IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[sammi89]

2 men sued in Indiana student's disappearance say her parents' subpoenas reach too far



Also see:
Men: Requests by missing girl's parents too broad

Thanks for the update.


Hopefully they didn't have those burner phones....

I'm hopeful that, if granted, something useful might be gleaned from the cell record that the prosecution might be able to use, whether it is to officially pursue a stranger abduction or evidence that the 5N crew was involved.

Not sure how the academic record might be used though.

 

[imkeylime]

Thanks for the update.


Hopefully they didn't have those burner phones....

I'm hopeful that, if granted, something useful might be gleaned from the cell record that the prosecution might be able to use, whether it is to officially pursue a stranger abduction or evidence that the 5N crew was involved.

Not sure how the academic record might be used though.

That's exactly what I was thinking, sammi ... looking at a few weeks of cell phone records could be fruitful, especially if it unturned unusual connections. But I'm a bit stumped about the academic records.

I could see their academic performance suffering after the fact due to stress, but what would their academic performance before that night help illuminate? Thoughts, anyone?

 

[sammi89]

That's exactly what I was thinking, sammi ... looking at a few weeks of cell phone records could be fruitful, especially if it unturned unusual connections. But I'm a bit stumped about the academic records.

I could see their academic performance suffering after the fact due to stress, but what would their academic performance before that night help illuminate? Thoughts, anyone?

Would the phone records include texts? I wasn't even really thinking about connections - I was thinking about the texts lol. I usually lean toward pure luck with hiding the body if they are involved but if anyone else is involved that could prove useful too. I'd be especially interested in seeing if either CR or JW was contacted after MB took LS to JR's since they are both supposedly out of the narrative during this time period.

I initially thought the same about the academic records too, but wouldn't they have suffered regardless if they were involved merely from being associated as POIs and some of the public thinking they were guilty of all kinds of things? I'm not sure how telling the academic records would necessarily be in that sense.

Maybe they want to see if they took classes that would familiarize them with Indiana itself? IIRC, I think some posters mentioned very early on that some classes did involve going out into remote areas (like forests & lakes, maybe even those limestone quarries)? Maybe to see what classes they were taking tech-wise? I'm not sure how telling they would be though.

 

[sammi89]

Also, does anyone think that the Spierers might try to request social media information during discovery? I am a little surprised that they would request academic records and not request discovery on social media sites, especially because they might have included photos & statuses pertaining to the events that night and sometimes these include locations? Maybe they have and the article just didn't comment on it? I don't know how well it would fare but as long as they are pursuing the case anyway, why not try and see what the judge says?

IDK if any of you follow HB's case (sorry to keep bringing it up!) but the guy they arrested had some weird stuff on FB that people thought might relate to the kidnapping, so it's not like it is unheard of.

 

[imkeylime]

Would the phone records include texts? I wasn't even really thinking about connections - I was thinking about the texts lol. I usually lean toward pure luck with hiding the body if they are involved but if anyone else is involved that could prove useful too. I'd be especially interested in seeing if either CR or JW was contacted after MB took LS to JR's since they are both supposedly out of the narrative during this time period.

I initially thought the same about the academic records too, but wouldn't they have suffered regardless if they were involved merely from being associated as POIs and some of the public thinking they were guilty of all kinds of things? I'm not sure how telling the academic records would necessarily be in that sense.

Maybe they want to see if they took classes that would familiarize them with Indiana itself? IIRC, I think some posters mentioned very early on that some classes did involve going out into remote areas (like forests & lakes, maybe even those limestone quarries)? Maybe to see what classes they were taking tech-wise? I'm not sure how telling they would be though.

IDK if it varies by cell phone provider, but my cell phone company does preserve texts, although I'm not sure for how long. My daughter was bullied her sophomore year. Short version of story: a horrid girl stole her BF's cell phone and sent her horrid messages. The BF's mom got the records from Verizon. I do think there was a time frame involved, however.

I agree about stress from being a POI, regardless of the actual circumstances. You raise an interesting point ...

