, all LYING! 1 known truth terminating in convenient Amnesia, 2 bogus stories ending with a missing person. All 3 linked by LS and her supposed movements (from one apt to another, next to each other in the same building) over the course of a few minutes to as much as an hour.

Why does CR need to have Amnesia? It must be because of what transpires AFTER he gets to CR/MB's apt. Everything up to that point is pretty clear.
Why does MB tell such a bald-faced Lie about LS's condition? It must be because of what transpires after CR brings LS to CR/MB's.
Why does JR get involved and fib about LS leaving on her own? Because MB called him at 3:30 to let him know what was going on. Because JR went to CR/MB's and saw LS's condition. Now that he (JR) has been directly pulled into it, and having culpability due to the earlier partying at his place, and other reasons he must explain something that deflects the blame not only from himself but CR/MB as well. Because if he points the finger at CR/MB they surely point 2 fingers at him. My feeling is that LS died at CR/MB's and the 3 are covering it up. And also that a 4th person is likely involved and that person is key in removing LS body.
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Ive always had hard time believing that more than one was involed until Now. You connect some important dots for me , with the call to JR and two fingers pointing back at him. Allow me to elaborate on your theory a step further.

They have plan to get rid of body but they dont know where LS cell is. JR has DR number and tries to contact him. They dont need phone to follow thru with plan but it sure would be nice to know who shes been communicating with and what about. My guess is they would get rid of cell in different location than LS... If the 2nd call was, to a passed out CR , they were looking for her cell phone.... Sorry about getting so speculative on your theory that seems so probable.
 
masootz said:
it's likely he knows what happened to her and was convinced it would come to light quickly, thus he planned to use "amnesia" as his excuse once everyone knew what happened to her. he didn't bet on it being a year later and her not being found.

i still think it's likely that whatever happened to her was sloppy and should have been discovered. i think all involved expected her to be found quickly. i think it's just dumb luck that it's taken this long.
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This really doesn't work unless he played the amnesia card before the others volunteered to create an alibi for him (thus leaving him stuck to his story). The reason to create an amnesia story is to allow for some type of insanity defense. But you totally cancel that out with 2 people then claiming to see her after you've last had contact.

IOW, if 3 people are sitting around trying to concoct a cover story it seems odd to use amnesia for one when the others are going to cover for you anyway. I'd think the more plausible thought would be to go ahead and claim to remember until you handoff your cover story to the next person in the story.

So answering my own questions here... One possibility would be CR creating the amnesia story in order to negate being a source of info and getting caught in a lie and just leaving 2 people needing to keep a cover story straight. But IMHO that leaves CR looking more guilty and would keep the spotlight brighter on him.

Another answer could be CR doing something before reaching his apartment, claiming blackout/amnesia and no idea where LS is, and MB and JR simply covering for him with no other involvement. This could even be innocently covering for him because they don't believe he could've possibly been involved in wrong-doing but know that him claiming amnesia would not look good unless they cover for him.

I'm just having trouble figuring out a reason where amnesia would be considered a good idea for a cover story, let alone base for a defense, when you have 2 other people who are going to alibi you anyway.
 
akh said:
This really doesn't work unless he played the amnesia card before the others volunteered to create an alibi for him (thus leaving him stuck to his story). The reason to create an amnesia story is to allow for some type of insanity defense. But you totally cancel that out with 2 people then claiming to see her after you've last had contact.

IOW, if 3 people are sitting around trying to concoct a cover story it seems odd to use amnesia for one when the others are going to cover for you anyway. I'd think the more plausible thought would be to go ahead and claim to remember until you handoff your cover story to the next person in the story.

So answering my own questions here... One possibility would be CR creating the amnesia story in order to negate being a source of info and getting caught in a lie and just leaving 2 people needing to keep a cover story straight. But IMHO that leaves CR looking more guilty and would keep the spotlight brighter on him.

Another answer could be CR doing something before reaching his apartment, claiming blackout/amnesia and no idea where LS is, and MB and JR simply covering for him with no other involvement. This could even be innocently covering for him because they don't believe he could've possibly been involved in wrong-doing but know that him claiming amnesia would not look good unless they cover for him.

