IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[Ixchel13]

IDK, as awful as it sounds I've had friends knock on my door super late at night when I was in college and 99.9% of the time it was for something absurd (ie my boyfriend is being annoying, I really want easymac, do you have ramen, etc) and if I was in bed asleep or half asleep I wouldn't always respond (and most of the time didn't even hear them). If I had reason to believe that friend was in trouble, of course I'd respond asap, but I've never had that situation happen.
I don't personally think ZC had any reason to know Lauren was in any trouble, since she'd been with her so many hours ago. If she did know lauren was in trouble and deliberately didn't respond, then I totally agree that its a different level of awful.

BBM I have a saying for that, "Nothing bad ever happens til it does."

 

[kpeacock]

I think you mean AA and his friend?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #9



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/1...-offer-clues-in-case-missing-indiana-student/

I think that is the closest anyone is going to get with an official "list" and only 4 have been named publicly AFAIK, and the number "10" is pretty misleading since Qualters himself said it isn't a static number.

.

Yes, AA is this guy - found Lauren's keys. There is an AB of interest, that's Arjun Babu. Friends with Zach Oakes, sent the questionable tweet "give Teddy an adderall and a flashlight and he'll find Lauren #findlauren" on June 11, 2011(screenshot at bottom of article: http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2011/07/star-questions-police-investigation-of.html?m=1)

He's also one brought up by the "public" in article comments (and on facebook), usually in connection with the white truck theory - at the time, drove a white truck similar in appearance to the one released on surveillance by LE.

IIRC, he may have been present at ZO/CR altercation at Smallwood? Though I may have just gleaned this from article comments, not confirmed. I remember speculation that he was the "mystery man" based on his appearance.

Relevant links:

http://silentsender.blogspot.com/2011/06/lauren-spierer-missing-send-anonymous.html?m=1

http://thedirty.com/2012/07/if-anyone-can-help-out-here-its-the-dirty-army-2/

TG screenshots some of AB's relevant tweets here, and references "mystery man":
http://tonygatto.com/2011/07/04/man...end-at-smallwood-identified-as-zachary-oakes/

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[AbbeyR]

AB was brought up entirely by Tony Gatto who strongly insinuated he could be the mystery man (based I guess on being 'dark skinned' and being associated with ZO) and people ran with it. The rumor was given fuel by someone finding a photo of a white truck on FB, even though it didn't match the white truck in the surveillance photo, and even though the white truck ended up cleared by LE.

But, TG never even confirmed whether AB was in Bloomington the night Lauren disappeared, let alone out with ZO.

It makes me realize how much influence TG had in creating and promoting the whole idea of a 'mystery man', which didn't exist in the first place, and potentially confusing people about who the Persons of Interest were in this case. AB was never named by LE, the media, the Spierers or anyone else -- and no one has ever claimed he was involved with Lauren or the guys at 5 N that night. This was one of the things I thought was really irresponsible about TG's blog. JMO

 

[kpeacock]

Speaking of the white truck, something has been bothering me about the accuracy of the given timeline. After the truck was cleared by LE, it was stated in major media that the time stamps on surveillance videos were not correct:

" A white truck was spotted on surveillance tape in the area where Spierer disappeared on the night she was last seen. While footage initially seemed to show the truck circling the block, it was later determined that a time discrepancy between tapes had shown the same footage twice. Authorities did not believe the truck was related to Spierer's disappearance."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mickey-shu...share-striking-similarities/story?id=16449634

Can we then deduce that other surveillance video used to create timeline may be timestamped incorrectly? If so, are witness statements then more credible - the 3:38 sighting by bar manager, perhaps, and the scream supposedly reported by Road Dog Crawford, 4:35 am? (referenced in this timeline:
http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477)

 

[kpeacock]

AB was brought up entirely by Tony Gatto and then given fuel by someone finding a photo of a white truck, even though it didn't match the white truck in the surveillance photo, and even though the white truck ended up cleared by LE.

TG never even confirmed whether AB was in Bloomington the night Lauren disappeared, let alone out with ZO.

I could be wrong, but I think AB was first mentioned by anonymous commenters on online articles, before TG's first mention. Maybe he followed those leads, or just used anonymous comments for speculation? Of course, anon comments can't be quoted as facts. Doesn't mean there might not be something there, though - especially if students with info were hesitant to speak publicly, or at least openly with LE. In my mind - not confirmed, but not forgotten.

