I do think it's a little problematic that JW left so quickly, given he wasn't one of the last people reportedly seen with LS. But yes, his parents could be one of the main reasons, especially if they had any residual doubt (thinking about what his mother said here) or are just on the protective side. IDK. Or maybe there's something JW didn't want to share, in order to protect himself or someone else?
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33
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Everyone is quick to play the "no cooperation" card but JR actually met with the family. That is not "no cooperation". They might not believe what he said or like what he said, but meeting with the family is not "no cooperation" even if he did have his attorney present.
And there is plenty of information in the lawsuit that had to come from the 5N defendants so there had to be some level of cooperation to get that as well.
It seems like if there is anyone not cooperating at all it would be JW based on what the PI's have said.
And there is plenty of information in the lawsuit that had to come from the 5N defendants so there had to be some level of cooperation to get that as well.
It seems like if there is anyone not cooperating at all it would be JW based on what the PI's have said.
I don't recall anyone saying there was "no cooperation". People have said they didn't fully cooperate with the investigation, which has been made clear by LE, the PIs and the Spierers from the time they all left town shortly after Lauren's disappearance. I think this goes without saying for at least JR, CR, MB and JW, since none of them have taken an LE polygraph. Beyond that, I'm not sure any of them are coming out very far ahead on the scale of who has cooperated more, but I would think that Corey, who hasn't taken a poly, spoken to the Spierers or the investigators and has "amnesia" wouldn't be very high on the list.
Ixchel13
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just want to insert that LE has said JR admitted that two calls were made, but they have never said only two calls were made. And, have they ever mentioned any incoming calls? conveniently not.
also about calls--calls not answered are not the same as calls not received. You can look at your phone, find out who's calling, and not answer. But then, you can pick up the phone and call someone else, or tell someone who's there with you someone called and then they could call someone.
in fact, there's countless ways just those two unanswered calls could have gone.
for example, what if one of the questions put to DR on his poly was,"did you call anyone after not answering the call from JR?"
and then there's the mystery guy called supposedly last--why is he a mystery when everyone else has been named? possibly houseguest #2, and this would tie him in as having been with lauren at a party hours before she disappeared.
IDK, just those two calls, doubtful.
also about calls--calls not answered are not the same as calls not received. You can look at your phone, find out who's calling, and not answer. But then, you can pick up the phone and call someone else, or tell someone who's there with you someone called and then they could call someone.
in fact, there's countless ways just those two unanswered calls could have gone.
for example, what if one of the questions put to DR on his poly was,"did you call anyone after not answering the call from JR?"
and then there's the mystery guy called supposedly last--why is he a mystery when everyone else has been named? possibly houseguest #2, and this would tie him in as having been with lauren at a party hours before she disappeared.
IDK, just those two calls, doubtful.
You've said this before, but I can't figure out the point. Calculating what? Is the insinuation that his arrival is somehow too early in relation to the time Lauren was reported missing? JW knew Lauren was missing around noon on Friday. She was reported missing officially that afternoon. Both the Spierers and JW's dad arrived sometime over the next day or two. AFAIK, we don't know what time, but even if he arrived Sat. morning, what would be remarkable about this timeline? The flight is ~ 2 hours.
I think it's fair to say that each of the 4 main POI could have easily had a motive, regardless of whatever one may think at the moment.
For me, I still have too many questions about the 3 at 5N to focus too much attention on JW just yet, who was not witnessed by anyone or caught on video anywhere near the vicinity (at least, from what is publicly known). No need to get too hung up on that - it's JMO at the moment. I do think it's possible he could have been angry, but her description sounds pretty bad and she had already hit her head twice IIRC and had a bruised eye - I just don't think he would have attacked her physically in that condition or not gotten her help if needed. I could be wrong though.
That being said, I am becoming more open to the idea that not ALL three are involved in what may have happened. Although CR is the only one who has publicly been associated with wanting to hook up with LS, I don't think it is impossible to imagine that MB or JR might have also been interested if given the opportunity. If CR truly passed out, that would give both MB and JR the opportunity to corner LS alone at different points.
