IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

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Or maybe the BPD doesn't have anything substantial. They have told 'us' several times they are no closer to solving this, than they were on day 1. I am starting to believe them.

I think everyone hopes they are holding things close to the vest, but now I am not so sure. Give us your working theory. You don't have to name names. Just a general, we think based on our best evidence..........fill in the blank. At this point, what is there to lose (I'll take opinions on this)? As she has not been found, It seems the only thing that is going to solve this case is pressure, and they aren't exerting any. The old adage 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' comes to mind. Maybe that will change when the FBI agent gets his show aired, I hope it does.

And some food for thought. DM, a local lifetime resident and a seasoned criminal who had been to prison for violence against women, dumps the body where it can apparently be seen from the road and can't even manage to clean up his car in the 12-16 hours after he committed a murder, but 1 or more weathly spoiled rich college kids from the east coast committed the perfect crime (I mean disposing of a body, not murder) after a night of heavy partying?

I don't think they've ever said they weren't any closer to solving this as they were on day one (as far as I recall anyway)... although, until they arrested DM, I've been very inclined to believe they mostly have nothing.

DM could be a red herring, but he also has the potential to be a big break in that he seemingly fits the profile of someone who would abduct and kill a young woman. And has now done it from the same general area. Of course we don't know how random this really was or what led up to this.

But prior to this I think LE has mostly been befuddled. We've seen no real activity in the case in quite some time. There have been no leaks of substance. For 5N to be guilty as a group you are asking a lot of college kids to so successfully pull off a crime of this nature. As I've always said, with the general theories that paint them as guilty you have a ground zero where the crime occurred. Which means LE knew exactly where to look for forensic evidence. They also knew where to look for security footage of their vehicles, track their cell phones, etc and under a narrow window of time that would matter. And you had multiple people that not only needed to keep their story straight but not crack under pressure (be it internal or external pressure).
They might've found something and be holding it close to their vest, but it clearly isn't enough they feel they can act upon it.

With JW considered, you need to be able to break his alibi and then connect him and LS that morning. It begins to add randomness to the scenario because there's no longer a ground zero with which the crime took place. But it also means LE should be able to track his movements that morning as well. You'd think anything unusual in any of their movements would be the leverage LE needs.

Now we have DM in the picture. Once again, there is the randomness of the crime scene in this scenario so that LE never had a particular ground zero to search for forensic evidence. You wouldn't think this guy was even on their radar at all back then.

So here we are with questions and no answers. At this point I think it's pretty obvious LE doesn't want the public's help. As the former FBI agent said in so many words, they've been very tight lipped. While it's clear they wouldn't want to jeopardize their case, I think it's good to ask "What case?".

Personally, I don't think this case is going to involve theories that tie several people together. There's not going to be low level dealers and high level drug lords called in to 'handle' anything. There are not going to be college kids blackmailing other college kids to maintain a story. The more complicated the conspiracy, the more easily unraveled it would be. At best, IMHO, you might have some people wondering about another's potential involvement but not willing to bring themself to actually say it out loud for fear they are just letting their mind run wild. Of course these are the kind of people that might talk if LE laid some cards on the table and laid out a theory or a couple of scenarios. Maybe learning their nagging suspicion actually made sense in light of some evidence, statement, or official theory would cause them to come forward once they realize they have something that might be relevant after all.

So we're back to 'why' is law enforcement so quiet. Obviously, having absolutely nothing could be one reason. But then you'd think that could also be a reason to come forward at this point just to update timelines and re-balance the narrative and talk about the bar witness statement, etc.. Of course, having the case all but figured out, but lacking the smoking gun, is another possibility. But there again, at some point you'd think they'd want to stir things up to try and shake that smoking gun loose.

I suppose the reason could be political in nature. Maybe nothing found really pointed towards the known PsOI but there was a decision made that it be better to let public suspicion look that way versus admit to the possibility there is a random abductor/serial killer loose in Bloomington stalking college hangouts. That wouldn't be good for IU enrollment.

And I'm sure there are other possible reasons stretching from preserving the development of case for trial to a fault, to extreme competence (know exactly what they are doing and are playing it perfectly for the endgame), to incompetence.
 
I don't think they've ever said they weren't any closer to solving this as they were on day one (as far as I recall anyway)... although, until they arrested DM, I've been very inclined to believe they mostly have nothing.

DM could be a red herring, but he also has the potential to be a big break in that he seemingly fits the profile of someone who would abduct and kill a young woman. And has now done it from the same general area. Of course we don't know how random this really was or what led up to this.

