IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

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I was wondering if SJHD was maybe their supplier? They had to get the drugs from someone.

So, if he caused her disappearance, what happened? Just theorizing here...

Assuming the POIs' stories are true, and the last time she was seen was rounding the corner to go home, was SJHD waiting to grab her after she left 5N?

(Actually, I've wondered if JW could have done that. If the POIs are telling the truth. JW knew she was out with other guys, so maybe he was following/stalking her.)

Anyway I would think that if SJHD was also at 5N, and the other POIs know that HE caused LS's demise, the other POIs wouldn't have any problem ratting him out. Especially if he wasn't really a friend of theirs. He doesn't seem to fit the mold of the typical people they would hang out with - affluent families, etc. Why wouldn't the other POIs just all agree to blame him. "He gave LS bad drugs. We told her not to take them and that he was bad news." Three against one, whether that's really the way it went down or not.

I'm not putting too much emphasis on his shirt. My teenage SILs pick up shirts from random colleges at Goodwill and wear them.

I guess I still go back to the main POIs. They couldn't get their stories straight at first and how big of a jerk is a guy (JR) who doesn't walk a shoeless, phoneless, bruised, drunk girl home?

I agree about the shirt ... I thought Goodwill after the fact. Like you, I don't see him being in their friend group. Maybe a smalll-time supplier who they'd call on for help if things went south? Totally speculative, but being local he might know where to hide a body.

At this point, I still envision the POIs involved on some level, which probably doesn't fit his MO.

And I agree about JR. I've heard of a girl in my town who gave her cell phone to a guy who was walking home late at night without one. (My daughter called her the next day and got him.) Just saying.
 
I really appreciate the serious mastication that is going on with every word of every known statement and fact. Every so often I have to take a break from this case and come back with fresh eyes. It just won't leave me alone, however.

This detail about the ID as noted by JR, is similar to his overall very detailed observations that night. Its one of those things that has always raised red flags for me about JR's story. So many people readily want to chalk these people up as being so intoxicated that they were not functional. But clearly in JR's case, the excruciating details, his "walk test", the phone calls are all very richly contrasted against the simple effort of walking LS home 2 blocks away. walking her home could have easily been accomplished perhaps 5 times within the supposed time interval of his astute observations and requests.

Today the phrase "rounding the corner" got me thinking again... why this detail? Why not just saw her walking down 11th? For one thing... if he didn't watch her all the way to the corner it would seem like he wasn't all that caring. But no, he had to watch her all they way to the corner...hmm. Again if he was that concerned, why not just walk her the 2 blocks home! So, why else have her "round the corner"? That is the point where he lets himself off the hook. He throws the possibilities of what happened to her out into the abyss. The implication is stranger abduction. And so no matter how unreasonable and unlikely that is, the challenge is to prove out this lie. (and points well taken that this lie may have also been extended in the form of crafted PR being expressed through unwitting or knowing mouthpieces)

Every one of JR's detailed observations seems so well thought out. It has the earmarks of craftsmanship.

About the second call. If the second call was to HT, even if she knew about that, she certainly would have reason to NOT bring that to light.
It is reasonable that if JR told HT about the call to DR, he would also have mentioned the call to HT as well. But if the second call was not to HT, then it is very curious why JR would not tell HT and/or if he did, why HT would not reveal it. This second call is definitely a loose thread.

Also I think in another recent post by bx about JR going out of his way to make it clear that he alone saw all of this. He's not only protecting CR/MB but his guests as well. Extremely curious.

About The Spierer's... I do think that intuition from CS is very important.
She does have a sense of what went down. And that sense seems to be rather consistent with the mass of analysis going here. Looking at this situation from so many different angles, scenarios, crunching all known data, it keeps coming down to the curious 3:30 phone call from MB to JR and what really happened during the next hour.