I do wonder if JR was interested - especially if LS was having problems with JW. She had only just met CR, but she met him at the Indy 500, where JR also was present, and she was going to JR's party that night. I wonder if it was JR who invited her over? I still get the feeling that a sexual assault is a very possible scenario. <modsnip> Maybe he has a type? I don't think it's farfetched to think he may have been attracted to her. If he was drunk/high, maybe it's even more likely that he would have been aggressive with her. I wonder if MB saw the black eye, or if it was only JR? I question whether JR would admit she had a black eye if he somehow caused it, but maybe he was trying to pin it on the earlier falls in case she was found.
That being said, I haven't shut the door on all 3 being involved in some way. Even if something happened like the above scenario, I would think MB could give more information and at minimum suspects that things didn't go down like JR has stated. Then again, if LS really walked out the door, there would be nothing stopping either CR or MB from catching up with her (or her backtracking to them, since she never made it on video). It seems like MB and JR have kept up with each other pretty well from some of their public profiles. Maybe MB would cover for JR? I'm not as sure about CR though? IDK, I still think MB is key - IMO, he either is involved, knows what happened because someone told him, knows CR wasn't sleeping and could have left, LS backtracked, or he has serious doubts about what other POIs, like JR, have said.
JMO.
ETA: Another thought on JR - I think it's interesting that he is the one who insinuated that DR and LS took cocaine and klonopin earlier in the night. DR was supposedly the most forthcoming and the Spierers have stated they have no information on the cocaine - I'm assuming this might mean that DR admitted to klonopin but not the cocaine. Has it ever been stated that DR and LS may have done this at 5N, or is that why DR initially accompanied her to JR's - they did it there, JR provided it (or someone else at JR's party), and that is how JR knows?
For me, I still have too many questions about the 3 at 5N to focus too much attention on JW just yet, who was not witnessed by anyone or caught on video anywhere near the vicinity (at least, from what is publicly known). No need to get too hung up on that - it's JMO at the moment. I do think it's possible he could have been angry, but her description sounds pretty bad and she had already hit her head twice IIRC and had a bruised eye - I just don't think he would have attacked her physically in that condition or not gotten her help if needed. I could be wrong though.
That being said, I am becoming more open to the idea that not ALL three are involved in what may have happened. Although CR is the only one who has publicly been associated with wanting to hook up with LS, I don't think it is impossible to imagine that MB or JR might have also been interested if given the opportunity. If CR truly passed out, that would give both MB and JR the opportunity to corner LS alone at different points.
I do wonder if JR was interested - especially if LS was having problems with JW. She had only just met CR, but she met him at the Indy 500, where JR also was present, and she was going to JR's party that night. I wonder if it was JR who invited her over? I still get the feeling that a sexual assault is a very possible scenario. <modsnip> Maybe he has a type? I don't think it's farfetched to think he may have been attracted to her. If he was drunk/high, maybe it's even more likely that he would have been aggressive with her. I wonder if MB saw the black eye, or if it was only JR? I question whether JR would admit she had a black eye if he somehow caused it, but maybe he was trying to pin it on the earlier falls in case she was found.
That being said, I haven't shut the door on all 3 being involved in some way. Even if something happened like the above scenario, I would think MB could give more information and at minimum suspects that things didn't go down like JR has stated. Then again, if LS really walked out the door, there would be nothing stopping either CR or MB from catching up with her (or her backtracking to them, since she never made it on video). It seems like MB and JR have kept up with each other pretty well from some of their public profiles. Maybe MB would cover for JR? I'm not as sure about CR though? IDK, I still think MB is key - IMO, he either is involved, knows what happened because someone told him, knows CR wasn't sleeping and could have left, LS backtracked, or he has serious doubts about what other POIs, like JR, have said.
JMO.
ETA: Another thought on JR - I think it's interesting that he is the one who insinuated that DR and LS took cocaine and klonopin earlier in the night. DR was supposedly the most forthcoming and the Spierers have stated they have no information on the cocaine - I'm assuming this might mean that DR admitted to klonopin but not the cocaine. Has it ever been stated that DR and LS may have done this at 5N, or is that why DR initially accompanied her to JR's - they did it there, JR provided it (or someone else at JR's party), and that is how JR knows?
