IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

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interesting. can a long qt patient have all of the signs of death but more of a chance of being revived than someone without the defect?

One of the very few facts known and solid about this case is that Lauren had Long QT syndrome. Fainting is the number one symptom of Long QT. This is also possible. It's called prolonged syncope. http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/28/us/dead-man-comes-back-life/
The CNN story is from today. There was another one last summer.

I really hope these so called friends did not dispose of her body.
 
I'm here in Bloomington, and anyone I've heard mention the case seems to believe the OD/hidden body theory, and sees it as tragic but easily believable. Among the college aged students I know the rumor of her body being dumped in a construction site near the apartments (buried in concrete) is prevalent. I personally find that situation hard to fathom - how could that happen without someone seeing something? It seems like the risk of being caught goes up the closer to home you are. And if she is buried in concrete, is there any hope of finding her, without a confession? Sorry to be morbid! But really, that scenario makes me feel almost hopeless that she'll ever be found.

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That really gave me the chills. I'm not sure which I find to be worse: dumping her in garbage or burying her in concrete. Ugh. It seems plausible. The construction around 5N has been pointed out many times and I'm sure the 5N POIs knew about it, as well as other POIs and even strangers.

If the OD theory is true OR if the POIs even thought it was an OD and were wrong, it could be that they dumped her thinking she would be found before she was buried and hoped people would think that LS accidentally died there on her way home.

If that rumor is so prevalent though, is there a reason LE didn't go in and start breaking up the concrete? I have no idea about costs relating to that, but it seems like it would be easier to pinpoint where concrete was being poured at the time than finding her in a landfill, which they actually did search. I could be totally wrong though.

Does anyone know how well the construction areas were searched?
 
That really gave me the chills. I'm not sure which I find to be worse: dumping her in garbage or burying her in concrete. Ugh. It seems plausible. The construction around 5N has been pointed out many times and I'm sure the 5N POIs knew about it, as well as other POIs and even strangers.

If the OD theory is true OR if the POIs even thought it was an OD and were wrong, it could be that they dumped her thinking she would be found before she was buried and hoped people would think that LS accidentally died there on her way home.

If that rumor is so prevalent though, is there a reason LE didn't go in and start breaking up the concrete? I have no idea about costs relating to that, but it seems like it would be easier to pinpoint where concrete was being poured at the time than finding her in a landfill, which they actually did search. I could be totally wrong though.

Does anyone know how well the construction areas were searched?

I hate the idea too, but not sure I buy into the theory. It's just the one I've heard repeatedly, but not from "credible" sources, from "townies"/students. If you read this thread on WWTT today, there's discussion about concrete being unlikely (rebar in concrete, etc.) I hope this is true, because other than some fancy technology to detect a body in concrete (is that possible outside of TV land?), I can't see LE here busting up new construction concrete, especially if it's "under" a building.

(ETA: can't link to exact thread re: concrete but here's the page link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/203764669685648/

Thread started by LaTasha L. Mezo yesterday, 2/28/14.)

As for why the Btown police do or don't do things we'd personally do, want or expect, there's the the theory that they were involved (chickjustin), as well as something of a reputation for corruption going way back. Could also be ineffective leadership/skills. IU brings the big money to town, these kids come from the class of families who supply it. Out of state tuition from wealthy East Coast old money. Bloomington/IU have a lot to lose from a soiled reputation. A large scale cocaine drug bust within the student population from these families = bad publicity, and bad for business.

Again, all theories based on speculation, but an indication of how people talk/think here, which may be helpful in criminal profiling.
 
If I had any belief that there was truth to CR's amnesia, it disappeared as soon as he made that statement.

"I never said I did or didn't" .... how old are you, five? Quit talking in circles.

The childish actions of the 'men' in this case never cease to amaze me.

I read this article as CR distancing himself from the lawyer speaking for him. This seems to point toward the lawyer coaching the story, and CR realizing there may be proof (text messages, maybe?) that he remembered the fight and discussed it afterward that could come out later. IMO, the way gossip flies, especially in a college dorm situation, it's pretty much impossible that CR didn't know who punched him for days. It had to be a huge topic of discussion that night/the next morning, not only between the POIs, but between anyone who heard/witnessed the fight in the SW hallway. Willing to bet the civil trial will focus on this.
 
