IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

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I wish we were privy to the pings and tele records. I bet LE knows wayyy more than we do.
 
holly18 said:
You're the one who first mentioned AB being a POI, not me.
If JR had Guests, thats DB + at least one more person. That leaves one spot.

LE didn't make the entire list clear because that isn't how law enforcement or the legal system works. As a member of this forum, and as a person who has been following this case since a day or two after Lauren disappeared, I wish they shared information more freely with people like us. The fact is, they don't. Things they share are accessible to the POIs and to anyone else involved. They are not going to list all the persons of interest.

LE in this case has been really clear in terms of how forthcoming they are. They don't release information. This isn't a case where they update us every so often. They're not asking for super public help. IMO thats been really clear.

You made mention of the POI list, so I'm not sure why you seem to think that my version is useless. JR, MB, CR are the last people to see Lauren alive. They are persons of interest, I promise you. JW is her boyfriend, he is a person of interest right off the bat. DR had been with her earlier that night, AB and ZO had found items of hers and had issues with CR that night. DB, and whoever else JR had staying with him, were apparently people physically staying at the location where lauren was last seen. if they were present when Lauren arrived at JR's and have since completely disappeared from the narrative provided by Cory, Jason and Mike, there's damn good reason for suspecting them, both on our part and on LE's.

You've mentioned multiple theories where females figure heavily into your theory, but the fact is that Lauren wasn't known to be with (or fighting with) any women/girls on that night. Maybe Zoe was awake that night and just didn't want to let people into her apartment. Maybe she was asleep. I still think its a pretty big leap to assume that Zoe had somehow managed to steal lauren's phone (when there's no evidence she was at the bar where lauren left her phone) or was informing JW, when there's nothing to connect them. I think its much more realistic to assume that the people who were with Lauren in the hours before she went missing, in the hours when she was known to be in a bad state, and whose stories have changed and contradict each other, were responsible than it is to theorize about a fight/argument/disagreement that we have absolutely zero evidence, zero rumors to support led to Lauren's disappearance and/or death.
Click to expand...

BBM.now that you mention it, I have theorized that Zoe had her phone--whether on purpose, or accidentally found it, or even told her she had it and come get it--who knows? or maybe Lauren just thought someone there had it and they didn't. But yes, that was one theory.

.
 
holly18 said:
You're the one who first mentioned AB being a POI, not me.
If JR had Guests, thats DB + at least one more person. That leaves one spot.

LE didn't make the entire list clear because that isn't how law enforcement or the legal system works. As a member of this forum, and as a person who has been following this case since a day or two after Lauren disappeared, I wish they shared information more freely with people like us. The fact is, they don't. Things they share are accessible to the POIs and to anyone else involved. They are not going to list all the persons of interest.

LE in this case has been really clear in terms of how forthcoming they are. They don't release information. This isn't a case where they update us every so often. They're not asking for super public help. IMO thats been really clear.

You made mention of the POI list, so I'm not sure why you seem to think that my version is useless. JR, MB, CR are the last people to see Lauren alive. They are persons of interest, I promise you. JW is her boyfriend, he is a person of interest right off the bat. DR had been with her earlier that night, AB and ZO had found items of hers and had issues with CR that night. DB, and whoever else JR had staying with him, were apparently people physically staying at the location where lauren was last seen. if they were present when Lauren arrived at JR's and have since completely disappeared from the narrative provided by Cory, Jason and Mike, there's damn good reason for suspecting them, both on our part and on LE's.

You've mentioned multiple theories where females figure heavily into your theory, but the fact is that Lauren wasn't known to be with (or fighting with) any women/girls on that night. Maybe Zoe was awake that night and just didn't want to let people into her apartment. Maybe she was asleep. I still think its a pretty big leap to assume that Zoe had somehow managed to steal lauren's phone (when there's no evidence she was at the bar where lauren left her phone) or was informing JW, when there's nothing to connect them.

I think its much more realistic to assume that the people who were with Lauren in the hours before she went missing, in the hours when she was known to be in a bad state, and whose stories have changed and contradict each other, were responsible than it is to theorize about a fight/argument/disagreement that we have absolutely zero evidence, zero rumors to support led to Lauren's disappearance and/or death.
Click to expand...

But I do think the 5N are involved, plus others.
 
Ixchel13 said:
BBM.now that you mention it, I have theorized that Zoe had her phone--whether on purpose, or accidentally found it, or even told her she had it and come get it--who knows? or maybe Lauren just thought someone there had it and they didn't. But yes, that was one theory.

.
Click to expand...