Ixchel13
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About JW's dad, i think the point is clear, they were calculating how much time it took him to get here. <modsnip>
It never occurred to me to do the calculating, but I can definitely see the validity. <modsnip> Why would the dad skedaddle here as fast as he could? But people were calculating before this info came out about how the Wolffs felt about her though.
So, it must also mean something to LE. We know LE always looks at the bf. It's a given. Usually, it's easy to either clear them or place them as a suspect right away.
JW has been placed as a suspect. He is allowed to be sleuthed here even if it makespeople uncomfortable.
Whatever the Spierers might have felt about him changed. They allowed their PI to go public both in print and on video saying that JW lied about his whereabouts, and to also hint by saying "and all that" that he has possibly lied about other things they aren't revealing just yet. IMO, he is not just a POI by boyfriend default, but a bona fide POI, and IMO, his dad's actions helped solidify this standing.
The same goes for Zoe Camp. She inserted herself back into the investigation by saying in an article that she could "shed some light" about the night Lauren disappeared, then proceeded to do no such thing, only to defend the POIs. She
admits to feeling remorseful, and wonders that if she only had opened her door
would Lauren have been ok. Duh, Zoe.
Lauren's disappearance must be a huge, inconvenient bummer to these POIs.
They can't just go about their lives like nothing happened. People like us are keeping that guilt alive, because that's what the Spierers vowed to do until they get answers. They are doing exactly what any of the parents of the POIs would do
if their kid went missing from this crowd.
These POIs are not from the income sector where having this over their heads will cause them to become homeless because they can't get a job. They're rich!
The Spierers have actually had some criticism because they have the $$$ to keep
Lauren in "the limelight" and other missing girls don't have that luxury. But how many cases are there where the POIs have just as much, if not a helluva lot, more $$$ to keep themselves out of "the limelight"?
POIs can and will be vetted here until they are cleared unless the mods say otherwise. Including their interactions with other POIs.:jail:
It never occurred to me to do the calculating, but I can definitely see the validity. <modsnip> Why would the dad skedaddle here as fast as he could? But people were calculating before this info came out about how the Wolffs felt about her though.
So, it must also mean something to LE. We know LE always looks at the bf. It's a given. Usually, it's easy to either clear them or place them as a suspect right away.
JW has been placed as a suspect. He is allowed to be sleuthed here even if it makespeople uncomfortable.
Whatever the Spierers might have felt about him changed. They allowed their PI to go public both in print and on video saying that JW lied about his whereabouts, and to also hint by saying "and all that" that he has possibly lied about other things they aren't revealing just yet. IMO, he is not just a POI by boyfriend default, but a bona fide POI, and IMO, his dad's actions helped solidify this standing.
The same goes for Zoe Camp. She inserted herself back into the investigation by saying in an article that she could "shed some light" about the night Lauren disappeared, then proceeded to do no such thing, only to defend the POIs. She
admits to feeling remorseful, and wonders that if she only had opened her door
would Lauren have been ok. Duh, Zoe.
Lauren's disappearance must be a huge, inconvenient bummer to these POIs.
They can't just go about their lives like nothing happened. People like us are keeping that guilt alive, because that's what the Spierers vowed to do until they get answers. They are doing exactly what any of the parents of the POIs would do
if their kid went missing from this crowd.
These POIs are not from the income sector where having this over their heads will cause them to become homeless because they can't get a job. They're rich!
The Spierers have actually had some criticism because they have the $$$ to keep
Lauren in "the limelight" and other missing girls don't have that luxury. But how many cases are there where the POIs have just as much, if not a helluva lot, more $$$ to keep themselves out of "the limelight"?
POIs can and will be vetted here until they are cleared unless the mods say otherwise. Including their interactions with other POIs.:jail:
Good points, Sammi, about the different possible scenarios involving one or more of the guys at 5 N.
I also agree that MB's role seems key here, since it raises so many questions. I just can't imagine a logical scenario where he simply dropped Lauren off at JR's and had nothing to hide, that would account for the conflicting accounts and omissions from his story.
It's not hard to think of scenarios that could account for MB covering for CR/JR though...