That really gave me the chills. I'm not sure which I find to be worse: dumping her in garbage or burying her in concrete. Ugh. It seems plausible. The construction around 5N has been pointed out many times and I'm sure the 5N POIs knew about it, as well as other POIs and even strangers.

If the OD theory is true OR if the POIs even thought it was an OD and were wrong, it could be that they dumped her thinking she would be found before she was buried and hoped people would think that LS accidentally died there on her way home.

If that rumor is so prevalent though, is there a reason LE didn't go in and start breaking up the concrete? I have no idea about costs relating to that, but it seems like it would be easier to pinpoint where concrete was being poured at the time than finding her in a landfill, which they actually did search. I could be totally wrong though.

Does anyone know how well the construction areas were searched?

IDK how well the construction sites were searched, but I'm interested in the thought that there was more than one construction site ... I remember Jupiter saying how much construction was going on in Bloomington at the time.

I've always been interested in the concrete theory, partially because that's also a theory about Jimmy Hoffa, whose body was searched for up the road from where I grew up in MI. How crazy is that? Anyhow, it appears that drilling can be done and soil extracted. I know little about this, but here's a link, re: Jimmy.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/26/us/michigan-jimmy-hoffa-search/

One thing that bothers me as much as the construction sites and the landfill is the waste system and manhole covers. I hate even suggesting it, but she was so small. I once almost fell in a manhole on my son's campus ... the cover had been left off! I doubt I would have gone far (am much bigger than LS), but it scared me.

It really saddens me that we have to have to consider these things.
 
Haha, no, you don't have amnesia:

Rossman also seemed to distance himself from his lawyer Carl Salzmann's statement that he had no memory of his final moments with Spierer.

"I never said that," Rossman said. "You're taking statements that were said by my lawyer. I never said I did or didn't."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...g-indiana-student-parents-harassment/2356267/

leaving his options open, while saying nothing, IMO...

pff_zpsb1e78760.gif


Mitnik: "Did you hear your attorney, Mr Baez, in the criminal case tell the jury that the whole thing about the babysitter was made up?"

Mason:
"Objection! Irrelevant! Scandalous..." "She's not responsible for anything Mr. Baez said.
Casey Anthony Bankruptcy/Zenaida Gonzalez depo, 01/23/2014
pp. 8-9


I said it. That doesn't mean that these were my words whatsoever.
CA, p. 71 of same

My personal favorite:

I don't even know to this day what I meant by what I said.
CA, p. 28

k4fw_zpsb8b9032b.gif


Casey Anthony Bankruptch/Zenaida Gonzalez depostion transcript, jany 23, 2014
 
I read this article as CR distancing himself from the lawyer speaking for him. This seems to point toward the lawyer coaching the story, and CR realizing there may be proof (text messages, maybe?) that he remembered the fight and discussed it afterward that could come out later. IMO, the way gossip flies, especially in a college dorm situation, it's pretty much impossible that CR didn't know who punched him for days. It had to be a huge topic of discussion that night/the next morning, not only between the POIs, but between anyone who heard/witnessed the fight in the SW hallway. Willing to bet the civil trial will focus on this.


I am fairly certain that affirmatively encouraging a client to outright lie about his memory would violate an attorney's professional and ethical duties and could get him or her into serious trouble with the bar. Of course, an attorney can always risk it anyway though.

Personally, I seriously question whether CR misled and/or lied to his attorney about his memory initially. I don't doubt that an attorney would frame things favorably and/or perhaps stay silent on less favorable stuff (ex: amnesia vs blackout), but I am skeptical that if CR told him he remembered anything, his attorney would turn around and say CR had amnesia. It's not extremely believable and his attorney wouldn't know if what he did remember would actually be helpful if charges were eventually brought against CR.

