Snipped by me. JR claims that either DR or LS told him that they took klonopin before arriving at 5N. I find it interesting that he chose to share this detail. This is just my conjecture, but I wonder if he thinks that attributing LS' condition to klonopin helps keep attention away from something she took at his place. Just a thought ...
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32
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Snipped by me. JR claims that either DR or LS told him that they took klonopin before arriving at 5N. I find it interesting that he chose to share this detail. This is just my conjecture, but I wonder if he thinks that attributing LS' condition to klonopin helps keep attention away from something she took at his place. Just a thought ...
I think thats pretty plausible, JMO. He probably knew it was going to become clear that she had been in bad shape and wanted to shift the focus (not saying what he said isn't necessarily true, it could be)
I've been wondering about what the spierers and their PI have said in regard to the POIs. IIRC, the PI said that all the boys had spoken to him, except for CR. It also seems (at least to me) that Robert Spierer has made more comments about CR than the others, though that could well be just because he was the last one absolutely known to be with Lauren.
I wonder why CR didn't speak to the PI/why the others did. Is he just receiving different legal advice or is there another reason? (not sure what I'm trying to suggest with that, its just something that stood out to me) I've been thinking that if the 5N boys are culpable, MB would be the weak link. Maybe I'm wrong and for whatever reason the weak link/most likely to talk is CR?
I am really sad to see that outcome - I initially heard about Holly Bobo because of that PI Bill Warner's theories linking LS & HB. I think the family had hope that she might be found alive until the very end - so sad. I'm sure there is not much that will help ease their pain, but they have been in my thoughts and I hope they find peace and closure.
Interesting "I wonder" ... MB has this ever-changing story and JR has a story that seems fabricated in spots (i.e., the phone call). CR, OTOH, gets to say nothing because he has amnesia. And none of the other POIs contest that, either. I, too, wonder why that is. Could it be that CR didn't want to go along with something when all was said and done and made a deal to say nothing if the others would say something? That's the only thing that comes to mind ...
Really interesting thought, imkeylime.
Just to go off of that, from what I understand, JR and/or his lawyers have sat down with the Spierers while CR has refused (although I believe he has also claimed he scheduled a meeting and the Spierers cancelled, but the Spierers said it was CR who cancelled). I've always found it odd that JR would sit down but CR wouldn't, even if it was simply to claim "I don't remember the last portion of the night."
IMO, it seems like he's afraid to. He could be afraid he'll blow his amnesia cover (I don't buy it, although I do think he could have been messed up from alcohol/drugs combined with the hit) or that he'll spill something he shouldn't. It's possible that CR got the ball rolling, MB handed it off to JR, and JR kicked it in a direction CR didn't like. If that was the case, Holly's thought that CR could be the weakest link is interesting. It might also explain why he vacillated on the amnesia statement.
Also, while I don't buy CR's amnesia spiel, if any of MB's story is correct, i.e., CR vomited and crashed, it could put CR at the mercy of the other POIs. They could tell him what they want about the rest of the morning, and he'd more or less have to believe them. Just a thought ...
IA with this. I think the other alternative (though I'm not sure how likely it is) is that CR is somehow the strongest link (ie for whatever reason he has something over JR and MB that makes them play along), but IMO that kind of opens more questions.
For whatever reason, it seems like CR really doesn't want to talk at all. Makes me wonder what will happen when he's deposed for the law suit. Is it because he's going to accidentally slip up, or maybe because he's less committed to the group story than the others? TBH, its crossed my mind that CR blacked out that night, something happened to Lauren once she got back to 5N and MB/JR (and JR's guest(s)?) dealt with it and then at some point gave CR a version of that night that placed the blame entirely on him. They might be protecting themselves while CR thinks they're protecting him. (I'm not sure how much I believe this, but it has crossed my mind)
"I don't recall" is a valid and accepted answer as testimony whether on the stand or seated around a table at a deposition. Even if nobody believes it 100% you can't get inside someone's mind and argue they do recall something when they say they don't. You can argue how can you remember X and not Y and try and discredit the answer but it's not like the proceedings can suddenly make him answer truthfully if he is lying and sticking to it, or remember what he doesn't remember if he's telling the truth.
I'm well aware of how a deposition works, thanks.
This guy hasn't spoken to the PIs or the spierers, my speculation was about how he will react when he is forced to. My point was that if there is a reason he is the one who hasn't spoken (ie he is less on board with something than the others), he might say something he either doesn't mean to, or something that someone else doesn't want him to say.
