IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[Wondering Aloud]

Two things I was struck by today in my readings.

First, if ZO and party hadn't 'intervened' at smallwood, Lauren may very well not be missing. They were on her floor, but had not yet been to her apartment when confronted. I think one can safely assume they were on the way to her apartment. And while there has been alot of speculation to why (shoes, drugs, etc.), no one has definitively given an answer. It could be he was taking her home and the confrontation, for whatever reason, changed the course that event. And then the stop at ZC's apartment. If his intent all along was sexual in nature, wouldn't he have just taken her directly to his place. Today, I think he was trying not to take her back to his place.

Second, I reread the lawsuit today and 3:30am time given by MB seems to put to rest the bar witness. Unless she ran out when he arrived, and was then corralled back in? And if that was the case, and you know there is a witness (because you spoke to her), why wouldn't it become part of your narrative?

CR/JR did not dispute any of the Spierer's allegations in their request for dismissal. Therefore, the way I understand it, those essentially become fact. They stipulated. I assume those allegations/facts came from the Bo Dietl POI interviews. Further then, there must not be any glaring inconsistencies between what they reported to the police and what they reported to Bo. What does CS want to share but say she can't? Why can't she? Is it because of their pending appeal? Are they working on a dateline/disappeared/20/20 episode? Where are her friends? I would be screaming from the mountaintops any rumor I ever heard. They never did that. Sometimes I get the impression the Spierer's don't think the CR/JR/MB had anything to do with her actual disappearance, just that they did not take care of her, sometimes I don't.

In my time at IU, some nights I was Lauren, some nights, one of my friends was. Our parents were lucky, we all made it out safely. I may take a break from time to time, but I will always come back to this case until it is SOLVED.

 

[imkeylime]

Two things I was struck by today in my readings.

First, if ZO and party hadn't 'intervened' at smallwood, Lauren may very well not be missing. They were on her floor, but had not yet been to her apartment when confronted. I think one can safely assume they were on the way to her apartment. And while there has been alot of speculation to why (shoes, drugs, etc.), no one has definitively given an answer. It could be he was taking her home and the confrontation, for whatever reason, changed the course that event. And then the stop at ZC's apartment. If his intent all along was sexual in nature, wouldn't he have just taken her directly to his place. Today, I think he was trying not to take her back to his place.

Second, I reread the lawsuit today and 3:30am time given by MB seems to put to rest the bar witness. Unless she ran out when he arrived, and was then corralled back in? And if that was the case, and you know there is a witness (because you spoke to her), why wouldn't it become part of your narrative?

CR/JR did not dispute any of the Spierer's allegations in their request for dismissal. Therefore, the way I understand it, those essentially become fact. They stipulated. I assume those allegations/facts came from the Bo Dietl POI interviews. Further then, there must not be any glaring inconsistencies between what they reported to the police and what they reported to Bo. What does CS want to share but say she can't? Why can't she? Is it because of their pending appeal? Are they working on a dateline/disappeared/20/20 episode? Where are her friends? I would be screaming from the mountaintops any rumor I ever heard. They never did that. Sometimes I get the impression the Spierer's don't think the CR/JR/MB had anything to do with her actual disappearance, just that they did not take care of her, sometimes I don't.

In my time at IU, some nights I was Lauren, some nights, one of my friends was. Our parents were lucky, we all made it out safely. I may take a break from time to time, but I will always come back to this case until it is SOLVED.

That's an interesting thought about ZO and Co. I've always thought of it the other way around, i.e., if CR had just taken her home, things would be much different. But it's true that he might have been able to (and she might have stayed) if not for the interruption.

You raise good points about what CS does or doesn't believe based on things we possibly don't know about. We recently discussed LS' jewelry here. I definitely don't think the POIs would have disposed of LS' jewelry. So asking people to keep an eye out for that suggests to me that a random abduction is still a possibility. But I still think the POIs are the primary focus.

 

[Wondering Aloud]

That's an interesting thought about ZO and Co. I've always thought of it the other way around, i.e., if CR had just taken her home, things would be much different. But it's true that he might have been able to (and she might have stayed) if not for the interruption.

Me too. That is exactly why I shared. While RS is probably correct that had she never met CR, she would still be here, the two stops that were made that night seem to contradict a sexual motive from CR. i.e. he slipped something in her drink at Kilroy's. But for me, CR has already been cleared by MB and JR.