I'm sure there is more out there on coaching clients, but these were some of the first I saw after Google searching.

http://www.americanbar.org/newsletter/publications/youraba/201206article06.html

http://www.lacba.org/showpage.cfm?pageid=436

http://philosophynow.org/issues/79/Truth_and_the_Clients_Interest


I know there are plenty of negative opinions on attorneys, but I don't think coaching to that degree is the norm. It would be one thing if CR's attorney had told him to be quiet about less favorable information, but it's quite another to actually state something the attorney knows to be false. It seems much more plausible to me that the attorney was mislead and/or lied to about CR's memory given CR's more recent statements (maybe I do, but maybe I don't! type of statements). If it was a misstatement on the part of his attorney, why didn't the attorney clarify that way back then? However, if CR lied to his attorney during confidential discussions with his attorney, I don't think the attorney would be able to say anything publicly in his defense because of duties like the duty of confidentiality.

Also, CR's attorney was a former prosecutor for several years, so idk, I have trouble believing he would be an advocate of putting out information he actually knew to be false. I know nothing of his attorney's actual reputation or tactics though.
 
IDK how well the construction sites were searched, but I'm interested in the thought that there was more than one construction site ... I remember Jupiter saying how much construction was going on in Bloomington at the time.

I've always been interested in the concrete theory, partially because that's also a theory about Jimmy Hoffa, whose body was searched for up the road from where I grew up in MI. How crazy is that? Anyhow, it appears that drilling can be done and soil extracted. I know little about this, but here's a link, re: Jimmy.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/26/us/michigan-jimmy-hoffa-search/

One thing that bothers me as much as the construction sites and the landfill is the waste system and manhole covers. I hate even suggesting it, but she was so small. I once almost fell in a manhole on my son's campus ... the cover had been left off! I doubt I would have gone far (am much bigger than LS), but it scared me.

It really saddens me that we have to have to consider these things.

I've attached some of BTown's photos that show construction. Anyone who hasn't seen the Photo thread should take a look. BTown assembled an excellent photo tour for us.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140294"]IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]



1. Construction (Continued) at the North East corner of 11th & College Ave.
2. Looking across the street (11th St.) at the construction.
3. Moving farther East toward College Ave. This is the last house on the block.
4. Facing East toward College Ave. walking in front of 5 North.
5. Standing beside the blue house on the West side of College Ave. Looking directly South toward 10th & College from the corner of 11th & College Ave.
 

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I've attached some of BTown's photos that show construction. Anyone who hasn't seen the Photo thread should take a look. BTown assembled an excellent photo tour for us.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



1. Construction (Continued) at the North East corner of 11th & College Ave.
2. Looking across the street (11th St.) at the construction.
3. Moving farther East toward College Ave. This is the last house on the block.
4. Facing East toward College Ave. walking in front of 5 North.
5. Standing beside the blue house on the West side of College Ave. Looking directly South toward 10th & College from the corner of 11th & College Ave.

I have always wondered about the dump truck in #5. Was this there when LS went missing? The truck looks like it is full of leaves or dirt. Either way if it was being filled and hauled away, it would be easy to put her there. Who would think to look in it prior to dumping it?
 
I have always wondered about the dump truck in #5. Was this there when LS went missing? The truck looks like it is full of leaves or dirt. Either way if it was being filled and hauled away, it would be easy to put her there. Who would think to look in it prior to dumping it?
The photos were posted on June 14, and BTown had taken them the same day or the day before, so I'm going to say probably not. But you're right. That truck, or another one, filled with debris could have been in the area at the time. So that goes back to the landfill search. Would the construction debris have been in the area that was isolated?
Police expect to take at least two weeks to sort through a 170,000 cubic foot section of garbage that has been identified as a possible location of trash transported there from Bloomington.