Then how did Lauren's phone get back to Kilroy's?
 
holly18 said:
From literally every mainstream media publication that mentions DB it says that he was staying with JR. ZC might have done shots with Lauren earlier in the evening, but there's nothing saying that she actually saw lauren later that night. HT was lauren's roommate, and while I do think she seems a little off, again, there has been nothing linking her to lauren that night. DB was physically staying at DB's residence. I'm not sure how the difference isn't clear... Were ZC and HT sleeping at JR's? If lauren was there late at night, and JR, DB's host, was apparently done partying that night and at home, wouldn't DB be there as well? We've heard absolutely nothing about where DB was that night until he went for brunch.

Unless you have another source for your comment about ZC, all I've read about her commenting in mainstream media is her saying that she did not hear Lauren buzzing to get into her house, and she doesn't know what would have happened if she had heard it and let lauren in. And that was also sometime after Lauren disappeared, not the next day or the next month. Unless I'm missing a link, there is nothing at all to link lauren to zc later that night other than lauren and CR (which some people seem to be conveniently forgetting) knocked on her door. We do have evidence linking her to multiple other people later that night, so I'm not sure what the fixation with ZC is.

Association is one thing, physically staying at the residence where Lauren was last seen is another matter. One person claims she saw lauren drinking much earlier that evening, and then lauren and cory tried and failed to buzz into her building (and according to ixchel they couldn't have even contacted ZC's apartment from outside), and three other people claim to have been physically with lauren after that.
Click to expand...

BBM that's just it, she gave evidence to LE and then made it public--Lauren was doing shots. let's be frank, she's a witness in this case as well as a friend and associate of the POIs. If I want to cast doubt on her I can, this is a site where people do just that.
 
Ixchel13 said:
[/B]
But I do think the 5N are involved, plus others.
Click to expand...

I agree that 5N is involved, possibly plus others, but I'm more inclined to think that the others are people like DB, who JR at least would have had a reason to protect rather than ZC/HT...
That being said, I personally, IMO etc, don't find it a stretch to think that HT knows more than she's told. IMO, if we're looking for someone who was connected and has spoken to the media, its HT. I don't really think she was involved that night, but I think she knows more about what happened than what she's telling. Again, JMO and I can't really back it up. Just a vibe I get from what she's said in the past
 
Possibly also of interest:

SCHEDULING ORDER: Having approved the Case Management Plan as amended, the Court hereby sets the final pretrial conference on April 8, 2015 at 1:30 p.m., in Room 330, and the jury trial to begin on May 4, 2015 at 9:00 a.m., in Courtroom 344, Birch Bayh Federal Building and United States Courthouse, 46 East Ohio Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Signed by Judge Tanya Walton Pratt on 4/23/2014.(TRG) (Entered: 04/23/2014)


I looked at copies of the witness lists for the two defendants, and even though they list the right to use people named in the other's list, the similarities on those specifically named consist mainly of the names oft repeated here: JR, JW, CR, MB, ZO, DR, DB, HT, (and an AF that hasn't been mentioned before). Otherwise their lists differ in the other ten or so names along with generalities such as members of BPD and employees of Kilroys.
 
Ixchel13 said:
BBM that's just it, she gave evidence to LE and then made it public--Lauren was doing shots. let's be frank, she's a witness in this case as well as a friend and associate of the POIs. If I want to cast doubt on her I can, this is a site where people do just that.
Click to expand...

Obviously you're totally allowed to cast doubt on her, and I apologize if I was making it seem otherwise.
I personally don't agree, because I haven't seen anything suggesting any involvement beyond doing shots with Lauren. IMO, that doesn't seem like much of a reason to doubt her, but we all have our own reasoning and you're of course beyond entitled to yours. I'm glad she spoke to LE, IMO everyone who saw lauren or anyone else associated with the case that night should come forward. Like the spierers say, "anything small could be big", you never know what tiny detail could be a big break for the case.
 
bx2 said:
Possibly also of interest:

SCHEDULING ORDER: Having approved the Case Management Plan as amended, the Court hereby sets the final pretrial conference on April 8, 2015 at 1:30 p.m., in Room 330, and the jury trial to begin on May 4, 2015 at 9:00 a.m., in Courtroom 344, Birch Bayh Federal Building and United States Courthouse, 46 East Ohio Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Signed by Judge Tanya Walton Pratt on 4/23/2014.(TRG) (Entered: 04/23/2014)


I looked at copies of the witness lists for the two defendants, and even though they list the right to use people named in the other's list, the similarities on those specifically named consist mainly of the names oft repeated here: JR, JW, CR, MB, ZO, DR, DB, HT, (and an AF that hasn't been mentioned before). Otherwise their lists differ in the other ten or so names along with generalities such as members of BPD and employees of Kilroys.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link for this? Not doubting you at all, I'd just like to be able to see the rest of the list.