 

[sammi89]

IDK if it varies by cell phone provider, but my cell phone company does preserve texts, although I'm not sure for how long. My daughter was bullied her sophomore year. Short version of story: a horrid girl stole her BF's cell phone and sent her horrid messages. The BF's mom got the records from Verizon. I do think there was a time frame involved, however.

I agree about stress from being a POI, regardless of the actual circumstances. You raise an interesting point ...

Wow, I am sorry to hear your daughter went through that. People can be cruel. Thank you for sharing although I wish you had learned that under better circumstances!


I found this link showing how long some of the phone companies store data but keep in mind the article is from 2011 so it might have changed. It includes a table comparison though which is nice.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/mobile/how-long-do-wireless-carriers-keep-your-data-f120367
A better image of the chart here: https://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-loc...ponse-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart

ETA: Not looking too good for text content. Hopefully they had providers who stored information for the longer periods because some of them are just a year!

 

[imkeylime]

Wow, I am sorry to hear your daughter went through that. People can be cruel. Thank you for sharing although I wish you had learned that under better circumstances!


I found this link showing how long some of the phone companies store data but keep in mind the article is from 2011 so it might have changed. It includes a table comparison though which is nice.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/mobile/how-long-do-wireless-carriers-keep-your-data-f120367
A better image of the chart here: https://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-loc...ponse-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart

ETA: Not looking too good for text content. Hopefully they had providers who stored information for the longer periods because some of them are just a year!

Thanks ... she's doing fine now. Hard to believe it was over a boy who another girl liked! I see what you mean. We had (have) Verizon, as did the BF, which comes in second to Virgin Mobile for time saved. I wonder what provider(s) the POIs/LS had? Maybe LE asked that all pertinent cell phone records be preserved? That said, if they did that, I guess they didn't find much, or at least we didn't hear about it.

 

[Dixie811]

That's exactly what I was thinking, sammi ... looking at a few weeks of cell phone records could be fruitful, especially if it unturned unusual connections. But I'm a bit stumped about the academic records.

I could see their academic performance suffering after the fact due to stress, but what would their academic performance before that night help illuminate? Thoughts, anyone?

Could 'academic record' be a broad term that would include any record that the academic institution (IU) has on the boys? IE: a disciplinary record, or dorm room assignments (I know they weren't living in dorms in 2011 but I would assume they did as Freshmen).?

ETA- still thinking-- other things the institution may have on record- visits to student health, parking passes and what car was registered to them, their class schedule for any given semester...

 

[holly18]

That's exactly what I was thinking, sammi ... looking at a few weeks of cell phone records could be fruitful, especially if it unturned unusual connections. But I'm a bit stumped about the academic records.

I could see their academic performance suffering after the fact due to stress, but what would their academic performance before that night help illuminate? Thoughts, anyone?

The only clear connection I can think of is to see if MB actually had something due that he was working on that night? Though that version of the story seems to have disappeared.

It could also be an academic record that includes disciplinary charges?

 

[holly18]

Thanks ... she's doing fine now. Hard to believe it was over a boy who another girl liked! I see what you mean. We had (have) Verizon, as did the BF, which comes in second to Virgin Mobile for time saved. I wonder what provider(s) the POIs/LS had? Maybe LE asked that all pertinent cell phone records be preserved? That said, if they did that, I guess they didn't find much, or at least we didn't hear about it.

I'm glad your daughter is doing okay now! Thats an awful thing to go through.

 

[sammi89]

Could 'academic record' be a broad term that would include any record that the academic institution (IU) has on the boys? IE: a disciplinary record, or dorm room assignments (I know they weren't living in dorms in 2011 but I would assume they did as Freshmen).?

ETA- still thinking-- other things the institution may have on record- visits to student health, parking passes and what car was registered to them, their class schedule for any given semester...