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[imkeylime]

Possibly also of interest:

SCHEDULING ORDER: Having approved the Case Management Plan as amended, the Court hereby sets the final pretrial conference on April 8, 2015 at 1:30 p.m., in Room 330, and the jury trial to begin on May 4, 2015 at 9:00 a.m., in Courtroom 344, Birch Bayh Federal Building and United States Courthouse, 46 East Ohio Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Signed by Judge Tanya Walton Pratt on 4/23/2014.(TRG) (Entered: 04/23/2014)


I looked at copies of the witness lists for the two defendants, and even though they list the right to use people named in the other's list, the similarities on those specifically named consist mainly of the names oft repeated here: JR, JW, CR, MB, ZO, DR, DB, HT, (and an AF that hasn't been mentioned before). Otherwise their lists differ in the other ten or so names along with generalities such as members of BPD and employees of Kilroys.

Interesting. Very curious who AF is ... still wondering who that second call made from JR's was to. ???

 

[kpeacock]

AB was brought up entirely by Tony Gatto who strongly insinuated he could be the mystery man (based I guess on being 'dark skinned' and being associated with ZO) and people ran with it. The rumor was given fuel by someone finding a photo of a white truck on FB, even though it didn't match the white truck in the surveillance photo, and even though the white truck ended up cleared by LE.

But, TG never even confirmed whether AB was in Bloomington the night Lauren disappeared, let alone out with ZO.

It makes me realize how much influence TG had in creating and promoting the whole idea of a 'mystery man', which didn't exist in the first place, and potentially confusing people about who the Persons of Interest were in this case. AB was never named by LE, the media, the Spierers or anyone else as being involved with Lauren or the guys at 5 N that night. This was one of the things I thought was really irresponsible about TG's blog. JMO

AbbeyR, I found the connection between AB and mystery man based on ethnicity alone disturbing myself. Yet I think he may have been one of the original ten POIs, or perhaps just speculated as such (relevant to recent convo.) I understand what you mean by irresponsible reporting.

Either way, still unconfirmed but perhaps worthy of continued thought?

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[AbbeyR]

I could be wrong, but I think AB was first mentioned by anonymous commenters on online articles, before TG's first mention. Maybe he followed those leads, or just used anonymous comments for speculation? Of course, anon comments can't be quoted as facts. Doesn't mean there might not be something there, though - especially if students with info were hesitant to speak publicly, or at least openly with LE. In my mind - not confirmed, but not forgotten.

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Yes, I think you are likely correct -- I just meant that TG made this 'news'. TG was hand-fed a bunch of rumors about ZO and friends. The rumors about ZO (which were also never supported by even a smidgen of actual evidence) and his roommates were posted on PT, here, and as anonymous comments in a few other places, as you've shown.

I obsessively tracked down these comments at one point trying to get an idea of where they came from, and I've said before that there is reason to believe, IMO, that most came from a single source. I really hope LE/ the Spierers were able to get their hands on some social media evidence, because I think some of it has potential to be interesting.

My criticism of TG's blog though, is: Did he actually follow these 'leads'? Or did he just publicize the rumors, without doing any actual investigative journalism? I would have loved to have known if there was any substance to the rumors, and some of them would have been easy to determine -- such as, was AB even around that night? Does ZO have a record? But all TG did was draw on things like tweets to create an atmosphere for suspicion and rumors to gain hold. He said he only spoke to one person, in person - that was the bar manager. So I believe that many of his sources came from PT and other anonymous commentators, without doing anything to verify these sources or information.

 

[Btown]

In light of the discussion related to number of POI's, thought this was an interesting detail to speculate on:

(possibly paywalled)
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/ne...cle_0946d189-b5eb-52c6-add7-3ef0d8e863bd.html

No paywall, and a bit more data...

Spierer lawyers subpoena wireless carriers

The two defendants in the civil suit, Corey Rossman and Jason Rosenbaum, believed to have been with Lauren the night she disappeared in June 2011, motioned for the subpoenas to be quashed, according to court documents.