My intuition points to an accidental death, botched response from those present, and ensuing cover up. But it's also plausible that ill intent was also a factor and is compelling as a reason for the cover up. Even as unlikely as it would seem to have several people maintain a conspiracy, my gut tells me that it's more likely that at least 2 and perhaps as many as 5 people know what happened or were involved in the crucial 3:30 to 4:30 time frame. JR took responsibility as being the last to see her for various reasons. But it's just too convenient and too well crafted.
MB had to know that LS was in very bad shape if even alive, in stark contrast to all statements attributed to him. This is a big red flag the size of China. MB had this hot potato fall in his lap and he was happy to toss it to storyteller JR. JR turned it into french fries. With is magic wand, JR, gets CR/MB, his guests, and himself all off the hook.

Pretty sure this is the first time i'm quoting myself. Wanted to extend these thoughts into the discussion about where Lauren might be.

It seems less likely that CR would be charged with the responsibility of disposal because of his condition, yet it is possible. And possible that he did so alone. However, it seems very likely that she would be not very far away from 5N if it were solely in CR's hands.

On the other hand, if craftsman JR were to be involved, then more careful thinking would have gone into it. She could then be farther away and/or more carefully hidden. Unfortunately, I think he was involved either directly or indirectly in deciding what to do with her. This past weekend I dug some holes to move some large shrubs. The soil in my area is similar to that in the roughly 30-60 minute radius from Bloomington. I dug deeper than i needed, so I could put a thick layer of peat in before dropping the root ball into the hole. I was amazed at how fast i was able to dig so deep. The shrubs weighed about 75 lbs each because of the heavy root balls with soil attached. So what popped into my mind was how long would it take to dig a grave, maybe just a bit deeper, haul a 95lb body into it and then fill it.
Amazingly I was able to dig 2 holes almost 4 feet in diameter and over 3 feet deep in 20 minutes, carrying and dropping 2 75 lb shrubs and then doing the fill in about another 10 minutes. I carried the shrubs about a total of 150 feet between the 2 of them. I figured that on an adrenaline rush such a feat could have been done faster and carrying a slighly heavy person quite a bit farther, maybe 200 or 300 feet - just acting alone. Now on top of this, I'm not in any great shape right now. So, realistically, one person in very average condition could have carried her at least 300 feet and dug a 4ft deep grave and filled it in within 30 minutes. More likely, something like 15 minutes. With 2 people, I'd say maybe even 10 minutes if they had the right tools or one was very fit. Connecting the 4:15 calls as some sort of signal that this disposal task had been completed, could mean something like a 30 minute radius from 5N. If you figure speeds averaging 40 to 60 mph, that would be something like a ring inside of a 10 to 30 mile radius. A huge area, and includes some massive parks.
More likely something like a couple hundred feet off from roads familiar to those who did the work. Familiarity would be a key clue. If I knew all of the POI's and JR's guests, I would investigate their habits, their phone records and look for hot zones within this geographic ring. Then would have search teams comb around these geographic zones. Without a shovel, the grave would be crude and shallow or body concealed in a sewer, well, hole, cave, mine, mausoleum (only if very low risk of getting caught). But with shovel(s) the placement possibilities becomes much wider. Where would they get shovels at that hour? (another risk, being seen, someone would notice a shovel missing, etc...) Anyone buying shovels at Walmart in a hurry at 4:00am? probably would have them on camera... so maybe someone that camps and keeps a fold up shovel in their vehicle? A lot of military and ex Military people carry such a shovel too. Any of JR's friends stand out as the outdoorsman? Or Military or both? There was lots of construction in the immediate area of 5 N. If someone just dumped the body out in the woods and tried to cover it with rocks, branches and leaves, by now it would be scattered bones partially visible on the ground surface due to animals. If she was buried well... the grave would be difficult to detect and pretty much just bones remaining. Finding Lauren seems to me to be a longshot since I think some thought went into it. JR is someone that crosses his T's and dots his i's.
 
The fire in Martinsville on route 37 shortly after her disappearance never sat well with me. The owners son operates a tree removal landscaping business in and around Bloomington. who is to say a local doesn't frequent down town Bloomington ona Thursday night in the summer. Just an idea I'm tossing out again.
 
On the other hand, if craftsman JR were to be involved, then more careful thinking would have gone into it. She could then be farther away and/or more carefully hidden.