Good question.

http://dsa.indiana.edu/cjp/records.html

Disciplinary records that include suspension or expulsion from the University may be kept indefinitely;
Disciplinary records that include disciplinary probation, expulsion from university housing and/or academic misconduct may be retained for five years beyond a student’s graduation, withdrawal, or transfer from the university;
Disciplinary records which concern findings of responsibility for academic misconduct may be retained for five years beyond a student’s graduation, withdrawal, or transfer from the university;
All other disciplinary records are destroyed after graduation, unless special circumstances warrant retaining of the files

http://www.iu.edu/~code/code/responsibilities/offcampus/index.shtml

The university may discipline a student for acts of personal misconduct or criminal acts that are not committed on university property if the acts arise from university activities that are being conducted off the university campus, or if the misconduct undermines the security of the university community or the integrity of the educational process or poses a serious threat to self or others......Presents a clear danger to the personal safety of any person or the protection of any person’s property, such as alcohol and drug offenses, arson, battery, fraud, hazing, participation in group violence, rape, sexual assault, stalking, or theft;

There is probably more out there but this seems to be more what the Spierers would want information on, I would guess.

 

[Dixie811]

I have heard of universities handling sexual assaults 'in house', particularly when it happens in the dorms. IE: after a night of partying, a girl is date raped or otherwise taken advantage of in a male student's dorm room. The university does not want bad press, so they give the male student a slap on the wrist or maybe expel him from the dorm at most.

^^ I wonder if one of the POI's has something like this in their past? Complete speculation.

 

[holly18]

I have heard of universities handling sexual assaults 'in house', particularly when it happens in the dorms. IE: after a night of partying, a girl is date raped or otherwise taken advantage of in a male student's dorm room. The university does not want bad press, so they give the male student a slap on the wrist or maybe expel him from the dorm at most.

^^ I wonder if one of the POI's has something like this in their past? Complete speculation.

Thats what I thought of too. There was an incident at my very small school of a sexual assault being handled 'in house', I'd imagine it would be even more prevalent in a much larger school like IU

 

[Kadence]

Going back to areas searched earlier, like the landfill, whatever happened with the limestone quarries? It sounds like they might be difficult to search too.

It looks like from Texas EquuSearch brought in drones early to search them because they are difficult to search (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/firstatfour/story?section=firstatfour&id=8168884), but it looks like LE put a stop to the use of drones fairly quickly in LS' case (http://www.suasnews.com/2014/04/286...deral-drone-ban-is-thwarting-rescue-missions/).

I felt really bad for CS & her husband reading that. I wonder if there was any credible leads on the limestone quarries? Do the college kids there frequent them, especially the out-of-state kids? I hope LE has somehow checked them out since!

Thanks for sharing these articles Sammi, a quote from your second article just breaks my heart and enrages me at the same time:

"I had to look at Lauren Spierer’s mother as she wailed when we told her we were leaving the search. We had to watch her husband cry,” Robinson said. “To watch that woman cry as we were walking out the door was not an easy thing to do, but because of what the FAA did, and the sideshow it became, we had to go.”

What is the big deal with drones? Am I missing something? They seem very beneficial in search and rescue where it would be do difficult/dangerous for a searcher/rescuer to go on foot. Maybe someone can help me understand?

I'm also interested in what led them there, something had to and then they wouldn't let them do a proper search - what?! Grrr!

 

[sammi89]

Thanks for sharing these articles Sammi, a quote from your second article just breaks my heart and enrages me at the same time:

"I had to look at Lauren Spierer’s mother as she wailed when we told her we were leaving the search. We had to watch her husband cry,” Robinson said. “To watch that woman cry as we were walking out the door was not an easy thing to do, but because of what the FAA did, and the sideshow it became, we had to go.”

What is the big deal with drones? Am I missing something? They seem very beneficial in search and rescue where it would be do difficult/dangerous for a searcher/rescuer to go on foot. Maybe someone can help me understand?

I'm also interested in what led them there, something had to and then they wouldn't let them do a proper search - what?! Grrr!

I think it speaks volumes about CS & her husband because I don't recall them ever bringing that up in the media or calling out LE.

 

[akh]

I would assume LE already has those phone records.