"While working with the company that operates the landfill, Republic Services, waste that was taken from the city on and around the dates of Spierer's disappearance was identified at the landfill site," police said. "That location within the landfill has remained isolated and secured since that time with no additional waste placed in the identified area."
http://crime.about.com/b/2011/08/17/lauren-spierer-search-leads-to-landfill.htm
Police said Friday that about 20-30 searchers are working 12-hour days, allowing the crews to comb about 500 to 600 tons of trash per day.
Police have said landfill managers isolated the trash that came from the area where Spierer was last seen and no additional trash had been allowed near that site in the landfill.
The searchers spread out that trash and go through it carefully, police said.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...Lauren-Spierer-Landfill-Search-128103548.html
 

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I've attached some of BTown's photos that show construction. Anyone who hasn't seen the Photo thread should take a look. BTown assembled an excellent photo tour for us.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



1. Construction (Continued) at the North East corner of 11th & College Ave.
2. Looking across the street (11th St.) at the construction.
3. Moving farther East toward College Ave. This is the last house on the block.
4. Facing East toward College Ave. walking in front of 5 North.
5. Standing beside the blue house on the West side of College Ave. Looking directly South toward 10th & College from the corner of 11th & College Ave.

Thank you both, this definitely helps put it all in perspective. I second Doubting Thomas about #5 ... and also wonder about the black thing (???) in #3. It's not the dumpster ... is it some type of storage unit or camper stop (back side of 5N, from gravel lot)? I just don't know what I'm seeing ...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140294"]IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

PS: Also, could a body LS' size be concealed in plastic tubing as seen in #5?
 
I am fairly certain that affirmatively encouraging a client to outright lie about his memory would violate an attorney's professional and ethical duties and could get him or her into serious trouble with the bar. Of course, an attorney can always risk it anyway though.

Personally, I seriously question whether CR misled and/or lied to his attorney about his memory initially. I don't doubt that an attorney would frame things favorably and/or perhaps stay silent on less favorable stuff (ex: amnesia vs blackout), but I am skeptical that if CR told him he remembered anything, his attorney would turn around and say CR had amnesia. It's not extremely believable and his attorney wouldn't know if what he did remember would actually be helpful if charges were eventually brought against CR.

I'm sure there is more out there on coaching clients, but these were some of the first I saw after Google searching.

http://www.americanbar.org/newsletter/publications/youraba/201206article06.html

http://www.lacba.org/showpage.cfm?pageid=436

http://philosophynow.org/issues/79/Truth_and_the_Clients_Interest


I know there are plenty of negative opinions on attorneys, but I don't think coaching to that degree is the norm. It would be one thing if CR's attorney had told him to be quiet about less favorable information, but it's quite another to actually state something the attorney knows to be false. It seems much more plausible to me that the attorney was mislead and/or lied to about CR's memory given CR's more recent statements (maybe I do, but maybe I don't! type of statements). If it was a misstatement on the part of his attorney, why didn't the attorney clarify that way back then? However, if CR lied to his attorney during confidential discussions with his attorney, I don't think the attorney would be able to say anything publicly in his defense because of duties like the duty of confidentiality.

Also, CR's attorney was a former prosecutor for several years, so idk, I have trouble believing he would be an advocate of putting out information he actually knew to be false. I know nothing of his attorney's actual reputation or tactics though.

I totally agree with all of this, but additionally, I find it hard to believe that CR's attorney would be the one to come up with amnesia, just because they're running a big risk that CR slips up. IE if the attorney told him to play the amnesia thing and CR then mentioned to someone "hey remember when xyz" and it happened to be from that night, they'd be screwed.

Amnesia is a really convenient story in this case, but only if CR never slips up. IMO thats a huge risk for a lawyer to take, unless CR is the one who first said he couldn't remember anything. That being said, the lawyer might have translated "I don't remember anything that happened" to "I have amnesia", JMO
 
An atty wouldn't 'tell' him to claim amnesia. An atty might stop him in the middle of the story an mention that a punch could cause memory loss and that it could be advantageous if that happened in this case... Thus not actually telling him to lie but certainly implying it would be advantageous if his story did involve memory loss....

I suspect 'amnesia' was simply the public spin the attorney put on 'drunken black out' in the story he was told more than he coached his client to lie or led him down a path to lying.

CR might think amnesia sounds more fishy than just saying he was passed out from drinking/drugs. In the college scene I suspect most college kids could relate with that more than 'amnesia'.
 
An atty wouldn't 'tell' him to claim amnesia. An atty might stop him in the middle of the story an mention that a punch could cause memory loss and that it could be advantageous if that happened in this case... Thus not actually telling him to lie but certainly implying it would be advantageous if his story did involve memory loss....