- There have been numerous cases posted about here involving groups of seemingly normal people who collectively make horrible decisions. Even the decision to stand by and do nothing can result in manslaughter charges (as in the case of the overdose of Griffen Kramer, which I've posted about a few times in the past)
- Then there's the possibility more than one person was involved in sexual assault and/or providing drugs
- Or that more than one person was involved, assisted with, or knew about how Lauren left 5 N
Chances are, whoever took Lauren did so in car. I think this is probably one of the most important and obvious parts of the puzzle, and likely the one that whoever is responsible is the most worried about, since we know that LE has video surveillance of cars that were coming and going in the area that morning. I have a feeling that once Lauren is found, it will turn out that LE has a lot more evidence than we know about that will become relevant. JMO
I also agree that MB's role seems key here, since it raises so many questions. I just can't imagine a logical scenario where he simply dropped Lauren off at JR's and had nothing to hide, that would account for the conflicting accounts and omissions from his story.
It's not hard to think of scenarios that could account for MB covering for CR/JR though...
- There have been numerous cases posted about here involving groups of seemingly normal people who collectively make horrible decisions. Even the decision to stand by and do nothing can result in manslaughter charges (as in the case of the overdose of Griffen Kramer, which I've posted about a few times in the past)
- Then there's the possibility more than one person was involved in sexual assault and/or providing drugs
- Or that more than one person was involved, assisted with, or knew about how Lauren left 5 N
Chances are, whoever took Lauren did so in car. I think this is probably one of the most important and obvious parts of the puzzle, and likely the one that whoever is responsible is the most worried about, since we know that LE has video surveillance of cars that were coming and going in the area that morning. I have a feeling that once Lauren is found, it will turn out that LE has a lot more evidence than we know about that will become relevant. JMO
Re: 5N POIs leaving Bloomington, I kind of remember reading that one of the POIs, either CR or JR I think?, had a previous scheduled court date pending (from non-related event) within a short time frame after LS disappearance. Date was either for June or July. I recall thinking media may be in court because of LS event, but then nothing noteworthy occurred. Maybe the date changed or dismissed.
Are you thinking of DR? He had a few court dates just after Lauren disappeared for an unrelated issue, I believe.
Edited to add: He had missed a court date May 27, which led to a warrant for his arrest June 5, and court date July 14 (for a public intox. charge) http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.327394.sto
According to that article I posted earlier though (about CR and MB leaving town), he had left Bloomington and was back home by June 16th too.
Thanks Abbey, it could be the court scenario I was remembering, but gee, I was thinking it was one of the 5Ns. Your article just mentioned had more details than I recall (missed May date). But this was all new when LS first went missing, the players were all new to us in early June. Regardless, they did not stick around Bloomington.
I agree about MB being a key here, as he links CR being with her and JR being with her. I also wonder if DB isn't one as well. He was allegedly sleeping at JR's when LS arrived. But do you really think he would have stayed asleep all the while she was there? I can't imagine that ... unless he was passed out, too.
Also, I'm totally with you on the klonopin/coke questioning. If LS did klonopin with DR, you'd think it would have come up in questioning and the polygraph. Maybe she did take or was given coke later/elsewhere? IMO, LS doing klonopin with DR doesn't seem like it would cause a stir, unless there was concern about the source. But add in coke here, alcohol there ...
Ixchel13
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"Hadar Tamir, Spierer's roommate at Smallwood Plaza apartments, on Monday filled in more details of that morning, saying Spierer was hanging out with her until 12:30 a.m., then went with another Smallwood resident, David Rohn, to friend Jay Rosenbaum's apartment up the street.
Spierer, Rohn and Rosenbaum watched a basketball game at Rosenbaum's, said Tamir, who is friends with Rohn and Rosenbaum. They were joined there by Corey Rossman, who lives two doors down, she said. Tamir said Mike Beth, Rossman's roommate, was also there.
A while later, Rossman and Spierer went to a bar, Tamir said, and Rohn returned to Smallwood."
http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...r-activities-before-vanishingodyssey=nav|head
^^found this on another forum that rhymes with "lock forum"
for some reason, when we think of the guy they called, the mystery guy, that Lauren had been watching the game with earlier, we think they were calling SW. But this article claims Lauren was watching the game at Jay's. But, David Rohn is seen on camera returning right after walking Lauren up there. So, right here is an example of her friends stories not matching up, not just the POIs. Plus, game was over by 12:30.