I'm very interested that they listed DB. So far he's only been mentioned in articles/speculation, not by LE. Glad to see they'll hopefully get some answers from him!
 
holly18 said:
I agree that 5N is involved, possibly plus others, but I'm more inclined to think that the others are people like DB, who JR at least would have had a reason to protect rather than ZC/HT...
That being said, I personally, IMO etc, don't find it a stretch to think that HT knows more than she's told. IMO, if we're looking for someone who was connected and has spoken to the media, its HT. I don't really think she was involved that night, but I think she knows more about what happened than what she's telling. Again, JMO and I can't really back it up. Just a vibe I get from what she's said in the past
Click to expand...

RE: HT, I've always wondered what changed:

Hadar Tamir, Spierer’s roommate, was also among the graduates.

“That made it all very real for us; graduating without her and going on with our lives without her,” Tamir wrote in an email to the paper.

Tamir was friends with graduate Jay Rosenbaum, who was the last person known to see Spierer before she went missing. She said she supports the Spierer family in their effort to get Rosenbaum and three other students to be more forthcoming with authorities.

"I do not know what the boys are up to these days,” Tamir said, “and I wish that the select few that could really help out the Spierers and cooperate with them would finally do so.”
Click to expand...
http://www.lohud.com/article/20130531/NEWS/305310114
 
holly18 said:
Do you have a link for this? Not doubting you at all, I'd just like to be able to see the rest of the list.

I'm very interested that they listed DB. So far he's only been mentioned in articles/speculation, not by LE. Glad to see they'll hopefully get some answers from him!
Click to expand...

I'm always curious about DB's obscurity. JMO.
 
holly18 said:
Obviously you're totally allowed to cast doubt on her, and I apologize if I was making it seem otherwise.
I personally don't agree, because I haven't seen anything suggesting any involvement beyond doing shots with Lauren. IMO, that doesn't seem like much of a reason to doubt her, but we all have our own reasoning and you're of course beyond entitled to yours. I'm glad she spoke to LE, IMO everyone who saw lauren or anyone else associated with the case that night should come forward. Like the spierers say, "anything small could be big", you never know what tiny detail could be a big break for the case.
Click to expand...

IDK, she got drunk with Lauren that evening, but when Lauren knocked on her door, she wouldn't let her in? Is it a big deal to get up and open a door to see
if someone you know needs help? Is it a big deal to walk someone home who lives 3 minutes away? IMO. these people are all lying! For each other and with each other.
 
Ixchel13 said:
if you want to know that answer, you'll have to search back through the threads because I know I'm not going there, lol
Click to expand...

Haha its okay, I have a good memory for stuff like this (although I manage to have an awful memory when it comes to stuff I'm tested on!) I don't think that theory about ZC (and friends) placing the phone at Kilroy's is impossible, I just feel like its farfetched, but thats just IMO. I tend to think the easiest/clearest explanation is usually the right one in cases like this, but who knows. Really hoping that Kpeacock gets some answers from LE!
 
Ixchel13 said:
IDK, she got drunk with Lauren that evening, but when Lauren knocked on her door, she wouldn't let her in? Is it a big deal to get up and open a door to see
if someone you know needs help? Is it a big deal to walk someone home who lives 3 minutes away? IMO. these people are all lying! For each other and with each other.
Click to expand...

IDK, as awful as it sounds I've had friends knock on my door super late at night when I was in college and 99.9% of the time it was for something absurd (ie my boyfriend is being annoying, I really want easymac, do you have ramen, etc) and if I was in bed asleep or half asleep I wouldn't always respond (and most of the time didn't even hear them). If I had reason to believe that friend was in trouble, of course I'd respond asap, but I've never had that situation happen.

I don't personally think ZC had any reason to know Lauren was in any trouble, since she'd been with her so many hours ago. If she did know lauren was in trouble and deliberately didn't respond, then I totally agree that its a different level of awful.
 
holly18 said:
Do you have a link for this? Not doubting you at all, I'd just like to be able to see the rest of the list.
Click to expand...

Court transcripts and documents are available (for a small fee) via the PACER system (http://www.pacer.gov) and https://ecf.insd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/ShowIndex.pl


holly18 said:
I'm very interested that they listed DB. So far he's only been mentioned in articles/speculation, not by LE. Glad to see they'll hopefully get some answers from him!
Click to expand...

He is listed on the defendent witness list as a matter of disclosure of who they can call on for their own behalf, so not necessarily providing any relevant answers if he is even sought out for that. These witness lists are a formality and have de facto catch alls like preserving the right to amend as discovery continues, just thought it was interesting to see certain names specified on both lists.
 
bx2 said:
Court transcripts and documents are available (for a small fee) via the PACER system (http://www.pacer.gov) and https://ecf.insd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/ShowIndex.pl




He is listed on the defendent witness list as a matter of disclosure of who they can call on for their own behalf, so not necessarily providing any relevant answers if he is even sought out for that. These witness lists are a formality and have de facto catch alls like preserving the right to amend as discovery continues, just thought it was interesting to see certain names specified on both lists.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the information. ;)
 
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