I'm just having trouble figuring out a reason where amnesia would be considered a good idea for a cover story, let alone base for a defense, when you have 2 other people who are going to alibi you anyway.
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there just wasn't a lot of time to create a decent story and cover their tracks yet here we are almost two years later. they had maybe twelve hours to work with but likely would have thought she'd be reported missing much earlier, so i'd guess they'd have given themselves maybe three or four hours to do something with her and get their stories straight. to me, the amnesia defense is cr going "crap we're going to get caught and i'm going to have cops asking me a million questions. i'll create an amnesia story so i don't get tripped up." i don't know whether he'd have even mentioned that to the others. just let them figure out their own stories. i respect your opinion but don't see how having two other guys say they'd cover for him would make the amnesia story any worse of an idea? he was seen by a lot of people that night with ls and if he had something to do with her disappearance he knew everyone would be pointing fingers at him. the amnesia story gets him out of getting tripped up by any other story he might create, all he has to do is say "so sorry i don't remember". i could be totally wrong but i think he'd have done a lot worse by making up a story that would easily be found to be false.

playing devil's advocate, the flip side is "amnesia" = "i blacked out drunk" and maybe he really doesn't remember a lot of the night. i certainly had nights in college where a few hours were totally blank.
 
CR's attorney states that CR had amnesia from being punched in the face. He does not remember anything after that point. We also know from video that LS was in no condition to help him home. So, if he can't remember anything after being punched, how did he get home? How could he remember what route to take? How could he remember which building he lived in?
 
The amnesia story is an outright lie. You only get amnesia from a punch to the face in the movies. To me this lie clearly tells us he is hiding something. IMO he planned to take advantage of her that night and she had a medical emergency in the process.
 
masootz said:
there just wasn't a lot of time to create a decent story and cover their tracks yet here we are almost two years later. they had maybe twelve hours to work with but likely would have thought she'd be reported missing much earlier, so i'd guess they'd have given themselves maybe three or four hours to do something with her and get their stories straight. to me, the amnesia defense is cr going "crap we're going to get caught and i'm going to have cops asking me a million questions. i'll create an amnesia story so i don't get tripped up." i don't know whether he'd have even mentioned that to the others. just let them figure out their own stories. i respect your opinion but don't see how having two other guys say they'd cover for him would make the amnesia story any worse of an idea? he was seen by a lot of people that night with ls and if he had something to do with her disappearance he knew everyone would be pointing fingers at him. the amnesia story gets him out of getting tripped up by any other story he might create, all he has to do is say "so sorry i don't remember". i could be totally wrong but i think he'd have done a lot worse by making up a story that would easily be found to be false.

playing devil's advocate, the flip side is "amnesia" = "i blacked out drunk" and maybe he really doesn't remember a lot of the night. i certainly had nights in college where a few hours were totally blank.
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The problem with the amnesia story is down the line and I was making the assumption he would be thinking down the line. It doesn't make sense to create an amnesia story from the POV of using it as the basis for an insanity defense (if caught) because the other two are negating it's value. ..Unless you think the other two were just covering for a friend no matter what and willing to take the fall with him.

I suppose he could always argue he was out of his mind due to drugs and/or injury and let the others fend for themselves on why they would help him in the commission of a crime or involve themselves in it after the fact lying about an alibi.

I'd think if they created a story for the night and then one veered off it that would worry somebody enough to cut a deal for themself.

Of course all of this is trying to put logic into a situation that might've had very little logic involved.

Still, if you're creating a story that involves two other people alibiing you, and even then one of them ending up putting himself as the last one known to see her, I would think you'd simply want something that made you seem less guilty than amnesia would. "Got home with her, room started spinning, got sick, passed out... roommate helped me to bed. Don't know what happened past that point except what I was told later". Then MB picks up the story. Then JR picks up the story. All that would probably put him in a slightly better light than 'amnesia' would I'd think. And I'd think THEY would think that too.

Then again... maybe the actual story being told officially is more like that and we're just hearing a filtered version?
 
