IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[bx2]

No where in JR's motion does it say he made phone calls to mutual friends trying to get Lauren a ride home, but in MB's:

snipped.

Beth and Spierer then went to Rosenbaum's residence. (Complaint, ¶ 31). Rosenbaum attempted to contact mutual friends to pick up Spierer and return her to her apartment. (Complaint, ¶ 32).

 

[Jupiter812]

That was interesting reading their responses. I question whether both MB and JR made calls to mutual friends or if one or the other is piggy backing on the other.

If both of them made separate calls to friends then this tells me that she was, indeed, in very bad shape; in other words, she couldn't walk on her own.

 

[Ixchel13]

That was interesting reading their responses. I question whether both MB and JR made calls to mutual friends or if one or the other is piggy backing on the other.

If both of them made separate calls to friends then this tells me that she was, indeed, in very bad shape; in other words, she couldn't walk on her own.

so if MB made calls/texts, and JR made calls/texts, and supposedly Lauren made 2 calls/texts, that means several people knew Lauren was "stranded".
yet we haven't heard from a single one of them.. ...hard to believe the POIs would lie about something easily disproven.

LE acknowledges 2 of the calls made by JR/Lauren. Or at least the calls supposedly by Lauren to DR and a guy she had been watching the game with earlier at SW. LE talked about 2 phone calls, in that "2 phone calls were made," but they have never said," only 2 calls were made."
Saying the last time Lauren used her phone was at SW before leaving with DR
does not say her phone wasn't used or called after that.

LE knows who was called because MSM reported that all 3 of the 5N POIs gave their cell phones up for examination. So, at a certain time after Lauren arrived with MB to JR's, these calls/texts would be on record. Either MB came home to find Lauren dead and CR passed out or extremely upset (making MB think burglars were there), or, he really did take Lauren over to JR's.

Got to say Jacobite is right about cell phone records holding the key to the
mystery if it is possible to get them all. I'm trying to remember the exact spot but I think it's across the street from SW, a giant AT and T Tower and complex.

 

[AbbeyR]

That was interesting reading their responses. I question whether both MB and JR made calls to mutual friends or if one or the other is piggy backing on the other.

If both of them made separate calls to friends then this tells me that she was, indeed, in very bad shape; in other words, she couldn't walk on her own.

I know, this is confusing. MB's document is quoting the Spierers' complaint, but attributes the phone calls to him, not JR.

Original:

Beth and Spierer then went to Rosenbaum's residence. (Complaint, ¶ 31). Rosenbaum attempted to contact mutual friends to pick up Spierer and return her to her apartment. (Complaint, ¶ 32).

MB response:

Complaint Spierer requested to return to her apartment but Beth escorted her instead to Rosenbaum’s residence. (Complaint ¶ 31). Beth then expressed“concern about Spierer’s well-being and safety” and he “attempted to contact mutual friends to pick up Spierer and take her back to
her apartment.” (Complaint ¶ 32).

(Why can't MB tell a consistent story?) Either way, I agree, it makes no sense for MB to 'escort' Lauren to JR's and for them to call friends to come get her if she could walk home.

 

[AbbeyR]

From the first article:

"Three former Indiana University students accused of negligence in the presumed death of Lauren Spierer say her family’s lawsuit against them fails to prove one critical point – that she’s dead.

“'Under Indiana common law, a person who has been missing for less than seven years is presumed to be alive,' Dane Mize, lawyer for defendant Corey Rossman, wrote Thursday in a motion to dismiss the lawsuit."

Can I just say that this annoys the h*ll out of me? GRRRRR. I really hope there's some way around this!

I was just thinking about the Molly Dattilo case that we talked about here recently. I think her family won a wrongful death case against the POI when Molly had been missing less than 7 years..? I don't know the details though.

I did find it interesting that MB's counsel seemed to be pointing the finger at JR:

"'The Spierers’ lawsuit,' Garrison adds, 'fails to provide any reason why Beth should have foreseen Spierer’s disappearance. Further, Beth took Spierer to Rosenbaum’s residence and left her with Rosenbaum. It was Rosenbaum who allowed Spierer to leave his residence unescorted.'”

So basically MB is trying to get himself off the hook here by making her JR's problem once again. Thoughts?

Same old -- they are all passing the buck. And now they appear to have a whole fleet of (new) lawyers to help them.

Wouldn't it be easier just to take an LE poly if you didn't do anything wrong?

