IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[holly18]

is it sorta seen as common knowledge that lauren overdosed + one of the boys hid her body or do people in the friend group feel incredibly unsure of what happened? how much has anyone truly opened up? i got the sense that it was one of those everyone knows but no one talks about it kind of things.
i wonder if they've all just totally detached or if they feverishly read all the websleuths posts

I have no idea if its public knowledge among the POIs/IU students, but sometimes that seems like the likeliest explanation.
My impression was that none of them (except possibly DR) have truly opened up, at least as far as the spierers are concerned.
I've wondered about whether or not they read websleuths or other blogs, IMO CR seems very smug (just judging from his comments and that video of him right after Lauren disappeared), and by all appearances if the 5N boys are guilty they've more or less gotten away with it. Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if they don't think about Lauren or the case much, which is awful.

 

[Ixchel13]

I have no idea if its public knowledge among the POIs/IU students, but sometimes that seems like the likeliest explanation.
My impression was that none of them (except possibly DR) have truly opened up, at least as far as the spierers are concerned.
I've wondered about whether or not they read websleuths or other blogs, IMO CR seems very smug (just judging from his comments and that video of him right after Lauren disappeared), and by all appearances if the 5N boys are guilty they've more or less gotten away with it. Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if they don't think about Lauren or the case much, which is awful.

IF they did it, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought about it constantly. IF they did it, IMO, they won't get away with it.

 

[holly18]

IF they did it, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought about it constantly. IF they did it, IMO, they won't get away with it.

I hope you're right, on both counts

 

[sammi89]

IF they did it, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought about it constantly. IF they did it, IMO, they won't get away with it.

I think the first part is even more so true now while the lawsuit is ongoing. Even if they didn't do it, I'm sure it is on their minds quite a bit simply because of the lawsuit.

I also hope the second part is true, although if they did do it, I've always wondered why they would come back to school the following fall. I know they no one would want to draw even more skepticism, but still, if involved, that's pretty gutsy. Even if it was one of the other POI, I'm pretty sure they all came back the following fall, including JW.

Did anyone's behavior change in that time period? Did the Spierers try reaching out to JW then when his parents weren't around?

JW made it pretty clear that he blamed the 5N group based on his actions the following days and later that fall when he supposedly had a friend threaten JR if JR didn't leave a party - why? Did he give this explanation to the Spierers at any point?

Why was the landfill searched so much later? Was it mostly because of public pressure, in part fueled by the Spierers? Even if it was fueled by the Spierers, had they found or heard information (via their PI or otherwise) regarding the landfill? How thorough was the search? I've heard it is difficult even when you know a person is there somewhere. How sure are they that even if there were rumors she was put in a dumpster, that they used that particular dumpster (my understanding is that they pinpointed the area of the landfill to search based on the dumpster)?


RE social media: I remember seeing pics awhile ago (but after graduation) of MB with JR and DB, so they appear to be friends still. It also makes me wonder if DB (and possibly any other guests) was friends with MB (and possibly CR?) at the time, does that change the dynamics? Then it's not DB/guests getting involved with strangers, but people they might consider to be friends? I still think that would be pushing it if DB/guests/JR had nothing to do with it, but still, I have a hard time believing DB/guests would agree to anything for people they didn't really know.

 

[leilarose68]

I think the first part is even more so true now while the lawsuit is ongoing. Even if they didn't do it, I'm sure it is on their minds quite a bit simply because of the lawsuit.

I also hope the second part is true, although if they did do it, I've always wondered why they would come back to school the following fall. I know they no one would want to draw even more skepticism, but still, if involved, that's pretty gutsy. Even if it was one of the other POI, I'm pretty sure they all came back the following fall, including JW.

Did anyone's behavior change in that time period? Did the Spierers try reaching out to JW then when his parents weren't around?

JW made it pretty clear that he blamed the 5N group based on his actions the following days and later that fall when he supposedly had a friend threaten JR if JR didn't leave a party - why? Did he give this explanation to the Spierers at any point?

Why was the landfill searched so much later? Was it mostly because of public pressure, in part fueled by the Spierers? Even if it was fueled by the Spierers, had they found or heard information (via their PI or otherwise) regarding the landfill? How thorough was the search? I've heard it is difficult even when you know a person is there somewhere. How sure are they that even if there were rumors she was put in a dumpster, that they used that particular dumpster (my understanding is that they pinpointed the area of the landfill to search based on the dumpster)?