More likely something like a couple hundred feet off from roads familiar to those who did the work. Familiarity would be a key clue. If I knew all of the POI's and JR's guests,
If she was buried well... the grave would be difficult to detect and pretty much just bones remaining. Finding Lauren seems to me to be a longshot since I think some thought went into it. JR is someone that crosses his T's and dots his i's.


I've posted previously about how the most likely scenario for JR is that he raced LS back to Michigan in his SUV that same day and she's there. Lakes galore around where JR is from.
 
Regarding the possibility that it was someone tangentially related to the POIs, e.g., JR's supplier.

That was raised early on and maybe does make some sense in as much as LS seemed raring to go that night and not everyone else was as up for the party. Possibly she and CR returned to JR's to re-up and JR was tapped out, so he arranged for his guy to meet up with LS to resupply her...

Problem there is that JR is unlikely to cover up for this 3rd party dealer...why on Earth would he? And there'd likely be a record of communication btw JR and the relevant 3rd party, unless JR was working off a disposable cell or something.

Still think the LS OD'd theory and CR/MB/JR combined to cover it up is the odds-on favorite.

With JR leading the charge due to his role in suppling LS and others.
 
The fire in Martinsville on route 37 shortly after her disappearance never sat well with me. The owners son operates a tree removal landscaping business in and around Bloomington. who is to say a local doesn't frequent down town Bloomington ona Thursday night in the summer. Just an idea I'm tossing out again.

The other thing about Martinsville ... It was the site of an LE search after a search and rescue dog indicated interest, per this link: http://www.theindychannel.com/news/fresh-leads-send-spierer-search-to-martinsville

Nothing was found, though. Also ... wasn't Martinsville where a cell phone related to the case supposedly pinged? I've never seen anything that definitively supports that, though.

Referencing Veritas' comment about digging/burying/etc., I wonder what was actually destroyed in the fire. ??? Also, note next comment re: Bradford Woods.
 
... Familiarity would be a key clue. If I knew all of the POI's and JR's guests, I would investigate their habits, their phone records and look for hot zones within this geographic ring. Then would have search teams comb around these geographic zones. Without a shovel, the grave would be crude and shallow or body concealed in a sewer, well, hole, cave, mine, mausoleum (only if very low risk of getting caught). But with shovel(s) the placement possibilities becomes much wider. Where would they get shovels at that hour? (another risk, being seen, someone would notice a shovel missing, etc...) Anyone buying shovels at Walmart in a hurry at 4:00am? probably would have them on camera... so maybe someone that camps and keeps a fold up shovel in their vehicle? A lot of military and ex Military people carry such a shovel too. Any of JR's friends stand out as the outdoorsman? Or Military or both? There was lots of construction in the immediate area of 5 N. If someone just dumped the body out in the woods and tried to cover it with rocks, branches and leaves, by now it would be scattered bones partially visible on the ground surface due to animals. If she was buried well... the grave would be difficult to detect and pretty much just bones remaining. Finding Lauren seems to me to be a longshot since I think some thought went into it. JR is someone that crosses his T's and dots his i's.

Snipped by me. This reminded me of something I'd looked into months ago. IU has a facility near Martinsville (surprise to me) called Bradford Woods. It's connected to the School of Health, which has a recreation and sport management major ... DR's major. Here's the link:

http://www.bradwoods.org/

Re: the rest of your post: This is a ridiculous example, but I have a new dog who is a digger. My previous dog played in the same yard for five years and brought in nothing. This girl finds anything and everything that was buried shallowly ... things that aren't ours, LOL. No bones, thankfully, though I think she's digging for moles.

Anyhow, I believe that time and nature helped bury these items (a partial towel, a small broken garden sculpture, a plastic flower container). That wouldn't have happened in this case ... but it might help keep something buried. I feel that a shovel would have been detected by LE, as well as dirt in a car, etc. But perhaps the shovel was also buried. ???
 
I have my doubts that she was buried. Where would the POIs get a shovel (and risk being seen on security cameras at a shopping center).