 

[Ros]

Links to the lawsuit docs:



In Defendants: Spierer's parents can't prove Lauren's dead
Attorneys say suit should be thrown out

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/defendent-spierers-parents-cant-prove-laurens-dead

It seems to me that the lawsuit in the Molly Dattilo case could have set a precedent for being able to file a wrongful death suit more than two year (but less than seven) after someone disappears. Molly disappeared in 2004 and the lawsuit was filed in 2007. In 2008 the case was changed from "missing" to "homicide." I don't know if the reasons for doing so were released. The Dattilo family accused the Sheltons of causing battery to Molly. I don't know what evidence they had. The Sheltons did not respond and the Dattilo family won by default. It would be interesting to read the court records. Would they be online somewhere?

http://www.legalnews.com/detroit/795643
http://madisoncourier.com/print.asp?ArticleID=59795&SectionID=178&SubSectionID=963
http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/108669429.html

 

[AbbeyR]

It seems to me that the lawsuit in the Molly Dattilo case could have set a precedent for being able to file a wrongful death suit more than two year (but less than seven) after someone disappears....

Thanks Ros, I was hoping you would chime in about this. I couldn't find very much about this case online (so far) but I'd like to read more about it.

That's interesting that the wrongful death suit was filed before the case was switched to a homicide - that was one of my questions.

ETA: Maybe this is the reason it was switched to a homicide:

Keri Dattilo, Molly's cousin, said Tuesday that the Marion County Sheriff's Department investigator in the case told the family Oct. 30 that the Marion County prosecutor's office wants to talk to Molly's relatives about offering immunity from prosecution to John Shelton in return for his telling where Molly's remains are located. The family had been told a year ago that he has said he knows where Molly's remains are, she said.

Ugh, it's so infuriating that no one was ever charged in this case and that she was never found. How can people be so cruel?

Molly's thread here at WS: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10134&highlight=dattilo

 

[imkeylime]

I know, this is confusing. MB's document is quoting the Spierers' complaint, but attributes the phone calls to him, not JR....

(Why can't MB tell a consistent story?) Either way, I agree, it makes no sense for MB to 'escort' Lauren to JR's and for them to call friends to come get her if she could walk home.

RSBM. (For some reason, MB's and the original comments wouldn't show up, but I'm referring to the "he 'attempted to contact mutual friends ...'")

Sigh. Maybe it's just a bad case of the infamous indefinite pronoun ... "he" could be himself OR JR. I'm so glad I was a stickler for correct pronoun usage. None of my students would have made such a mistake (or got themselves in such a mess, hopefully).

 

[imkeylime]

... Suppose Lauren did leave, and then someone who was called by JR found her, and then an overdose ensued.

If the last calls for help with Lauren from JR's apt were texts, then no need for return text. See, we have been told there were CALLS made and no ANSWER.

If someone had Lauren's phone, they possibly received a text to the phone from Lauren or JR saying Lauren needs her phone and a ride home. Since everything occurred within a few blocks that night, suppose this person with Lauren's phone heads up towards JR's and encounters Lauren.

From that point, anything could have happened. But, if something bad happened, that person could not be caught with Lauren's phone, or as being the last person to see Lauren, as it stands at that point, it would be JR,
not him....

Just because the employee at Kilroy's found the phone the next day does not mean it stayed there all night. ...

Sorry it took me so long to respond ... I needed to think on this.

I see your point about the texts vs. calls. I've always assumed they were actual calls or we would have been given different wording. When CS says LS last used her phone at SW, that, I believe, could be texting or calling (probably texting, since it's what young people mostly do). OTOH, when calls are connected with JR, that makes sense to me, since people might have been sleeping by that point and wouldn't have seen a text. A call makes more sense under those circumstances. JMO.

Re: LS' cellphone. IMO, she just forgot her cell at Sports vs. something nefarious happened to it. But there was a point where I speculated about another girl taking or moving it ... or even CR. That, IMO, would be to keep LS from being able to use it. As further information about her condition that night came out, I more or less concluded that, IMO, she just lost her cell. Even under normal circumstances, my daughter has misplaced her cell. And LS wasn't having a normal night. JMO.

Part of my problem with thinking that LS could have left JR's on foot is that he claims he let her leave alone. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but it bothers me that a friend would have let a friend do that, based on the circumstances. Even if she wasn't still highly intoxicated, she had a bruise on her face that she didn't know the source of. And JR allegedly saw that bruise. That would have been another warning sign, IMO, that all was not right.

I could buy that someone came and met her, and then she took a turn for the worse ... but why wouldn't JR just walk her home, since SW is so close? Maybe it will come out that he had "company" he didn't want to leave or was himself throwing up or out of it. But until something like that has been confirmed, I'm skeptical of his story. Regardless, I'm willing to continue to look at all options. I think it's smart to do that, actually.

 

[Dixie811]

Without proof of death, the state of Indiana will not declare Lauren dead until she has been missing for seven years.

The time limit for the Spierer's to file a civil suit for wrongful death was 2 years after her disappearance.

I just find that really interesting. Seven years seems like a long time to make a family wait to have their loved one declared deceased in a situation where a body is not found, but it all signs point to the individual no longer living.

I think the "you can't prove she's dead" defense by the POI's is predictable, though not very believable. Even those who believe the POI's (that she really did walk away from 5N) must admit she is likely deceased.