 

[imkeylime]

That's an interesting thought about ZO and Co. I've always thought of it the other way around, i.e., if CR had just taken her home, things would be much different. But it's true that he might have been able to (and she might have stayed) if not for the interruption.

Me too. That is exactly why I shared. While RS is probably correct that had she never met CR, she would still be here, the two stops that were made that night seem to contradict a sexual motive from CR. i.e. he slipped something in her drink at Kilroy's. But for me, CR has already been cleared by MB and JR.

While I suspect that CR may have wanted to hook up with LS, that in itself doesn't mean he slipped anything in her drink. It seems like there were opportunities for her to be under the influence of some substance and alcohol earlier in the night. However, helping her drink alcohol at Sports surely didn't do her any favors, nor did leaving SW with her, regardless of the reason. That said, I agree that MB and JR provide a strange alibi of sorts for CR, as I don't know why they'd stick their necks out if he solely was involved.

Also, I do think that the hit at SW, in combination with whatever he himself took or drank that night, might have lead him to pass out back at 5N. It's the amnesia that I don't buy into. I think it's convenient for him to forget what happened that night. Maybe it's a "I'll protect your back if you protect mine" thing? Regardless, I think he and most likely MB could help solve this case if they wanted to.

 

[Ixchel13]

Two things I was struck by today in my readings.

First, if ZO and party hadn't 'intervened' at smallwood, Lauren may very well not be missing. They were on her floor, but had not yet been to her apartment when confronted. I think one can safely assume they were on the way to her apartment. And while there has been alot of speculation to why (shoes, drugs, etc.), no one has definitively given an answer. It could be he was taking her home and the confrontation, for whatever reason, changed the course that event. And then the stop at ZC's apartment. If his intent all along was sexual in nature, wouldn't he have just taken her directly to his place. Today, I think he was trying not to take her back to his place.

Second, I reread the lawsuit today and 3:30am time given by MB seems to put to rest the bar witness. Unless she ran out when he arrived, and was then corralled back in? And if that was the case, and you know there is a witness (because you spoke to her), why wouldn't it become part of your narrative?

CR/JR did not dispute any of the Spierer's allegations in their request for dismissal. Therefore, the way I understand it, those essentially become fact. They stipulated. I assume those allegations/facts came from the Bo Dietl POI interviews. Further then, there must not be any glaring inconsistencies between what they reported to the police and what they reported to Bo. What does CS want to share but say she can't? Why can't she? Is it because of their pending appeal? Are they working on a dateline/disappeared/20/20 episode? Where are her friends? I would be screaming from the mountaintops any rumor I ever heard. They never did that. Sometimes I get the impression the Spierer's don't think the CR/JR/MB had anything to do with her actual disappearance, just that they did not take care of her, sometimes I don't.

In my time at IU, some nights I was Lauren, some nights, one of my friends was. Our parents were lucky, we all made it out safely. I may take a break from time to time, but I will always come back to this case until it is SOLVED.

goosebumps you gave me

 

[Ixchel13]

While I suspect that CR may have wanted to hook up with LS, that in itself doesn't mean he slipped anything in her drink. It seems like there were opportunities for her to be under the influence of some substance and alcohol earlier in the night. However, helping her drink alcohol at Sports surely didn't do her any favors, nor did leaving SW with her, regardless of the reason. That said, I agree that MB and JR provide a strange alibi of sorts for CR, as I don't know why they'd stick their necks out if he solely was involved.

Also, I do think that the hit at SW, in combination with whatever he himself took or drank that night, might have lead him to pass out back at 5N. It's the amnesia that I don't buy into. I think it's convenient for him to forget what happened that night. Maybe it's a "I'll protect your back if you protect mine" thing? Regardless, I think he and most likely MB could help solve this case if they wanted to.

I agree, I think his amnesia is so NOT to contradict the end story in any way, kind of a trade off to skip out of trouble

 

[jamicat]

CR/JR did not need to dispute any of the allegations as the point of the entire thing was that the Spiers had no ground that would stand up i court to pursue their actions. It would be arguing things beside the point to even respond tho those allegations. The point is that the suit should be thrown out. Bringing in extra verbiage would detract from that goal. And they did succeed in what they wanted to do.