But prior to this I think LE has mostly been befuddled. We've seen no real activity in the case in quite some time. There have been no leaks of substance. For 5N to be guilty as a group you are asking a lot of college kids to so successfully pull off a crime of this nature. As I've always said, with the general theories that paint them as guilty you have a ground zero where the crime occurred. Which means LE knew exactly where to look for forensic evidence. They also knew where to look for security footage of their vehicles, track their cell phones, etc and under a narrow window of time that would matter. And you had multiple people that not only needed to keep their story straight but not crack under pressure (be it internal or external pressure).
They might've found something and be holding it close to their vest, but it clearly isn't enough they feel they can act upon it.

With JW considered, you need to be able to break his alibi and then connect him and LS that morning. It begins to add randomness to the scenario because there's no longer a ground zero with which the crime took place. But it also means LE should be able to track his movements that morning as well. You'd think anything unusual in any of their movements would be the leverage LE needs.

Now we have DM in the picture. Once again, there is the randomness of the crime scene in this scenario so that LE never had a particular ground zero to search for forensic evidence. You wouldn't think this guy was even on their radar at all back then.

So here we are with questions and no answers. At this point I think it's pretty obvious LE doesn't want the public's help. As the former FBI agent said in so many words, they've been very tight lipped. While it's clear they wouldn't want to jeopardize their case, I think it's good to ask "What case?".

Personally, I don't think this case is going to involve theories that tie several people together. There's not going to be low level dealers and high level drug lords called in to 'handle' anything. There are not going to be college kids blackmailing other college kids to maintain a story. The more complicated the conspiracy, the more easily unraveled it would be. At best, IMHO, you might have some people wondering about another's potential involvement but not willing to bring themself to actually say it out loud for fear they are just letting their mind run wild. Of course these are the kind of people that might talk if LE laid some cards on the table and laid out a theory or a couple of scenarios. Maybe learning their nagging suspicion actually made sense in light of some evidence, statement, or official theory would cause them to come forward once they realize they have something that might be relevant after all.

So we're back to 'why' is law enforcement so quiet. Obviously, having absolutely nothing could be one reason. But then you'd think that could also be a reason to come forward at this point just to update timelines and re-balance the narrative and talk about the bar witness statement, etc.. Of course, having the case all but figured out, but lacking the smoking gun, is another possibility. But there again, at some point you'd think they'd want to stir things up to try and shake that smoking gun loose.

I suppose the reason could be political in nature. Maybe nothing found really pointed towards the known PsOI but there was a decision made that it be better to let public suspicion look that way versus admit to the possibility there is a random abductor/serial killer loose in Bloomington stalking college hangouts. That wouldn't be good for IU enrollment.

And I'm sure there are other possible reasons stretching from preserving the development of case for trial to a fault, to extreme competence (know exactly what they are doing and are playing it perfectly for the endgame), to incompetence.

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/24/news.933361.sto

I generalized from memory.

It's the last question in the last press conference. Reporter: Do you have better idea of what happened to Lauren than you did 3 weeks ago? Qualters: No

There isn't much from the BPD after this last presser. Standard 'we continue to investigate tips as they come in' statements. Acknowledgement of apartment searches. Stated nothing of use found in landfill. Other than that, pretty much nada. And while the PI's gave us a little more context and grit, they haven't given anything either. Except maybe putting JW back on the table after the Spierer's had essentially taken him off during the interview to fox news.

Thank you akh, for always oddly being in my head and succinctly sharing: what I type and then delete because my version is rambling.
 
I don't think they've ever said they weren't any closer to solving this as they were on day one (as far as I recall anyway)... although, until they arrested DM, I've been very inclined to believe they mostly have nothing.

DM could be a red herring, but he also has the potential to be a big break in that he seemingly fits the profile of someone who would abduct and kill a young woman. And has now done it from the same general area. Of course we don't know how random this really was or what led up to this.

But prior to this I think LE has mostly been befuddled. We've seen no real activity in the case in quite some time. There have been no leaks of substance. For 5N to be guilty as a group you are asking a lot of college kids to so successfully pull off a crime of this nature. As I've always said, with the general theories that paint them as guilty you have a ground zero where the crime occurred. Which means LE knew exactly where to look for forensic evidence. They also knew where to look for security footage of their vehicles, track their cell phones, etc and under a narrow window of time that would matter. And you had multiple people that not only needed to keep their story straight but not crack under pressure (be it internal or external pressure).
They might've found something and be holding it close to their vest, but it clearly isn't enough they feel they can act upon it.