I suspect 'amnesia' was simply the public spin the attorney put on 'drunken black out' in the story he was told more than he coached his client to lie or led him down a path to lying.

CR might think amnesia sounds more fishy than just saying he was passed out from drinking/drugs. In the college scene I suspect most college kids could relate with that more than 'amnesia'.

What story would CR be telling his attorney for his attorney to come up with that suggestion? CR supposedly didn't remember the 15 minutes leading up to the altercation or the actual altercation.

Regardless, even if he was interrupted, it still seems like an odd suggestion if his attorney was interrupting mid-story and suggesting memory loss. The attorney wouldn't know the remaining story that might be useful for his client's case and technically the statements claim CR doesn't remember the 15 minutes prior.... I'm not sure how the attorney would suggest CR might have memory loss for parts of the story CR would have already told him before the attorney realized his client had been punched, if that makes sense!
 
I wonder if there's something that happened 15 min prior to CR being punched that CRs attny doesn't want to be known ... which could be why his attny made the qualifying statement that CR doesn't remember anything 15 min prior to the punch. Could it be a way for CR to avoid having to tell something that looks really bad?
 
What story would CR be telling his attorney for his attorney to come up with that suggestion? CR supposedly didn't remember the 15 minutes leading up to the altercation or the actual altercation.

Regardless, even if he was interrupted, it still seems like an odd suggestion if his attorney was interrupting mid-story and suggesting memory loss. The attorney wouldn't know the remaining story that might be useful for his client's case and technically the statements claim CR doesn't remember the 15 minutes prior.... I'm not sure how the attorney would suggest CR might have memory loss for parts of the story CR would have already told him before the attorney realized his client had been punched, if that makes sense!

IMO, what Akh is suggesting makes sense. And that is what attorneys do, not bashing them, at all, but interrupting before a client goes too far in a story to interject or coach them is very, very typical.

To answer the question of what he might have been relating, well we just can't know that. But, IMO, he could have been trying to relate the story, and maybe even trying to pull one over on his attorney, for example, by faltering and saying the details are fuzzy when the atty then suggests that he doesn't really remember anything, and then, from there, together they pinpoint the last thing he remembers clearly, probably being at Kilroys.

In his favor is the video of the altercation, and IMO, the amnesia claim might be why LE won't let anyone see the video. In it, CR is being knocked to the ground by a sucker punch to the head from ZO. Any atty worth their salt is going to see the amnesia claim as CRs ticket out of trouble, maybe even for
his actions after the altercation!

But, then we have CR not pressing charges. He knows the amnesia is a slippery slope because the others might try to blame him for something he doesn't remember. It's a waiting game for him to see who gets blamed for what in the end, and how much he remembers. But that punch is his defense.

What is LE keeping from us about the altercation, and what does CRs atty
not want him to reveal about it? It doesn't have to be something he did. Maybe the atty doesn't want to tip off anyone who was there. Perhaps CR
was saying something like, all he remembers is so and so saying this and that,
and this one was there and that one was there, etc.

There's other variables, for example the security at Smallwood. Did they break up the altercation? If not, why not? For a place that touts to the parents what great security they have, you'd think with their banks of cameras and video monitors, a whole room dedicated to it, they would have interrupted it, and
determined that Lauren was PI, and either made sure she stayed in or threaten to call LE. Also, they allowed someone (ZO) who was banned from the property to be there, and cause irreparable harm.
Both the owners of Smallwood and owner of 10th and C are long-time upstanding (lol) citizens of this town. With clout. Yet the owners of Smallwood would not be bothered to turn over their surveillance video, they had to break down the doors with a battering ram and seize the video footage of the altercation. Was their security compromised during the altercation? Are we really to believe they didn't view the altercation before not allowing LE to have it willingly? Most security systems like their can be viewed remotely. And lots of BTown business owners can sit at home and watch their employees. So it is likely, IMO, that the Smallwood owners knew what was on that video before LE viewed it. If what was o.n that video proved negligent on their part, they could lose
everything

What security is supposed to do, and what they actually do, might be at play here. Whether or not it's "cool" to turn a blind eye and let these underaged kids be PI at Smallwood is not up for debate. If security was at the altercation,
LE should have been called. Getting a PI could have saved Lauren's life, and kept all these kids from being murder suspects. But wow, that would have given Smallwood (yet another) bad rep.