One of these guys or gals is going to break at some point. They don't think they will now but life changes you. As you get older you become less ego centered and more compassionate for the well being of others. Unless they are all sociopaths someone will talk, guaranteed.
 
akh said:
The problem with the amnesia story is down the line and I was making the assumption he would be thinking down the line. It doesn't make sense to create an amnesia story from the POV of using it as the basis for an insanity defense (if caught) because the other two are negating it's value. ..Unless you think the other two were just covering for a friend no matter what and willing to take the fall with him.

I suppose he could always argue he was out of his mind due to drugs and/or injury and let the others fend for themselves on why they would help him in the commission of a crime or involve themselves in it after the fact lying about an alibi.

I'd think if they created a story for the night and then one veered off it that would worry somebody enough to cut a deal for themself.

Of course all of this is trying to put logic into a situation that might've had very little logic involved.

Still, if you're creating a story that involves two other people alibiing you, and even then one of them ending up putting himself as the last one known to see her, I would think you'd simply want something that made you seem less guilty than amnesia would. "Got home with her, room started spinning, got sick, passed out... roommate helped me to bed. Don't know what happened past that point except what I was told later". Then MB picks up the story. Then JR picks up the story. All that would probably put him in a slightly better light than 'amnesia' would I'd think. And I'd think THEY would think that too.

Then again... maybe the actual story being told officially is more like that and we're just hearing a filtered version?
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I doubt CR ever used the word Amniesia to LE or his attorney. He probably said something like, I cant remember anything after leaving kilroys. I was sick and vomitted as soon as we got to my apt. , then I passed out. Its probable that he wasnt involved with a decision to dispose "their problem"
 
Snapfade said:
Ive always had hard time believing that more than one was involed until Now. You connect some important dots for me , with the call to JR and two fingers pointing back at him. Allow me to elaborate on your theory a step further.

They have plan to get rid of body but they dont know where LS cell is. JR has DR number and tries to contact him. They dont need phone to follow thru with plan but it sure would be nice to know who shes been communicating with and what about. My guess is they would get rid of cell in different location than LS... If the 2nd call was, to a passed out CR , they were looking for her cell phone.... Sorry about getting so speculative on your theory that seems so probable.
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Thinking is good!! You are right, unless one of them had something to do with her phone they would not know where it was. This explains also why her phone was not called...

Also, remember that JR made a point that LS had her keycard and her fake ID. He knew what was in her possession and what was not. Very observant.
 
Do we have any indication that the named POIs are being monitored, ongoing, by Bloom LE, other LE, or hired PIs?
 
akh said:
The problem with the amnesia story is down the line and I was making the assumption he would be thinking down the line. It doesn't make sense to create an amnesia story from the POV of using it as the basis for an insanity defense (if caught) because the other two are negating it's value. ..Unless you think the other two were just covering for a friend no matter what and willing to take the fall with him.

I suppose he could always argue he was out of his mind due to drugs and/or injury and let the others fend for themselves on why they would help him in the commission of a crime or involve themselves in it after the fact lying about an alibi.

I'd think if they created a story for the night and then one veered off it that would worry somebody enough to cut a deal for themself.

Of course all of this is trying to put logic into a situation that might've had very little logic involved.

Still, if you're creating a story that involves two other people alibiing you, and even then one of them ending up putting himself as the last one known to see her, I would think you'd simply want something that made you seem less guilty than amnesia would. "Got home with her, room started spinning, got sick, passed out... roommate helped me to bed. Don't know what happened past that point except what I was told later". Then MB picks up the story. Then JR picks up the story. All that would probably put him in a slightly better light than 'amnesia' would I'd think. And I'd think THEY would think that too.

Then again... maybe the actual story being told officially is more like that and we're just hearing a filtered version?
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really good points. i see what you're saying. in the scenario where these guys are involved (still on the fence about the whole thing personally):

i approach it from the mindset that i'm one of the involved guys, it's 4:00am, i'm drunk or high, tired, and we've got a body or really bad situation. either i caused the situation myself and subsequently solicited the help of the other two, or all three of us were involved enough that all three of us have to deal with it.

1) if it wasn't my fault, drunk or not, i call the cops. if i'm one of the other two and i had nothing to do with it, i call the cops or at the very least get out of there asap. i worry about pointing fingers if someone comes asking questions.