Subpoenaed parties also include E.R. Lewis & Company, Curry Real Estate Development & Management, LLC, and Smallwood Plaza.

In addition to Rossman and Rosenbaum, the Spierers sought phone records for a four-month span, May 27 to Sept. 30, 2011, from more than a dozen additional individuals.

 

[kpeacock]

I would assume LE already has those phone records.

From a legal POV for the civil case I can see the argument being made by the defendants. They aren't being sued for being the ones that brought harm to her. They are being sued as people that should've taken better care of her so that harm didn't come to her when they let her leave their apartment complex. So phone calls, 134 days prior, and 134 days after, will take some spinning to make that relevant to the civil trial.

It's certainly (potentially) relevant to the criminal case and as a way to find out what happened (or might've happened). But the civil case has already been formed. One of the problems is, we all know(greatly assume) it is a fishing expedition. I don't think many of us believe the parents really think that JR watched LS walk out the door. They are simply using 5N's words to create a case that they hope will force them to slip up in questioning or point fingers to avoid a loss at trial.

I don't recall wording of the civil case to point to 5N as the potential cause of her demise anyway or any type of conspiracy to hide what really happened. So that will limit the evidence they can hope to independently get their hands on somewhat.

At the moment I'm having a hard time thinking of a reason those phone calls would be relevant to the narrow terms of what I recall the civil case to be about. Same for the academic records.

Question for Akh, or anyone with more legal knowledge than I have: if LE already has these phone records, are they not allowed to share them to aid the civil case?

Legally speaking, do requests for personal cell records/communication have to be approved by the judge, even if already obtained by LE?

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[Ros]

Interesting questions about the academic records, Dixie and Sammi.

IIRC, Corey Rossman had at least some drug related charges when he was living in a campus residence, one of which seems to have disappeared from the MyCase records since this case began. (I'm not sure how/ why that happens - I've noticed a few records have changed since 2011. Anyone?)

I also wonder about the rumors about disciplinary action related to Aepi.

Re: the sexual assault cases being handled 'in house' - there were some articles about this specifically in reference to IU that were posted here a long time ago - it was in a series about ineffective action in sexual assault reporting on campuses...

Indiana now permits arrest records to be sealed after a year or so if the case was dismissed. An "earned dismissal" or pretrial diversion would be situations in which records could be sealed. Sealed records are available to LE but do not appear on mycase or on criminal background checks.
http://www.indy.gov/eGov/County/Clerk/criminal/Documents/IC35-38-9.pdf

 

[Ros]

Possibly also of interest:

SCHEDULING ORDER: Having approved the Case Management Plan as amended, the Court hereby sets the final pretrial conference on April 8, 2015 at 1:30 p.m., in Room 330, and the jury trial to begin on May 4, 2015 at 9:00 a.m., in Courtroom 344, Birch Bayh Federal Building and United States Courthouse, 46 East Ohio Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Signed by Judge Tanya Walton Pratt on 4/23/2014.(TRG) (Entered: 04/23/2014)


I looked at copies of the witness lists for the two defendants, and even though they list the right to use people named in the other's list, the similarities on those specifically named consist mainly of the names oft repeated here: JR, JW, CR, MB, ZO, DR, DB, HT, (and an AF that hasn't been mentioned before). Otherwise their lists differ in the other ten or so names along with generalities such as members of BPD and employees of Kilroys.

Link?

Oops. Sorry. I missed the earlier posting of the link to the PACER system

 

[akh]

Question for Akh, or anyone with more legal knowledge than I have: if LE already has these phone records, are they not allowed to share them to aid the civil case?

Legally speaking, do requests for personal cell records/communication have to be approved by the judge, even if already obtained by LE?

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LE could share them. The odds of them doing it are nearly nil in most cases so I don't see why this case would be different. Their first goal is to protect their criminal investigation and all evidence gathered to use at a future criminal trial.

The investigators for the civil case can request documents from anyone but without a court order many entities might not comply in full or even in part.

 

[Ixchel13]

No paywall, and a bit more data...

Spierer lawyers subpoena wireless carriers

E.R. Lewis--owner of 10th and College. Must be attempting to place Lauren inside the building? interesting.

 

[akh]

E.R. Lewis--owner of 10th and College. Must be attempting to place Lauren inside the building? interesting.