I don't understand why Spierers are not suing the bar that threw their daughter out--bars do have some responsibility to their inebriated patrons. I think they are spot on that none of those young men with her did a thing to help her, call the police, roommates, parents, college, anyone when she was in such bad shape. And that does include the gang with ZO. It made no sense that CR went to Smallwood with Lauren, and then just left, other than the fact that the punch he took made him feel badly enough that he felt he had to go home. Lauren could have just left and gone to her apt at that time. She was in her own building. CR has said he has no memory of what happened due to the punch , and it's my inclination to believe that he has no clear memory or sure memory after it, due not only to the blow he took, but because he was already drunk and may under the influence of drugs at the time. It makes no sense for him to try to figure out what happened, given the condition he was in, though I doubt he has zero memory. Mixed up memory and unreliable memory is more like it. Better to leave it go. The fact of the matter is that his time with Lauren is not so important anyways, as it's pretty much established that she was alive after gettting to JR's place after leaving Smallwood. All that happened enroute to JR's place is not what is the issue. It's what the heck happened AFTER she got there.

Unless the Spierers could prove that JR and CR gave Lauren illegal substances, it's a waste of their time to sue. And there has been no such proof. They were messed up too. It is clear that Lauren was in bad shape when she got to JR's and CR was in bad shape too. At the time in the morning she got to JR's it's not likely he was thinking clearly either.

As for the area around IU, many colleges in hot competition for that top spot each year The kids I know who went to IU around that time that Lauren was there, and I do know a number, say that the party scenes in FL and other beaches, as well as the NYC drug scene are all way more intense. Everything Lauren and those men did that night was so typical of the students lives there. The thing that is unusual is that Lauren disappeared. Usually all of these things resolve themselves. Lauren's roomate's reaction to her being missing was that Lauren had gone too far this time--it was not big news that she did not come back at night, that she got wasted. Just that she did not make it home before she was noticed missing. Something else happened, and though we can all speculate, there isn't an iota of proof anyone can put on anyone's head.

 

[Wondering Aloud]

CR/JR did not need to dispute any of the allegations as the point of the entire thing was that the Spiers had no ground that would stand up i court to pursue their actions. It would be arguing things beside the point to even respond tho those allegations. The point is that the suit should be thrown out. Bringing in extra verbiage would detract from that goal. And they did succeed in what they wanted to do.

I don't understand why Spierers are not suing the bar that threw their daughter out--bars do have some responsibility to their inebriated patrons. I think they are spot on that none of those young men with her did a thing to help her, call the police, roommates, parents, college, anyone when she was in such bad shape. And that does include the gang with ZO. It made no sense that CR went to Smallwood with Lauren, and then just left, other than the fact that the punch he took made him feel badly enough that he felt he had to go home. Lauren could have just left and gone to her apt at that time. She was in her own building. CR has said he has no memory of what happened due to the punch , and it's my inclination to believe that he has no clear memory or sure memory after it, due not only to the blow he took, but because he was already drunk and may under the influence of drugs at the time. It makes no sense for him to try to figure out what happened, given the condition he was in, though I doubt he has zero memory. Mixed up memory and unreliable memory is more like it. Better to leave it go. The fact of the matter is that his time with Lauren is not so important anyways, as it's pretty much established that she was alive after gettting to JR's place after leaving Smallwood. All that happened enroute to JR's place is not what is the issue. It's what the heck happened AFTER she got there.

Unless the Spierers could prove that JR and CR gave Lauren illegal substances, it's a waste of their time to sue. And there has been no such proof. They were messed up too. It is clear that Lauren was in bad shape when she got to JR's and CR was in bad shape too. At the time in the morning she got to JR's it's not likely he was thinking clearly either.

As for the area around IU, many colleges in hot competition for that top spot each year The kids I know who went to IU around that time that Lauren was there, and I do know a number, say that the party scenes in FL and other beaches, as well as the NYC drug scene are all way more intense. Everything Lauren and those men did that night was so typical of the students lives there. The thing that is unusual is that Lauren disappeared. Usually all of these things resolve themselves. Lauren's roomate's reaction to her being missing was that Lauren had gone too far this time--it was not big news that she did not come back at night, that she got wasted. Just that she did not make it home before she was noticed missing. Something else happened, and though we can all speculate, there isn't an iota of proof anyone can put on anyone's head.

I am not a lawyer an as such may have read too much into this without considering the final part of the sentence: The Spierers cannot now
manufacture a question of fact by objecting to the Defendants’ stipulation to their version of the
facts in the case, which Defendants are permitted to do even if just for purposes of the summary
judgment motion. See Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(c)(1)(A).

My apologies, although, I still believe that the timeline stems from their collected interviews/videos and is the best we have to 'speculate' about.