RE social media: I remember seeing pics awhile ago (but after graduation) of MB with JR and DB, so they appear to be friends still. It also makes me wonder if DB (and possibly any other guests) was friends with MB (and possibly CR?) at the time, does that change the dynamics? Then it's not DB/guests getting involved with strangers, but people they might consider to be friends? I still think that would be pushing it if DB/guests/JR had nothing to do with it, but still, I have a hard time believing DB/guests would agree to anything for people they didn't really know.

probably because people in the school don't really blame them. i mean, IU is kind of a party school... people do the drugs that lauren ostensibly did, all the time. they probably just see her death as an unfortunate thing that happened because of her choices + the guys didn't want to go to jail for doing the drugs that tons of people at the school do

 

[AbbeyR]

probably because people in the school don't really blame them. i mean, IU is kind of a party school... people do the drugs that lauren ostensibly did, all the time. they probably just see her death as an unfortunate thing that happened because of her choices + the guys didn't want to go to jail for doing the drugs that tons of people at the school do

So, hypothetically, if she overdosed on drugs that the POI had provided and instead of calling 911, they did nothing, hid her body and then lied to the police and everyone else... that would be an unfortunate thing that happened because of Lauren's choices? I'm sure that's not what you mean... I have seen this kind of thing posted on PT though, and it really bothers me because it seems to minimize that these crimes are serious and heinous -- and the result of the choices made by whoever was responsible for Lauren's disappearance.

 

[sammi89]

probably because people in the school don't really blame them. i mean, IU is kind of a party school... people do the drugs that lauren ostensibly did, all the time. they probably just see her death as an unfortunate thing that happened because of her choices + the guys didn't want to go to jail for doing the drugs that tons of people at the school do

I can't speak about IU specifically, but I graduated a couple years ago from a rather large party school myself (my school has made a few of those top 10 party school lists lol) and I actually learned of LS from my fellow students posting about LS. IDK, I'm not so sure the people I know would be so forgiving about a) not getting help for an OD and/or b) hiding the body after the fact. Those are choices that the POIs would be making, not LS.

 

[leilarose68]

So, hypothetically, if she overdosed on drugs that the POI had provided and instead of calling 911, they did nothing, hid her body and then lied to the police and everyone else... that would be an unfortunate thing that happened because of Lauren's choices? I'm sure that's not what you mean... I have seen this kind of thing posted on PT though, and it really bothers me because it seems to minimize that these crimes are serious and heinous -- and the result of the choices made by whoever was responsible for Lauren's disappearance.

i'm not saying that people wouldn't be upset about that. but i think the reason why the guys weren't totally ostracized is because people don't look at them as the KILLERS... they might think that they have poor morals and judgment for dumping lauren's body but given the circumstances and the drug charges they would have been facing perhaps people might've hated them a bit less.

this is NOT my perspective... i could just see how IU partiers might think this way... like if they were with lauren that night they could have been in the guys' shoes and facing those charges and with a girl who had already OD'd and died before they could do anything.
the fact of the matter is, the spierers pretty much know what happened to lauren. they believe she is gone + it seems that they do probably believe she overdosed. it is the likeliest rumor and the most prevailing one from the beginning + maybe the boys justify dumping the body as the best scenario for them if she died before they could help + that the spierers would hear the rumors and eventually realize that lauren probably OD'd, so they wouldn't be completely in the dark abt what happened to her.

again, this is NOT my opinion. i just think that perhaps some of the students look at it this way + see them as less disgusting because of it? maybe?

 

[kpeacock]

I'm here in Bloomington, and anyone I've heard mention the case seems to believe the OD/hidden body theory, and sees it as tragic but easily believable. Among the college aged students I know the rumor of her body being dumped in a construction site near the apartments (buried in concrete) is prevalent. I personally find that situation hard to fathom - how could that happen without someone seeing something? It seems like the risk of being caught goes up the closer to home you are. And if she is buried in concrete, is there any hope of finding her, without a confession? Sorry to be morbid! But really, that scenario makes me feel almost hopeless that she'll ever be found.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

 

[holly18]

i'm not saying that people wouldn't be upset about that. but i think the reason why the guys weren't totally ostracized is because people don't look at them as the KILLERS... they might think that they have poor morals and judgment for dumping lauren's body but given the circumstances and the drug charges they would have been facing perhaps people might've hated them a bit less.

this is NOT my perspective... i could just see how IU partiers might think this way... like if they were with lauren that night they could have been in the guys' shoes and facing those charges and with a girl who had already OD'd and died before they could do anything.
the fact of the matter is, the spierers pretty much know what happened to lauren. they believe she is gone + it seems that they do probably believe she overdosed. it is the likeliest rumor and the most prevailing one from the beginning + maybe the boys justify dumping the body as the best scenario for them if she died before they could help + that the spierers would hear the rumors and eventually realize that lauren probably OD'd, so they wouldn't be completely in the dark abt what happened to her.

again, this is NOT my opinion. i just think that perhaps some of the students look at it this way + see them as less disgusting because of it? maybe?