IMO, one of JR's guests must have been at large and they tried to call him, so they say, but why? IMO, the mystery guy is one of the house guests and they are
(weakly) alibiing him as not being present, while the other one is alibied as being asleep. This makes me wonder which chick is alibiing this mystery man. Lauren did stop off on the way to 5N and try to get in an apt that had, how many ghirls living in it? 4? 5?
Spierer, Rohn and Rosenbaum watched a basketball game at Rosenbaum's, said Tamir, who is friends with Rohn and Rosenbaum. They were joined there by Corey Rossman, who lives two doors down, she said. Tamir said Mike Beth, Rossman's roommate, was also there.
A while later, Rossman and Spierer went to a bar, Tamir said, and Rohn returned to Smallwood."
http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...r-activities-before-vanishingodyssey=nav|head
^^found this on another forum that rhymes with "lock forum"
for some reason, when we think of the guy they called, the mystery guy, that Lauren had been watching the game with earlier, we think they were calling SW. But this article claims Lauren was watching the game at Jay's. But, David Rohn is seen on camera returning right after walking Lauren up there. So, right here is an example of her friends stories not matching up, not just the POIs. Plus, game was over by 12:30.
IMO, one of JR's guests must have been at large and they tried to call him, so they say, but why? IMO, the mystery guy is one of the house guests and they are
(weakly) alibiing him as not being present, while the other one is alibied as being asleep. This makes me wonder which chick is alibiing this mystery man. Lauren did stop off on the way to 5N and try to get in an apt that had, how many ghirls living in it? 4? 5?
doubtingthomas
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Just days after the disappearance, Wolff and his father barged into Rossman and Beth’s apartment, investigators learned.
Jesse Wolff was confrontational, and Beth said he broke up a potential fight.
“I hope you rot in jail!” Wolff is said to have shouted as he left.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/
What is it that JW knows to assume that CR has done something criminally wrong to LS to think he is going to end up in jail?
Jesse Wolff was confrontational, and Beth said he broke up a potential fight.
“I hope you rot in jail!” Wolff is said to have shouted as he left.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/
What is it that JW knows to assume that CR has done something criminally wrong to LS to think he is going to end up in jail?
doubtingthomas
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Alan Wolff said his son, Jesse, was texting him from his house the previous night as a Knicks basketball playoff game was under way on television. He said his son was texting, back and forth, with Spierer that night and that "she indicated to him that she was home and going to sleep." He texted to her that "if you wake up, call me and we'll talk." Then he went to bed, the father said.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/
According to Tamir, Spierer's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, had been planning to get together with her that night. But he couldn't reach her, nor she him, because she had left her phone at the bar.
http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...-activities-before-vanishing?odyssey=nav|head
So JW's dad is saying JW told him, via text, that LS was staying home and going to sleep. HT is saying that JW was planning on getting together with LS that night. So if LS told him she was staying home and going to sleep why would he think they were getting together later?
I first thought that LS might have left her phone at the bar because she was to intoxicated to remember it. But what if, since the game ended at 12:30 and JW didn't go to sleep until 2:30, he was texting her for two hours and CR thought she was being bothered by JW's texting and took her phone away from her. They both left forgetting about the phone on the bar. Just my opinion thinking out loud.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/
According to Tamir, Spierer's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, had been planning to get together with her that night. But he couldn't reach her, nor she him, because she had left her phone at the bar.
http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...-activities-before-vanishing?odyssey=nav|head
So JW's dad is saying JW told him, via text, that LS was staying home and going to sleep. HT is saying that JW was planning on getting together with LS that night. So if LS told him she was staying home and going to sleep why would he think they were getting together later?
I first thought that LS might have left her phone at the bar because she was to intoxicated to remember it. But what if, since the game ended at 12:30 and JW didn't go to sleep until 2:30, he was texting her for two hours and CR thought she was being bothered by JW's texting and took her phone away from her. They both left forgetting about the phone on the bar. Just my opinion thinking out loud.
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