From a legal POV for the civil case I can see the argument being made by the defendants. They aren't being sued for being the ones that brought harm to her. They are being sued as people that should've taken better care of her so that harm didn't come to her when they let her leave their apartment complex. So phone calls, 134 days prior, and 134 days after, will take some spinning to make that relevant to the civil trial.

It's certainly (potentially) relevant to the criminal case and as a way to find out what happened (or might've happened). But the civil case has already been formed. One of the problems is, we all know(greatly assume) it is a fishing expedition. I don't think many of us believe the parents really think that JR watched LS walk out the door. They are simply using 5N's words to create a case that they hope will force them to slip up in questioning or point fingers to avoid a loss at trial.

I don't recall wording of the civil case to point to 5N as the potential cause of her demise anyway or any type of conspiracy to hide what really happened. So that will limit the evidence they can hope to independently get their hands on somewhat.

At the moment I'm having a hard time thinking of a reason those phone calls would be relevant to the narrow terms of what I recall the civil case to be about. Same for the academic records.

 

[AbbeyR]

Zoe was at the party at SW before Lauren left with DR to go to JR's.

Link? Her statement was about seeing Lauren do shots at JR's, wasn't it?

Unless you are working directly with Capt. Qualters, and I don't think you are, you can't possibly know what he was referring to, because that statement in question can be read several different ways, sorry if you don't agree with my interpretation, but I'm sticking to it.:twocents:

Well, you are free to interpret however you want. However, he released this information in a public statement, and what he is saying about the times and video evidence is pretty straighforward, IMO. Plus, the same facts have been made public by numerous sources, including the private investigators and numerous MSM articles (as cited here). Not everything is speculation - we do have some information to go on.

BBM, "seems" isn't quite good enough, especially from LoHud

Sorry if my wording was not clear. Both the private investigators and LE have stated that they are basing the timeline, in part, on video surveillance.

 

[AbbeyR]

Thanks for sharing these articles Sammi, a quote from your second article just breaks my heart and enrages me at the same time:

"I had to look at Lauren Spierer’s mother as she wailed when we told her we were leaving the search. We had to watch her husband cry,” Robinson said. “To watch that woman cry as we were walking out the door was not an easy thing to do, but because of what the FAA did, and the sideshow it became, we had to go.”

What is the big deal with drones? Am I missing something? They seem very beneficial in search and rescue where it would be do difficult/dangerous for a searcher/rescuer to go on foot. Maybe someone can help me understand?

I'm also interested in what led them there, something had to and then they wouldn't let them do a proper search - what?! Grrr!

Heartbreaking. They must feel so helpless.

 

[AbbeyR]

Good question.

http://dsa.indiana.edu/cjp/records.html


http://www.iu.edu/~code/code/responsibilities/offcampus/index.shtml


There is probably more out there but this seems to be more what the Spierers would want information on, I would guess.

Interesting questions about the academic records, Dixie and Sammi.

IIRC, Corey Rossman had at least some drug related charges when he was living in a campus residence, one of which seems to have disappeared from the MyCase records since this case began. (I'm not sure how/ why that happens - I've noticed a few records have changed since 2011. Anyone?)

I also wonder about the rumors about disciplinary action related to Aepi.

Re: the sexual assault cases being handled 'in house' - there were some articles about this specifically in reference to IU that were posted here a long time ago - it was in a series about ineffective action in sexual assault reporting on campuses...

 

[sammi89]

Link? Her statement was about seeing Lauren do shots at JR's, wasn't it?

I have the link handy: http://roc.democratandchronicle.com...en-Spierer-case-3-men-scapegoated-friend-says

Indiana University student Zoe Camp saw Lauren Spierer swallowing shots at a party hours before she disappeared....
...She’s friends with Jay Rosenbaum, Corey Rossman and Mike Beth, the last three people who were known to see Spierer the morning she went missing.

I think that there was basketball and wine (IIRC?) at Smallwood, but the party and shots were at JR's, plus she is friends with them.

Some of the criticism aimed at ZC really makes me understand why someone might not want to come forward and share their information, especially if they were only present earlier in the night. LE has never named her. That being said, she did speak with media so hopefully she was prepared for people questioning her involvement.