I can see a select few people thinking this way, but certainly not the majority. Would you want to hang out with people who are more interested in protecting themselves from minor drug charges than saving a life? I wouldn't, and I don't think most people would. We also don't know how most people at IU felt about them coming back (or at least I don't), their extended group might have welcomed them back while others steered clear of them... Either way, I don't know that most people would think that they 5N boys disposing of her body wasn't a massive deal or worth hating them over.

 

[holly18]

I can't speak about IU specifically, but I graduated a couple years ago from a rather large party school myself (my school has made a few of those top 10 party school lists lol) and I actually learned of LS from my fellow students posting about LS. IDK, I'm not so sure the people I know would be so forgiving about a) not getting help for an OD and/or b) hiding the body after the fact. Those are choices that the POIs would be making, not LS.

Especially since Lauren's family has been so focal about what they're going through. Its not like they're at peace, they're clearly tormented by not knowing for sure what happened to Lauren and not being able to bring her home. Whoever is hiding what happened to Lauren and where she is is causing her family unimaginable pain, IMO that would be hard for most students to ignore (at least I'd like to think so)

 

[Ixchel13]

i'm not saying that people wouldn't be upset about that. but i think the reason why the guys weren't totally ostracized is because people don't look at them as the KILLERS... they might think that they have poor morals and judgment for dumping lauren's body but given the circumstances and the drug charges they would have been facing perhaps people might've hated them a bit less.

this is NOT my perspective... i could just see how IU partiers might think this way... like if they were with lauren that night they could have been in the guys' shoes and facing those charges and with a girl who had already OD'd and died before they could do anything.
the fact of the matter is, the spierers pretty much know what happened to lauren. they believe she is gone + it seems that they do probably believe she overdosed. it is the likeliest rumor and the most prevailing one from the beginning + maybe the boys justify dumping the body as the best scenario for them if she died before they could help + that the spierers would hear the rumors and eventually realize that lauren probably OD'd, so they wouldn't be completely in the dark abt what happened to her.

again, this is NOT my opinion. i just think that perhaps some of the students look at it this way + see them as less disgusting because of it? maybe?

BBM, have you interviewed these students that you think you know how they feel? otherwise, it IS your opinion. .I do have an opinion about drug dealing and partying. If someone deals a drug that someone else dies from, they are a killer. Whether or not someone chooses to buy the drug, and chooses to take the drug, it doesn't matter. It comes with the territory. If it was a case of OD. that is exactly what they're hiding from, not even necessarily the disposal of her body, but the fact that they dealt a fatal dose of drugs to someone, which my friend, is murder, whether it is called involuntary or however it will be legally couched.

 

[Ixchel13]

More on the OD theory. There is no doubt that Lauren was inebriated, and there is talk of snorting a klonopin. So, Lauren was seen on film inebriated.
The OD theory is the most common theory, but mainly because it was
sold to everyone at the beginning lock, stock, and barrel and many of these people have been discredited, i.e., especially TG.
It doesn't have to be an OD. In her condition, with just having hit her head
twice, a push or a shove against a wall could have done her in. And if someone did that, they could also just have easily convinced someone else
that they found her that way. If the person they convinced was the one that sold the drugs, voila, coverup.
Any number of those friends and acquaintances could have delivered that shove or push, she could have come upon any of them if she were struggling home. This is Bloomington we're talking about. Everything happens in a small space, you really can't avoid running into people you know everywhere you go. Parties were breaking up. IMO, someone else got involved at the very end. The simple 5N POIs explanation is the tip of the iceberg of the coverup. Whether anyone meant to harm her or not, she was harmed. I would imagine the jails are filled with people who accidentally harmed someone in the course of doing something illegal.
I have a kid, and I tell him that if he ever gets in this kind of situation, at a party where people are doing hard drugs, to leave immediately, or else it could be construed that he was a part and parcel of whatever happens next,
whether it's a bust or a death.

 

[bessie]

I'm here in Bloomington, and anyone I've heard mention the case seems to believe the OD/hidden body theory, and sees it as tragic but easily believable. Among the college aged students I know the rumor of her body being dumped in a construction site near the apartments (buried in concrete) is prevalent. I personally find that situation hard to fathom - how could that happen without someone seeing something? It seems like the risk of being caught goes up the closer to home you are. And if she is buried in concrete, is there any hope of finding her, without a confession? Sorry to be morbid! But really, that scenario makes me feel almost hopeless that she'll ever be found.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

I loathe the thought, but I have to admit I've always leaned toward that being the most likely scenario. No evidence left behind in a vehicle; no risk of being stopped while driving wiith a deceased person in your car; no alibi needed to explain your whereabouts; and if she were found it would appear to be an accident. LS was under the influence of drugs and alcohol, and she became disoriented, and fell, while walking home. Many times I thought about JR and his balcony. I'll bet he was well aware of how the construction progressed along the street near his apartment. The noise probably drove him crazy at times.