And no, you can't argue if he says he doesn't remember something, but his lawyer has been pretty specific about the time frame he doesn't remember. If they start asking questions about people's behaviors before and after that night, he can technically say he doesn't recall, but that will certainly raise some red flags in regards to the police investigation
I agree, although IMO, there seems to be anger there too, probably because he considers himself a victim of the situation.
While the vomit is up, I know it's been discussed about whether it actually could have been LS who got sick. According to the NYT, the shed cells in vomit can be tested. Hopefully LE was able to test for DNA, even if it was only to check the story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/science/02qna.html?_r=0
I agree. I'm not going to reargue the point, but his quote in USA Today allows him to say something other than "I don't know" if he so chooses. I am interested in seeing what he will say during a deposition concerning the entire night as well. The parts that he should remember (or rather, he or his lawyer have not claimed amnesia for) could be very telling for the Spierers and/or LE.
SeeingForThe1stTime
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Just a FYI, or FWIW on personal experience with Ketamine. I had totally forgotten about this until I just read the last few posts talking about it, but years ago I witnessed someone on "Special K". Ohhhh Holy!! Why anyone would want to put themselves into that state I'll never understand. Keep in mind that I have no idea as to the dosage amount, whether it was a little or a lot but it was scary. The guy was obviously hallucinating but had severely limited mobility. His level of awareness was such that he couldn't independently identify everyday objects. He couldn't have decerned a peanut butter and jelly sandwich from a basketball or a lawn mower from a grandfather clock. He was sweating profusely, although this is Alabama so....and had huge dilated pupils, he showed zero reaction to external stimulus at all. These effects were fairly short lived, maybe and hour maybe less and then he was totally and I mean totally unconscious. He completely went out like flipping switch on the hood of a car he was sitting on. I got a couple of guys from the party to carry him to his vehicle and put him the reclined drivers seat. (He didn't have his keys, they were lost in the previous stage, and I'm not sure if he EVER found them.) I stayed at this sleazy party just to make sure he was ok. I tried many times over the course of the night to get him to drink water but he was totally comatose. He didn't appear to be in distress, but I certainly wouldn't handle it the same way today. I remember thinking that he would sleep it off and since it was pretty early in the evening when he passed out I thought he would be up kind of early. Noooo. I ended up having to get help moving him again the next day because it was so hot outside I was seriously concerned about the heat killing him. He didn't show the slightest sign of waking up for at least 24 hours. I cringe today thinking about my naiveté. Anyway, the point is this was a very healthy strong young guy but now looking back I suspect that despite my shockingly ignorant perception that because he looked like he was just sleeping that he could've actually been near death at some point(s). Having seen this and because it has just occurred to me that I can't really think of a drug that I haven't witnessed someone on at least once but Ketamine is BY FAR the most frightening, I simply can't imagine that a tiny girl, who had probably already just about reached her non lethal limit of chemicals along with a serious heart condition, could survive a clumsy measured dose of Ketamine. I don't know where the talk of Special K originated (I thought it was Klonopin they allegedly snorted?) but if there is any truth to it, learning that fact would virtually remove 99.9999% of any doubt I may still have that she didn't accidentally overdose on something she didn't take voluntarily. For this to be a fact would virtually remove any ANY possibility of Lauren walking away from JR's on her own. Which I think is a miniscule possibility anyway but one I have to accept as still possible regardless of how unlikely. If Ketamine was involved, I'd feel safe in revising it to totally and completely impossible.
SeeingForThe1stTime
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I said the same thing a while back, my thinking was that a discussion took place and CR is the hold out and in the end it's agreed that he's going to go to bed and let them just do whatever they decide to do BUT he isn't going to lie, be involved or even necessary know what the outcome is and instead he's going to say he just doesn't know/remember and stay out of it, but wont roll on them either. I think it is possible, is it more possible than all of these boys remaining loyal to each other when their own asses are against the wall....maybe but I just can't believe that as soon as MB was off the lawsuit hook but CR was still in a pinch that he wouldn't have called all bets off and spilled his guts. There has to be something because I can't accept that these guys would cover for each other in the absence of guilt. I don't think any one of them would've kept covering for the guilty party knowing the level of scrutiny they've been under and the consequences at stake. Especially after all going their separate ways after graduation. The way I see it is either they are (in their own perceptions) all equally guilty or all equally innocent. If there isn't perfect symmetry there bonding them to each other then there has to be, there MUST be, some other external force acting as an equalizer. But which is it?