With JW considered, you need to be able to break his alibi and then connect him and LS that morning. It begins to add randomness to the scenario because there's no longer a ground zero with which the crime took place. But it also means LE should be able to track his movements that morning as well. You'd think anything unusual in any of their movements would be the leverage LE needs.

Now we have DM in the picture. Once again, there is the randomness of the crime scene in this scenario so that LE never had a particular ground zero to search for forensic evidence. You wouldn't think this guy was even on their radar at all back then.

So here we are with questions and no answers. At this point I think it's pretty obvious LE doesn't want the public's help. As the former FBI agent said in so many words, they've been very tight lipped. While it's clear they wouldn't want to jeopardize their case, I think it's good to ask "What case?".

Personally, I don't think this case is going to involve theories that tie several people together. There's not going to be low level dealers and high level drug lords called in to 'handle' anything. There are not going to be college kids blackmailing other college kids to maintain a story. The more complicated the conspiracy, the more easily unraveled it would be. At best, IMHO, you might have some people wondering about another's potential involvement but not willing to bring themself to actually say it out loud for fear they are just letting their mind run wild. Of course these are the kind of people that might talk if LE laid some cards on the table and laid out a theory or a couple of scenarios. Maybe learning their nagging suspicion actually made sense in light of some evidence, statement, or official theory would cause them to come forward once they realize they have something that might be relevant after all.

So we're back to 'why' is law enforcement so quiet. Obviously, having absolutely nothing could be one reason. But then you'd think that could also be a reason to come forward at this point just to update timelines and re-balance the narrative and talk about the bar witness statement, etc.. Of course, having the case all but figured out, but lacking the smoking gun, is another possibility. But there again, at some point you'd think they'd want to stir things up to try and shake that smoking gun loose.

I suppose the reason could be political in nature. Maybe nothing found really pointed towards the known PsOI but there was a decision made that it be better to let public suspicion look that way versus admit to the possibility there is a random abductor/serial killer loose in Bloomington stalking college hangouts. That wouldn't be good for IU enrollment.

And I'm sure there are other possible reasons stretching from preserving the development of case for trial to a fault, to extreme competence (know exactly what they are doing and are playing it perfectly for the endgame), to incompetence.

BBM Bloomington is a hot mess sometimes, but I highly doubt they think a serial killer is on the loose but want the public to think it's a group of rich kids who committed one crime. I can see the logic of most of your post, though.
But these aren't your average college kids. Sleuthing their various social media, you will find a group of young people who think they're above average, talk like they're above average, love witty double meanings, and above all, they're filthy rich.
Who needs a high level drug lord to clean up after them when a friend from out of town is leaving the next morning?
A friend who was present when Lauren was.
. It's not so much that they were
random college students who had to band together to get themselves out of a mess with no continuity, these guys were already buying a building together to house their start up tech businesses, and already had sold one of them.

Maybe, just maybe, the Spierers actually got what they wanted on that "fishing expedition"--medical and phone records, and when they came back with their appeal, they got a new trial based on that info and that's where these new stirrings are coming from.
 
[/B]
everyone of interest has been named except the second guy JR called, and the out of town guest. We found out the out of town guest's name through hearsay and sleuthed him. But what about the second guy called? I think he must be on the witness lists from the civil trial.
IMO, second guy called by JR must be JW. and was it a call or text? my son would always rather text than call,
texting is the new calling. So, JR calls (texts) JW. JW doesn't answer the call (text). But, he reads it. IDK...
Maybe it says something like, "Lauren's in trouble, insists on walking home, will try to keep her here until you get here.." But she doesn't want JW to get her and leaves, but
by then he's at the corner, from his house he would be walking due west on 11th and crossing College, not coming from the south on College, so he would be somewhat visible. He would want to get them off College to avoid a PI so he would try to get Lauren into one of those walkways between the houses right there at the corner and then proceed to the alley between 10th and C to walk to SW.
If she kept falling, he may have straightened her up too
roughly and she banged her head against a wall or on stairs. To me, this is when the bar witness saw them. If she were unconscious, he may have needed to pick her up and bring her back to 5N, and then pulled the others back into the fray, blaming them for an OD when it was really the head smack that killed her combined with the drugs.
In exchange for being written out of the whole mess,
CR could be forgetting that at Kilroy's he and Lauren were threatened by JW's friends and then followed to SW and attacked; forgetting who was there when they stopped at 10th and College; forgetting that his roommate gave Lauren more drugs; and forgetting that JW brought Lauren back unconscious or possibly dead and they plotted to remove her body by car out of state. By forgetting all of that, CR will also be forgetting whatever he did or whatever he was promised for forgetting. JMO, speculating, and yes, it could have been conspiracy to hide a body.
We have no idea the lengths these very wealthy people are going to to prevent their sons (daughters)
from being further questioned. But I can imagine they are
not cooperating in any way, shape or form and refusing to answer a single question unless formally charged.