I believe that she is in an area much like Katelyn Markham. Probably down a country road a few miles off of a main highway. Probably somewhere that's <30 minutes to/from Bloomington. (I doubt JR would have driven her to Michigan. It would take too long for him to get there and back.)

There are so many secluded woods/ravines/etc in that area that a body could be there for years without anyone finding it. (again like Katelyn) I know it was June when LS disappeared, but wooded areas always have leaves covering the ground. All the POIs had to do was brush some out of the way and then cover her up with them.

I think it was this forum where I read that one of the POIs had belonged to a frat, and that one of the frat's hazing methods was to drive guys out to the middle of nowhere and drop them off to fend for themselves and find their way back to campus. So, they might know secluded, out-of-the-way areas well.

Were dogs ever allowed to sniff the POIs' cars?
 
... I believe that she is in an area much like Katelyn Markham. Probably down a country road a few miles off of a main highway. Probably somewhere that's <30 minutes to/from Bloomington. (I doubt JR would have driven her to Michigan. It would take too long for him to get there and back.)

Were dogs ever allowed to sniff the POIs' cars?

Snipped by me. The other problem with Michigan (and I repeat what someone once told me) is that it would be too clearly JR (or DB) if she was found.

I do think, however, that a body of water might be a possibility, as it would approximate MI, if that makes any sense.

I do believe the POIs cars were searched, though there was something about JR's car being in the shop, I believe. To clarify, not that I believe that, per se, but I believe I read that.

PS: I agree about the shovel ... unless someone with a landscaping or other local connection (home, etc.) was somehow involved at some point.
 
Problem there is that JR is unlikely to cover up for this 3rd party dealer...why on Earth would he? And there'd likely be a record of communication btw JR and the relevant 3rd party, unless JR was working off a disposable cell or something.<snipped>, bbm

I agree. I'm sure if JR could in any way point to someone else as a suspect, he would.

After thinking about it a bit more, the only possible scenario I could imagine where SJHD could be involved would be if JR was telling the truth, and if LS happened to run into him in the very small window of time that she was walking down the street. I doubt both of these things. Plus, after reading a little about him, my impression is that around this time he was already a major *advertiser censored**-up who had a difficult time maintaining any kind of friendship, and didn't appear to have had a car. So, I find it hard to imagine a scenario where he would be connected to this group in any way. Still, the recent attack on the bike path is concerning, and I hope he is locked up somewhere.

@Kimbella, reading about Katelyn Markham I had the exact same thought. There's just so many places to search... I really believe Lauren will be found though.

I know CR's car was searched, but I don't think any other info was given, or AFAIK, any confirmation about other cars. Since JR hightailed it out of town, I think its unlikely his car was searched.

ETA: JR (allegedly) told people very early on that he didn't have access to a car (I think this rumor started with "ray"). This has never been verified though, and he obviously had a car a short time later to drive home.
 
... @Kimbella, reading about Katelyn Markham I had the exact same thought. There's just so many places to search... I really believe Lauren will be found though.

I have a rather disturbing question, but I think about it whenever I step over a manhole cover. Does anyone know if the manhole system was searched? The amount of construction going on in Bloomington that summer comes up again and again. That doesn't really involve manholes, except perhaps there were some obscured by construction or construction traffic.

The reason I ask this is that while I can imagine a car being involved ... and have read the possible scenarios for that, including DB ... I also question why LE didn't find any evidence of that. Even including DB ... he's come up so much on-line; he must have come up IRL, too.

Also, I agree about SJHD. Helping the POIs doesn't seem to fit his MO. The only thought I have is that if LS did indeed leave JR's, maybe she got turned around and wandered off the wrong way. I still don't comprehend how JR would have let her leave in the first place, however ...
 
Hey y'all. My dad passed away earlier this month so I've been away for several weeks. Looks like I've missed quite a bit. Anything of major significance? Has there been a id latest remains that were found?
 
I have a rather disturbing question, but I think about it whenever I step over a manhole cover. Does anyone know if the manhole system was searched? The amount of construction going on in Bloomington that summer comes up again and again. That doesn't really involve manholes, except perhaps there were some obscured by construction or construction traffic.