I don't want to upset fellow WSers by continuing to focus on the altercation,
but something happened during this that certain as yet unknown people don't want us to know. How did the altercation break up? And after, did security allow ZO to stay, or did he get kicked out again?
ZO's roommate BB worked construction somewhere right around there. I mean, people are bringing up construction, and here's someone close to a POI,
living with a POI, who's working construction. Regardless of the Private Is
believing ZO's story, I don't believe he or anyone else has been officially ruled out.
And the fact that CR didn't press charges, leads to a question--were they friends? And had a falling out that night because ZO was jealous, not protective? But then, after what followed, did ZO then help out?
Because no one gets a pass, IMO, until this is settled, it could be any combination of these people, even after she was reported missing.
Several of the POIs are now living near each other, working together, and working down the block from each other, in a state tonly one is from. But not CR. Yet as long as he continues not to remember, they are alibiing him right out of the story. IMO, that is suspicious.
 
IMO, what Akh is suggesting makes sense. And that is what attorneys do, not bashing them, at all, but interrupting before a client goes too far in a story to interject or coach them is very, very typical.

To answer the question of what he might have been relating, well we just can't know that. But, IMO, he could have been trying to relate the story, and maybe even trying to pull one over on his attorney, for example, by faltering and saying the details are fuzzy when the atty then suggests that he doesn't really remember anything, and then, from there, together they pinpoint the last thing he remembers clearly, probably being at Kilroys.

In his favor is the video of the altercation, and IMO, the amnesia claim might be why LE won't let anyone see the video. In it, CR is being knocked to the ground by a sucker punch to the head from ZO. Any atty worth their salt is going to see the amnesia claim as CRs ticket out of trouble, maybe even for
his actions after the altercation!

But, then we have CR not pressing charges. He knows the amnesia is a slippery slope because the others might try to blame him for something he doesn't remember. It's a waiting game for him to see who gets blamed for what in the end, and how much he remembers. But that punch is his defense.

What is LE keeping from us about the altercation, and what does CRs atty
not want him to reveal about it? It doesn't have to be something he did. Maybe the atty doesn't want to tip off anyone who was there. Perhaps CR
was saying something like, all he remembers is so and so saying this and that,
and this one was there and that one was there, etc.

There's other variables, for example the security at Smallwood. Did they break up the altercation? If not, why not? For a place that touts to the parents what great security they have, you'd think with their banks of cameras and video monitors, a whole room dedicated to it, they would have interrupted it, and
determined that Lauren was PI, and either made sure she stayed in or threaten to call LE. Also, they allowed someone (ZO) who was banned from the property to be there, and cause irreparable harm.
Both the owners of Smallwood and owner of 10th and C are long-time upstanding (lol) citizens of this town. With clout. Yet the owners of Smallwood would not be bothered to turn over their surveillance video, they had to break down the doors with a battering ram and seize the video footage of the altercation. Was their security compromised during the altercation? Are we really to believe they didn't view the altercation before not allowing LE to have it willingly? Most security systems like their can be viewed remotely. And lots of BTown business owners can sit at home and watch their employees. So it is likely, IMO, that the Smallwood owners knew what was on that video before LE viewed it. If what was o.n that video proved negligent on their part, they could lose
everything

What security is supposed to do, and what they actually do, might be at play here. Whether or not it's "cool" to turn a blind eye and let these underaged kids be PI at Smallwood is not up for debate. If security was at the altercation,
LE should have been called. Getting a PI could have saved Lauren's life, and kept all these kids from being murder suspects. But wow, that would have given Smallwood (yet another) bad rep.