(BBM) True. At the same time, it seems like none of the POI have explicitly confirmed or denied each other's stories. In the beginning, it seems like they deliberately left each other out of their own accounts (like the entire part about MB being at JR's and taking Lauren there being omitted from the story). Later, contradictory stories emerged (like MB not being home when CR and Lauren got there, the phone calls, etc.), but it's not clear if this means that one or all of their accounts have changed.
As for CR's 'amnesia' - my feeling is that this is a desperate defense from the person in the most desperate position. Unlike the others, there were outside witnesses, cameras, etc. that told part of the story that made CR look exceptionally bad and that he couldn't deny. Then he painted himself into a corner - resulting in his little hissy fit about 'maybe or maybe not' ever saying he had amnesia.
The POI's lawyers have been in contact with each other since the week Lauren went missing, so IMO, all of the above is deliberate, and an attempt for all of them to never have to commit to a single story. Their attempts to distance themselves from each other makes me suspect that they were actually all involved together in whatever happened. No one got suckered into covering for someone else. No one was put to bed. No one has 'amnesia'. But that's just my feeling, based on their sketchy stories and inability to give a straight answer about simple details and times.
Yes. The quotes from that article where CR seems to lose his cool a bit and says that he "never said he did or didn't have amnesia" (loosely paraphrasing, here) did make me think perhaps CR could also lose his cool under pressure while being deposed. But then I remembered his lawyer would of course be present for a deposition-- which leads me to believe its much less likely for CR to 'slip up' or alter his story while being questioned.
Hmmm ... it's interesting to consider that CR might be operating in the dark. It's also possible that he IS the strongest link, though I agree that JR and MB's possible cooperation (collaboration?) seems odd in that respect. I could see JR participating, if drugs/alcohol were provided at his place, but I don't really get MB. And there's also DB to consider ... although he doesn't appear to be on the same radar as JR, CR, and MB, his name definitely comes up regarding this case, which has to affect him and his family. I can't see why he'd keep quiet unless it's to protect himself or maybe JR. JMO.
I agree. I'm a little skeptical that just having his lawyer present will prevent him from saying something stupid under pressure, but his lawyer should prepare him for any possible questions the Spierers throw his way, so it should be interesting.
It's well-known that JR has money and regardless if MB does or not, he is off the hook. Does CR also come from significant money in case he is found liable? If not, that might shape his approach if indeed he has been hiding anything.
In terms of connections if any of them are responsible, it could be that she ended up back at MB's/CR's without JR/guests knowing. In that scenario, either MB & CR could be together responsible or just one of them (if CR isn't sleeping, of course). This would narrow the number of people covering for others.
Let me clarify: there's no talk about Ketamine being involved—JR only mentioned Klonopin in relation to DR and LS. The only reason I mentioned it is that it's running rampant in my state (why IDK ???), and the side effects seemed to possibly correlate (LS being incoherent, leaving stuff behind, losing body control, mistaking an I-pod for a phone, etc.). I'd be inclined to think that someone gave it to her if it was in her system. What interests me the most is that it can be administered in various ways ...
Also, the fact that Klonopin, Adderall, and coke have been mentioned in different places in relation to this case makes me think that these kids had access to more than one drug. That's all ...
Ixchel13
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the thing about snorting these pills, and this is very much the rage, is that they
do too much of it. It's not like coke, where someone can make a huge line on a mirror and do it and then just a little while later, another.
These pills, adderall, oxycodone, Xanax, klonopin, are meant to be slowly digested. Ketamine should never, ever be snorted in a line, waaaay too much.
They snort it in "bumps" tinier than what fits on the tip of a key.
So these kids are doing lines of this stuff, and blacking out. I remember when they were just taking the pills, then Adderall was the first to be snorted.
iirc, klonopin could be prescribed for bad cramps; and of course Adderall for
good grades and increased social skills, it started out strictly ADHD meds but then kids started wrangling it out of their parents for studying, focus, etc and then started abusing it.
do too much of it. It's not like coke, where someone can make a huge line on a mirror and do it and then just a little while later, another.
These pills, adderall, oxycodone, Xanax, klonopin, are meant to be slowly digested. Ketamine should never, ever be snorted in a line, waaaay too much.
They snort it in "bumps" tinier than what fits on the tip of a key.
So these kids are doing lines of this stuff, and blacking out. I remember when they were just taking the pills, then Adderall was the first to be snorted.
iirc, klonopin could be prescribed for bad cramps; and of course Adderall for
good grades and increased social skills, it started out strictly ADHD meds but then kids started wrangling it out of their parents for studying, focus, etc and then started abusing it.
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