I really hope I'm wrong.

 

[bessie]

I actually reread the rules and I *think* (?) it's okay to discuss POIs public profiles - maybe wishful thinking that there might be a compiled list out there. Even profile pics on blocked accounts can be revealing. Other wishul thinking - that someone out there took screen shots before profiles shut down. I know I've seen a few quotes/pics of AB and JW statuses and tweets from 2011. Some people's boundaries & judgment are so murky in social media (especially cell phone generation kids)- more from DB, JR, etc. would be interesting.

Hi, kpeacock. You can discuss the POI's SM profiles within the guidelines. No copy and paste of posts, and no screenshots. What you can do is paraphrase, or briefly describe a post, and then reference it by the date and time so others can find it. And always include a link. The rule applies to FB, Twitter, instagram, Tumbler, etc, etc, and most blogs. BUT, mods can -- and sometimes will -- at their discretion, nix a topic, or an entire profile all together if it becomes a problem. When talking about social media, that usually means scurrilous rumors, gossip, and drama.

That hasn't been an issue in LS' case, really. Not lately, anyway. But if ever you guys have questions, please shoot me a pm. You can contact any mod or admin, for that matter. In this particular case, though, I'm the point mod, and the one whose most familiar with the particulars since I've followed it so closely from the very beginning. Even though I don't spend a lot of time in here these days, I'm usually around modding somewhere else on the board.

 

[Jacobite]

None of these guys were qualified to determine if a long qt patient was really dead. Even doctors have been mistaken. So, if they did dispose of her, they may have done something far more cruel than any of you have envisioned.

 

[Kadence]

Yes, according to the reports, CR told both people who tried to intervene that he was in control of the situation.

At Smallwood:



Then to the witness on the street:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use?nclick_check=1

I think this part may factor into the 'duty of care' legal arguments. From what I understand, a duty of care can be created if one 1) puts someone else in a risky or harmful situation (for ex, gets them severely intoxicated) and/or 2) takes responsibility for their care

So for example, if you see an injured person in the street, you normally have no responsibility to stop and help them, even if you could save their life. But if you begin to help them, or for example, take them home with you, you can't just walk away or leave them out of reach of getting help.

IMHO, I agree with your duty of care explanation, as I see it, he told two different people he was "in charge" of Lauren's care, he took responsibility for her care. CR did not complete his duty of care as Lauren is missing. I don't know for sure how the others factor in but, to me, I find it hard to believe the amnesia thing, everything that was observed/heard/said following the punching incident just doesn't lend itself to amnesia. Didn't CR claim that his attorney didn't have that right or do I have amnesia?!

 

[leilarose68]

I can see a select few people thinking this way, but certainly not the majority. Would you want to hang out with people who are more interested in protecting themselves from minor drug charges than saving a life? I wouldn't, and I don't think most people would. We also don't know how most people at IU felt about them coming back (or at least I don't), their extended group might have welcomed them back while others steered clear of them... Either way, I don't know that most people would think that they 5N boys disposing of her body wasn't a massive deal or worth hating them over.

well i doubt their extended group heard an official version of what happened. but maybe it's a 'don't ask, don't tell' kind of thing. my friend went to one of those huge party schools + it was such a superficial scene and certain circles of people only cared about people as far as they could help them party. idk. all of these people involved, even fringe people like HT creep me out

 

[leilarose68]

None of these guys were qualified to determine if a long qt patient was really dead. Even doctors have been mistaken. So, if they did dispose of her, they may have done something far more cruel than any of you have envisioned.

interesting. can a long qt patient have all of the signs of death but more of a chance of being revived than someone without the defect?

 

[AbbeyR]

IMHO, I agree with your duty of care explanation, as I see it, he told two different people he was "in charge" of Lauren's care, he took responsibility for her care. CR did not complete his duty of care as Lauren is missing. I don't know for sure how the others factor in but, to me, I find it hard to believe the amnesia thing, everything that was observed/heard/said following the punching incident just doesn't lend itself to amnesia. Didn't CR claim that his attorney didn't have that right or do I have amnesia?!

Haha, no, you don't have amnesia:

Rossman also seemed to distance himself from his lawyer Carl Salzmann's statement that he had no memory of his final moments with Spierer.

"I never said that," Rossman said. "You're taking statements that were said by my lawyer. I never said I did or didn't."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...g-indiana-student-parents-harassment/2356267/

leaving his options open, while saying nothing, IMO...