The reason I ask this is that while I can imagine a car being involved ... and have read the possible scenarios for that, including DB ... I also question why LE didn't find any evidence of that. Even including DB ... he's come up so much on-line; he must have come up IRL, too.

Also, I agree about SJHD. Helping the POIs doesn't seem to fit his MO. The only thought I have is that if LS did indeed leave JR's, maybe she got turned around and wandered off the wrong way. I still don't comprehend how JR would have let her leave in the first place, however ...

VV first mentioned manholes then I did, it seems interesting that you mention them too! I do hope they have been checked! I could see how they could easily be overlooked because most don't think about them (except us three, yikes, what does that say about us?! Good things I hope!)

But, not to be disturbing either, would an odor emanate, if a body had been placed in a manhole? Is it possible to put a body in one and move it to to a place further down the system where an odor would not be noticeable? I've looked in one as a child and have seen that they have steps for access but don't know much else. Any experts in the field or has someone more daring than me ventured down one?

Thoughts?

Let's bring Lauren home!
 
Hey y'all. My dad passed away earlier this month so I've been away for several weeks. Looks like I've missed quite a bit. Anything of major significance? Has there been a id latest remains that were found?

Seeing - so sorry for the loss of your dad, may your memories of him hold you tight.
 
VV first mentioned manholes then I did, it seems interesting that you mention them too! I do hope they have been checked! I could see how they could easily be overlooked because most don't think about them (except us three, yikes, what does that say about us?! Good things I hope!)

But, not to be disturbing either, would an odor emanate, if a body had been placed in a manhole? Is it possible to put a body in one and move it to to a place further down the system where an odor would not be noticeable? I've looked in one as a child and have seen that they have steps for access but don't know much else. Any experts in the field or has someone more daring than me ventured down one?

Thoughts?

Let's bring Lauren home!

I suspect I saw your and Veritas' posts at some point, which triggered the thought. Hopefully all it says is that all possible final resting places need to be considered, no matter how unpleasant!

IDK about an odor ... or how far down a body would go if dumped in a manhole. I'm imaging that small animals may end up in the system, which could do the same thing.

Two days before LS disappeared, a teenage girl named Carly Lewis went missing in Traverse City, MI. She was found two weeks later buried under a pile of sand behind the town's Public Works Dept. She was actually killed in another spot ... in an abandoned shed where the boy who killed her was sleeping. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/06/report_traverse_city_man_confe.html

It surprised me how this boy killed CL in one spot and move her at night to another spot ... and that she was found when he confessed vs. discovered by searchers, etc. It just makes me wonder ...
 
... I'mKeyLime, when you watch the remote viewer when he does Lauren's case, you might change your mind about the POIs. Although the person he describes as slumping in the front seat could be one of the POIs. Or one of their flunkies like ZO.

Wow, lots of crazy stuff going on, that's for sure.

At the very least, I feel some POIs acted selfishly and recklessly that night. I realize that alone doesn't make their actions criminal. But ... had CR left her at SW instead of wanting her to himself (his words, "She's with me"), had MB helped her home instead of making her JR's problem, or had JR himself taken her home (or even to a health center, since he'd noted a bruise that she couldn't describe the source of), perhaps we wouldn't be debating what happened to LS. Perhaps. That's assuming that she did indeed leave on her own two feet, which there isn't any verifiable evidence of.

I agree that what you describe about a person slumping in the front seat is interesting, as is someone (i.e., LS) wrapped in a moving blanket. To me, that would suggest someone who maybe rented a moving truck (which would come with a moving blanket, I'm guessing) to take their stuff off campus, which would be consistent with the timing. I'll try to find the video you describe!

PS: Reflecting on JR: If a friend came to my house with a bruise that he or she couldn't recall getting, I'd be concerned. Maybe it was all part of the night for JR, but I honestly don't see how he went from her thinking an i-pod was a phone and not knowing how she got a bruise to him thinking she could walk home alone. That makes no sense to me at all.
 
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