I worry a lot that even WHEN (not if; I insist on being optimistic) Lauren is found, evidence will not be preserved well enough to pursue a criminal case even then. I am sure that bringing Lauren home and laying her to rest is what matters most to the Spierer's, but I so want ANSWERS for them and JUSTICE for Lauren.

 

[imkeylime]

Without proof of death, the state of Indiana will not declare Lauren dead until she has been missing for seven years.

The time limit for the Spierer's to file a civil suit for wrongful death was 2 years after her disappearance.

I just find that really interesting. Seven years seems like a long time to make a family wait to have their loved one declared deceased in a situation where a body is not found, but it all signs point to the individual no longer living.

I think the "you can't prove she's dead" defense by the POI's is predictable, though not very believable. Even those who believe the POI's (that she really did walk away from 5N) must admit she is likely deceased.

I worry a lot that even WHEN (not if; I insist on being optimistic) Lauren is found, evidence will not be preserved well enough to pursue a criminal case even then. I am sure that bringing Lauren home and laying her to rest is what matters most to the Spierer's, but I so want ANSWERS for them and JUSTICE for Lauren.

What infuriates me most about the "you can't prove she's dead" defense is that it's all the Spierers want at this point: to know. Of course they'd prefer she be alive. That's what we all want. But given the circumstances, they just want, make it need, closure. The silence is so loud.

 

[Ashley426]

Anyway - Am I the only person who thinks this theory, especially the last part of it, doesn't sound that far fetched at all? It would explain why no one has found even the slightest trace of her since the night she disappeared. Just my opinion...

Obviously I find it very possible, haha. I'm starting to believe it more and more for some reason.

 

[Ashley426]

The amount of construction going on in Bloomington that summer has always freaked me out. I ended up visiting JR's MI stomping grounds that summer (I grew up north of there), and there was tons of construction going on. I don't think LS ended up there, but it gave me an idea of how hard it would be to search through such a mess. So I definitely wouldn't rule it out.

OTOH, those who are local also speak of deep forests not so very far away from Bloomington and how a body could be well hidden there as well. Additionally, there are old caverns, I believe. All that adds up to lots of places that may not have been well searched, IMO.

I agree. The construction has stuck out to me since we first learned about it. I hate thinking about that scenario but it'd make sense as to why there's been absolutely no trace or clues of her. It infuriates me! >:O

And yes, the forests are pretty dense in areas. Lake Monroe is ridiculously big. The only forests I've been to multiple times around there are Morgan-Monroe and Brown County and those two open up soooo many spaces for a body to possibly be. The thing that I remember most from Morgan-Monroe State Forest was how scary and dark it was.

 

[Jupiter812]

RSBM. (For some reason, MB's and the original comments wouldn't show up, but I'm referring to the "he 'attempted to contact mutual friends ...'")

Sigh. Maybe it's just a bad case of the infamous indefinite pronoun ... "he" could be himself OR JR. I'm so glad I was a stickler for correct pronoun usage. None of my students would have made such a mistake (or got themselves in such a mess, hopefully).

One would hope a law office would be a stickler for correct usage too! But alas, my personal experience has proven otherwise.

 

[deca]

If Lauren had been buried in the construction of the nearby buildings, wouldn't the dogs have been able to scent the body? I thought dogs could pick up the scent through water, cement, underground, etc.?

 

[Jupiter812]

I was just thinking about the Molly Dattilo case that we talked about here recently. I think her family won a wrongful death case against the POI when Molly had been missing less than 7 years..? I don't know the details though.



Same old -- they are all passing the buck. And now they appear to have a whole fleet of (new) lawyers to help them.

Wouldn't it be easier just to take an LE poly if you didn't do anything wrong?

One would think so. Instead, here they are dragging it out for the world to see.

 

[deca]

I don't have any links, sorry. But I have heard in some cases a family is able to declare a loved one dead before the official time. They had to prove that circumstances strongly pointed to the person being deceased and a judge had to rule on it. It did take some time though. I wonder if they are going to try to do that?

 

[mfunky]

One would think so. Instead, here they are dragging it out for the world to see.

....To think all of this could have been avoided if one of the boys had the decency to call 911.....

 

[imkeylime]

....To think all of this could have been avoided if one of the boys had the decency to call 911.....

This makes me wonder how much concern MB expressed about LS' well-being and safety. Was he the passive one of the three (or two, if CR was indeed passed out). Could he have suggested 911 but been shot down for some reason by JR (and/or CR), i.e., was there a reason beyond that JR knew LS better than MB did for him taking her to JR's?

Realistically, it could be that he knew what she drank/did at JR's and suspected that CR was trying to get her more intoxicated for personal reasons. I guess I'm wondering if, ultimately, MB chose to protect JR and CR at that point. I wonder if he's nearing the point where he wants to protect himself. ???

 

[imkeylime]

One would hope a law office would be a stickler for correct usage too! But alas, my personal experience has proven otherwise.

Oh my, I kind of forgot about the attorneys, LOL. But it was the only explanation I could think of.