2) if i had something to do with it (took advantage of her, slipped her drugs, didn't help her out when i knew she was in bad shape) i'm still calling the cops and a lawyer and my parents unless i really really had something to do with it.

3) the only time i start thinking about disposing of a body is if i really really did something horrendous (assault causing death, straight up murder, some sexual weirdness that's undeniable). put yourself in that situation - drunk or not, at what point does it seem like a better solution to hide a body than to deal with the cops, especially when you know your parents are able to lawyer up quickly? these guys aren't part of the corleone family, they're yuppy college students. body disposal is serious business.

so it's 4:00am and you're trying to hide a body knowing that you've got two hours or so until dawn (when people start hitting the streets), you're tired, coming down off your drunk/high. you could give the task to someone else (drive the body 100 miles away) who wouldn't be missed (houseguest, friend) or you do the best you can to get it away from you. that would involve throwing it somewhere and playing dumb when it's found. i don't see any other options. i don't see a case where these guys suddenly become mob movie hitmen and dispose of the body on an uncle's farm and get back in time to not be missed.

whatever you do, you do it quickly and come up with a story. any story that involves a lie of that magnitude is going to contain as much truth as possible. why lie more than you have to, especially since you don't know who else saw her that night? alternately you feign amnesia so anything anybody asks you about the night is unanswerable. point being, the other two guys are likely less involved or they'd be the ones with amnesia. they're taking the bet, at 4:00am while trying to figure this situation out, that whatever involvement they have isn't bad enough that they need to lie too much. they just need to fudge where they were, what they were doing, figuring no one can prove otherwise. the dude with amnesia, he knows he can't start saying anything about anything because he was high/drunk and can't remember who saw what or who could call him out on a lie and "amnesia" gets him out of explaining any of it.
 
Ros said:
I found it interesting that CR's memory loss started 15 minutes before he was hit at Smallwood, which is consistent with either a concussion or an alcohol-induced blackout:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/09/corey-rossman-last-man-to_n_873992.html

Also, do we know if he ever sought medical advice regarding his injuries, memory loss etc?
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I'm not defending CR and don't like how he and his lawyer have handled things. However, it's possible that a combo of drugs/alcohol and the hit at SW affected how things went down that night.

While LS was obviously in bad shape, we don't know how together CR was in the alley, either. LE said at one point that they "made their way," which could mean a number of things.

I wonder if he could have dropped her or left her somewhere en route if transporting (carrying? dragging?) her became difficult. He might not be eager to admit to that, especially if it directly contributed to her demise. I don't recall reading that he sought medical advice. I think it would do a lot for his case if he had done so.
 
Ros said:
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/07/17/news.qp-5830818.sto
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Ive experienced the amnesia where you can't remember anything for maybe an hour or two before the hit on the head, yet you remember everything after the hit. Which is scary enough, but then the 'before the event' memory blank really starts to eat at you for not remembering....
It really confused me for weeks into months, as I experienced flashbacks from before the event, which I knew was my subconscious screaming for attention.

Eventually, the whole 'before' and 'after' memory started to form into one and I did get a good bit of the crucial ten minutes leading up to me being hit.
The guy who attacked me was the son of a neighbour. The neighbour was a registered alcoholic who had been in and out of prison. The son had a drink and drunk problem too and attacked me on one of his 'highs' as I came home from an evening spent with friends. I was putting the key up to my front door, when he punched my head against the concrete of the door surround, knocking me unconscious and taking my house/car keys and handbag.

That piece really helped me understand why my memory acted the way it did.
 
I am sorry. I am a medical professional, and I am telling you it is extremely rare for a person to suffer from amnesia after a punch to the face. The types of injuries the Neurosurgeon is describing are from severe blows to the head(ie. Motor vehicle accidents). He is a specialist after all and therefore would only be involved in severe head trauma cases. This kid does not have amnesia unless he was severely beaten in which case his face would have been busted up. I have seen dozens of kids CR`s age suffer concussions and memory loss is very rare. I have seen hundreds of kids that age get punched in the face and concussions are rare from a single punch. So do the math. Also, was it reported that CR was at a pharmacy at 7:30am? If so, Does that not raise anyone's hinky meter? What was he doing up at 7:30 after that type of night?
 
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