Or confirm she wasn't maybe?

 

[sammi89]

AbbeyR, I found the connection between AB and mystery man based on ethnicity alone disturbing myself. Yet I think he may have been one of the original ten POIs, or perhaps just speculated as such (relevant to recent convo.) I understand what you mean by irresponsible reporting.

Either way, still unconfirmed but perhaps worthy of continued thought?

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When I first heard about AB I felt similarly, but I think it is important to remember that memory isn't perfect. If she really did see someone carrying a girl, she could have gotten some of those details wrong, especially because it was late (or early, depending on your POV lol) and probably dark, or she might be misremembering some things ("false memory" type of stuff). That applies to all the witnesses though, not just this particular one.

The rumor was prevalent at the time enough that despite the irresponsible reporting that both LE and the PI have since investigated it and made comments regarding the "mystery man," (or lack of one, IMO). Hopefully AB agreed to talk to one or both as well.

 

[sammi89]

Can we then deduce that other surveillance video used to create timeline may be timestamped incorrectly? If so, are witness statements then more credible - the 3:38 sighting by bar manager, perhaps, and the scream supposedly reported by Road Dog Crawford, 4:35 am? (referenced in this timeline:
http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477)

Snipped by me.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2011/0...-not-connected-indiana-students-disappearance

In releasing times for video sightings last week, Qualters had cautioned that police were relying on the cameras’ timestamps and could not independently verify them

http://archive.firstcoastnews.com/n...-Spierer?odyssey=mod|newswell|img|FRONTPAGE|p

Much of the early morning of June 3, her movements were caught on surveillance video and are documented down to the minute. The timeline thins out considerably after 2:51 a.m., when police say they have only witness accounts of her movements -- including the last sight of her at 4:30 a.m.

I think the "documented down to the minute" is probably a stretch and misleading given the timestamp issue but there seems to be a portion of the night that can be verified objectively vs the second part of the night that is only witness accounts.

I don't know if it necessarily makes it more credible - that part of the night has always been shifty because there is no objective evidence.


OT to current conversation but in regards to stranger abduction:
https://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81967

Qualters also says that a Texas-based group, EquuSearch, has joined the effort and that the Marshals were conducting a sex offender search, in which everyone investigated was compliant.

I'm sure that was probably posted a long time ago, but I wonder if LE has ever designated any of them as POIs? If she somehow did make it out and/or was kicked out, that's where I would look next :twocents:

 

[Dixie811]

No paywall, and a bit more data...

Spierer lawyers subpoena wireless carriers

Argh I couldn't quote exactly how I wanted to, but in Btown's post upthread the quote says the Spierer's suit requested phone records from over a dozen individuals from May 27, 2011 to September 30 of 2011.

This is important to me because they are, IMO, really interested in the relationships of the young people connected to this case.

For example: Whose friendship fizzled; who stopped communicating altogether a within months of Lauren disappearing?

Who exchanged a flurry of texts or calls the day that press conferences were held, or certain searches were announced? Are there individuals who communicated almost exclusively on days that new information about the case/searches was released?

Additionally...

Who claimed to have gone home to another state for the duration of the summer of 2011, while their cell records may indicate they made an overnight road-trip back to IN, unknown to LE? Perhaps to move or remove evidence/remains.

When school began in the fall and many of the key players returned to Bloomington, did one or two of them also make a trip out to the boondocks where they would have no logical reason to be?

^All hypothetical, of course.


I have no doubts if any of the young people connected to this case were involved in disposing of a body, they would have known how important it would be not to have your phone turned on or with you if disposing of the body on June 3. However, months later? Were they still mindful of their cell phone recording their every location? Did they think that their communications with other POI's would be looked at as late as September? Maybe someone slipped. Could be something of interest there.

 

[Ixchel13]

Or confirm she wasn't maybe?

or, they could be looking for times when keys were used to open security doors, and whose keys. Hallway video, parking garage video, trash disposal video, even maintenance and security logs. Parties letting out and people going to their cars, people returning from parties going upstairs.

 

[Kadence]

Interesting. Very curious who AF is ... still wondering who that second call made from JR's was to. ???

Thanks bx2! I also wonder who AF is?!! Anyone have any ideas?