Which brings me to the point of my response. You are right, there is no proof, or at least not enough for a prosecutor to bring charges. Also, I don't believe this case is going to be solved on Websleuths unless the guilty party uses this forum for their long awaited confession, or law enforement/spierers/dietls/friendsintheknow drops us some breadcrumbs. Unlikely, but maybe they are reading this. So, I will continue to use this forum to speculate. To think about this case out loud. To put my ideas out there. To keep it alive.

 

[Ixchel13]

I agree whole heartedly that we should continue to keep Lauren's story alive.

to Jamicat, yes, there is little evidence we are allowed by LE. But Capt. Qualters has stated in many different ways that the stories, both of POIs and witneses, do not add up. To me, this indicates he thinks they are lying.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Lauren was alive at JRs after emerging from the alley. This is hearsay from suspects, and hearsay from friends of suspects.

And suspects they remain. No amount of time can erase that until there is a confession.

 

[Ros]

Who, that night, was sober enough to dispose of a body in such a way that it would not be found within nearly four years? For a while, the story was that MB was sober, and the inconsistency of the various stories attributed to him made me focus on him. But from the lawsuit, we learned that he, too, and been drinking, and had bee out of the apartment when CR and LS arrived (rather than working on a paper). Was there anyone else who was allegedly sober besides the "random abductor" who may or may not exist?

 

[Ros]

Bones found in a plastic bag in Odon, Indiana. A gun found there too. Anthropologists called in. Hope this results in closure for a family who has been missing a loved one. http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2015/04/death-investigation-in-odon.php

 

[luckyseven]

New MSM article.

Solve It: The Mystery of Lauren Spierer
http://abcnews.go.com/US/solve-mystery-lauren-spierer/story?id=30148388

 

[imkeylime]

New MSM article.

Solve It: The Mystery of Lauren Spierer
http://abcnews.go.com/US/solve-mystery-lauren-spierer/story?id=30148388

Thanks for sharing this. After listening, I have a new thought, via Occam's Razor. What if MB or JR did indeed convince LS to sleep on the couch, where she passed away? And then someone (or everyone?) panicked. It's happened before. Do we know for certain that cadaver dogs were brought it? Or maybe they thought she'd passed and freaked out?

 

[imkeylime]

New MSM article.

Solve It: The Mystery of Lauren Spierer
http://abcnews.go.com/US/solve-mystery-lauren-spierer/story?id=30148388

Also, what do you all think about this coming from JR?

"Rosenbaum says that Lauren decided to leave, and he watched from his small balcony as she walked to the corner of 11th and North College. He told investigators that he thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept her. Lauren was never seen again, and surveillance cameras never captured any images of her on the route home."

I don't recall ever hearing that JR thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept LS. I wonder when he first made this statement. If true, it would be a game changer. But ... why didn't he do something about it at the time? Who thinks that a young woman who recently left your apartment was intercepted in the shadows and then just goes to bed? Is this something that he thinks in retrospect (that someone pulled LS into the shadows)?

 

[bluenoser]

Also, what do you all think about this coming from JR?

"Rosenbaum says that Lauren decided to leave, and he watched from his small balcony as she walked to the corner of 11th and North College. He told investigators that he thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept her. Lauren was never seen again, and surveillance cameras never captured any images of her on the route home."

I don't recall ever hearing that JR thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept LS. I wonder when he first made this statement. If true, it would be a game changer. But ... why didn't he do something about it at the time? Who thinks that a young woman who recently left your apartment was intercepted in the shadows and then just goes to bed? Is this something that he thinks in retrospect (that someone pulled LS into the shadows)?

Definetely the first I've heard of it as well! Why bother watching her walk home if you aren't going to help when something/someone happens?

 

[imkeylime]

Definetely the first I've heard of it as well! Why bother watching her walk home if you aren't going to help when something/someone happens?

Yep, IMO this is dicey. Unless under hypnosis he suddenly remembered that he saw someone lurking in the shadows, you know?

 

[akh]

Also, what do you all think about this coming from JR?

"Rosenbaum says that Lauren decided to leave, and he watched from his small balcony as she walked to the corner of 11th and North College. He told investigators that he thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept her. Lauren was never seen again, and surveillance cameras never captured any images of her on the route home."

I don't recall ever hearing that JR thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept LS. I wonder when he first made this statement. If true, it would be a game changer. But ... why didn't he do something about it at the time? Who thinks that a young woman who recently left your apartment was intercepted in the shadows and then just goes to bed? Is this something that he thinks in retrospect (that someone pulled LS into the shadows)?