I don't want to upset fellow WSers by continuing to focus on the altercation,
but something happened during this that certain as yet unknown people don't want us to know. How did the altercation break up? And after, did security allow ZO to stay, or did he get kicked out again?
ZO's roommate BB worked construction somewhere right around there. I mean, people are bringing up construction, and here's someone close to a POI,
living with a POI, who's working construction. Regardless of the Private Is
believing ZO's story, I don't believe he or anyone else has been officially ruled out.
And the fact that CR didn't press charges, leads to a question--were they friends? And had a falling out that night because ZO was jealous, not protective? But then, after what followed, did ZO then help out?
Because no one gets a pass, IMO, until this is settled, it could be any combination of these people, even after she was reported missing.
Several of the POIs are now living near each other, working together, and working down the block from each other, in a state tonly one is from. But not CR. Yet as long as he continues not to remember, they are alibiing him right out of the story. IMO, that is suspicious.


I disagree that attorneys would purposefully interject/coach lies (at least, the non-shady ones wouldn't). In my own experiences, they don't usually interrupt their clients either. However, like any profession, attorneys are full of different personalities/approaches so I'm sure some out there do frequently interrupt their clients and start making suggestions that may or may not work out in their client's favor.

However, CR is saying his attorney misstated what CR told him. Why didn't CR have him clarify things when CR's attorney changed the story from LS helped CR home to LS and CR helped each other home? If the attorney entirely coached him and told him him it would be a great idea to claim amnesia and say he didn't remember anything, why doesn't CR just throw him under the bus and say it was his attorney's idea?

I do think the "amnesia" term and the memory loss is probably from the attorney, but I think it is more plausible that CR said he didn't remember parts of the night and then told the attorney he was punched. It makes more sense (imo) for the attorney to then ask (or even suggest) if his lack of memory for events that night could be attributed to the punch.


I'm not trying to imply the memory loss from before the punch has to be sinister or anything, although that is possible. I just think it is more plausible that CR is the one that said he didn't remember to the attorney first and the attorney thought it would be better to say that he didn't remember the 15 minutes prior because he was punched, rather than blackout. Although now CR is saying he might actually remember and blaming his attorney for misstating what he said, so... But again, why is this being said years later, not at the time it was misstated? Maybe the lawsuit has something to do with it, and that seems to suggest the Spierers are getting closer to what they want: the truth/full story from 5N.

Based on what little is known about the background relationships from ZO & CR, it's difficult to gauge what their relationship was. I agree with you that it seems like they must have had a prior history for things to escalate that quickly.

I haven't considered them being former friends, but that would tie in nicely to discussions that took place a long time ago about AB and his white truck. The biggest issue with ZO coming in to save CR that I can think of off the top of my head is that it would be a real 180 to go from punching someone to hiding a body. Along with that, the more people that know, the harder it is to keep it secret.

I'm also not sure CR can press charges - what charges would he have pressed? Criminal charges would be up to a prosecutor. Maybe he could sue, but I'm not sure how much he could expect to get, especially when you take into account the costs of suing.

I agree that it is odd how some of these people still hang because personally I wouldn't trust any of them. Any one of them could have left solo and grabbed her (if you believe she really left in the first place). Then again, maybe they feel like they endured something only they can understand, idk.
 
I wonder if there's something that happened 15 min prior to CR being punched that CRs attny doesn't want to be known ... which could be why his attny made the qualifying statement that CR doesn't remember anything 15 min prior to the punch. Could it be a way for CR to avoid having to tell something that looks really bad?

It's not clear that his attorney made that decision. It could very well be that CR told his attorney he didn't remember that portion of the night.

Either way, it is probably because a) he doesn't remember because he had a few too many drinks (and is just being a jerk with his more recent statements) or b) CR did something that wouldn't be favorable and doesn't want it to be known, whether it was sinister or not. Possibilities I can think of: buying her drinks, removing her phone/purposefully leaving it/her shoes, anything they may have taken, conversations he might have had that or conversations with LS that may have been overheard, etc. I wouldn't be shocked if he really doesn't remember parts of that portion of the night and just decided to give a blanket "I don't remember" statement so he wouldn't have to commit to a single narrative. All IMO only!
 
Although now CR is saying he might actually remember and blaming his attorney for misstating what he said, so...

I'm not sure that is actually an accurate statement.
 
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