This article seems pieced together from past reports and talking to experts (not a direct interview with authorities, etc). So, while it could be a a piece of the puzzle that has been kept under wraps and finally leaked after all this time, it also could be someone (mis)remembering past reports and confusing some speculation with fact.

And if it is true, 'intercepted' doesn't have to mean he thought something nefarious was happening. Considering how the PI's described MB making LS someone else's problem, JR could've thought she'd ran into a friend so he could've been glad she'd found someone or even glad to see she was someone else's problem.

Further, if this piece of the puzzle is accurate, it could very well be that LE believed it, or at the least didn't want that to be public information. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn there are significant pieces like this that have been kept from the public but known to investigators all along.

Interesting that the Spierers are refusing to talk about the appeal when during the initial hearings on the case they probably did much to damage it with their statements to the media IMHO.

 

[AbbeyR]

Also, what do you all think about this coming from JR?

"Rosenbaum says that Lauren decided to leave, and he watched from his small balcony as she walked to the corner of 11th and North College. He told investigators that he thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept her. Lauren was never seen again, and surveillance cameras never captured any images of her on the route home."

I don't recall ever hearing that JR thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept LS. I wonder when he first made this statement. If true, it would be a game changer. But ... why didn't he do something about it at the time? Who thinks that a young woman who recently left your apartment was intercepted in the shadows and then just goes to bed? Is this something that he thinks in retrospect (that someone pulled LS into the shadows)?

Interesting. In the video the investigator reiterates that JR told them this. Sounds like (yet another) attempt to point fingers elsewhere. anywhere.

Otherwise the story makes even less sense than it did to begin with. As you note, Ikl, he lets a barefoot, intoxicated girl walk home alone at 4am, but watches from the window to make sure she is okay - and does nothing when he thinks she may have been 'intercepted' by someone he can't identify in the shadows? What happened to her 'rounding the corner towards home'? Did he mention this bit of info when people were looking for her the next day? And what did he tell police? On top of video evidence not supporting his claim that Lauren made it to the corner, if he claimed to see another person (who also didn't appear on video) this may have raised red flags with investigators.

 

[AbbeyR]

First, if ZO and party hadn't 'intervened' at smallwood, Lauren may very well not be missing. They were on her floor, but had not yet been to her apartment when confronted. I think one can safely assume they were on the way to her apartment. And while there has been alot of speculation to why (shoes, drugs, etc.), no one has definitively given an answer. It could be he was taking her home and the confrontation, for whatever reason, changed the course that event. And then the stop at ZC's apartment. If his intent all along was sexual in nature, wouldn't he have just taken her directly to his place. Today, I think he was trying not to take her back to his place.

In the latest video, the investigator says CR and LS were waiting for the elevator on the 5th floor, when ZO and friends told CR he should take her home. This suggests he was not taking her home. In any case, it doesn't matter whether that encounter changed where he was trying to take her - he could have left her at Smallwood. Instead, he dragged her back to his place.

It made no sense that CR went to Smallwood with Lauren, and then just left, other than the fact that the punch he took made him feel badly enough that he felt he had to go home. Lauren could have just left and gone to her apt at that time. She was in her own building.

She was described as being unable to walk or speak coherently. Video shows CR picking her up and taking her out of the building. It doesn't seem she was mentally or physically capable of just going on her own back to her apartment.

 

[imkeylime]

Interesting. In the video the investigator reiterates that JR told them this. Sounds like (yet another) attempt to point fingers elsewhere. anywhere.

Otherwise the story makes even less sense than it did to begin with. As you note, Ikl, he lets a barefoot, intoxicated girl walk home alone at 4am, but watches from the window to make sure she is okay - and does nothing when he thinks she may have been 'intercepted' by someone he can't identify in the shadows? What happened to her 'rounding the corner towards home'? Did he mention this bit of info when people were looking for her the next day? And what did he tell police? On top of video evidence not supporting his claim that Lauren made it to the corner, if he claimed to see another person (who also didn't appear on video) this may have raised red flags with investigators.

Yes, I'm thinking that this where the "inconsistencies" that the PIs have noted come in. It's dicey to say the least. Put it this way: If he saw someone intercept her from the shadows after she rounded the corner, he was either following her or has x-ray vision, IMO. And if (a huge if, I know) he indeed saw this at 4ish in the morning and didn't check it out ... who does that? He would have even been close enough to call out, I'd think.