This seems very complicated, and I am not sure that this could or would be likely (but I am impressed by how you put this together). I do agree that drug dealing had to be part of the equation, though; and because none of these idiots wanted to be in trouble for the drugs, everybody kept some part of the night's events to themselves. Otherwise absolutely all of Lauren's friends were merely uncaring acquaintances, and I don't believe that they ALL could be.
 
Maybe, just like Hannah Wilson, this poor girl walked into an ambush. And, maybe the bad guy is behind the drug OD theory. And, in a most cruel twist, we bought into it.
 
Sure-she could have walked into an ambush, or even some sort of accidental anything, which could technically have had nothing to do with any of the people she called friends. I think each and every one of her friends, including her roommate and boyfriend, were more concerned about protecting themselves and their own futures, than they were about finding Lauren-and I am appalled to think this could be true, and think they all have information about drugs she took and alcohol she drank. Drug dealing in college is nothing new, and I think that finding Lauren, if these kids truly did not know what happened, was nowhere near the highest priority. Having said that, I actually think at least a few of the POIs do know what happened to her, and where she is now. I don't think her case is related to the latest one, since Hannah was found relatively easily
 
Maybe, just like Hannah Wilson, this poor girl walked into an ambush. And, maybe the bad guy is behind the drug OD theory. And, in a most cruel twist, we bought into it.

definitely a possibility
 
Sure-she could have walked into an ambush, or even some sort of accidental anything, which could technically have had nothing to do with any of the people she called friends. I think each and every one of her friends, including her roommate and boyfriend, were more concerned about protecting themselves and their own futures, than they were about finding Lauren-and I am appalled to think this could be true, and think they all have information about drugs she took and alcohol she drank. Drug dealing in college is nothing new, and I think that finding Lauren, if these kids truly did not know what happened, was nowhere near the highest priority. Having said that, I actually think at least a few of the POIs do know what happened to her, and where she is now. I don't think her case is related to the latest one, since Hannah was found relatively easily

Forgive me for being so behind ... I've had a death in the family (SIL) and then the flu. I'm trying to catch up. I personally believe one or more POI was involved vs. a random abductor/serial killer, but regardless, I feel the POIs have something to cover up from that night that binds them together. I really don't know how else to put it ... I think even JW knows something about how the night either started or ended that he won't or can't share. I think the same re: CR. It must be a terrible burden, but one they're willing to take on for some reason (unfathomable to me). Maybe the POIs are involved from the drug angle, leaving LS vulnerable to something worse. Or maybe they were the something worse. I just hope the answers come, and the Spierers get closure.
 
The thing that has always bugged me and always will if not a random abduction... Out of all the known POI, only JW acted or took action totally out of character for a crazy in love, 3 year boyfriend. Especially the character assassination of Lauren and absolutely zero searching, pleading or reward for her whereabouts. He had money, right? Anyway, the other POIs never got defensive or angry at being investigated, didn't leave.. Beth even put up a flyer on his Fb shortly after. More than anybody else. My eye is still on the most likely and statistically likely suspect until he's ruled out.
 
The thing that has always bugged me and always will if not a random abduction... Out of all the known POI, only JW acted or took action totally out of character for a crazy in love, 3 year boyfriend. Especially the character assassination of Lauren and absolutely zero searching, pleading or reward for her whereabouts. He had money, right? Anyway, the other POIs never got defensive or angry at being investigated, didn't leave.. Beth even put up a flyer on his Fb shortly after. More than anybody else. My eye is still on the most likely and statistically likely suspect until he's ruled out.

I feel like JW's responses got weirder as time went on ... but perhaps it was his parents' responses vs. his own? IDK. It's true that he left really quickly, but that could have also been due to parental pressure. That said, there's plenty in his story to question. I've always felt that he knows "something" (but I have no clue what the "something" is).
 
I
They have? I don't recall this.

My impression from reading cases on this forum over the past couple of years is that whether or not a person is found has less to do with intelligence or background of the criminal than just luck. There's a lot of places to search out there.

I agree.
I spent most of my life in bloomington and continue to visit several times annually.
To the north is Morgan Monroe state forest. To the south is lake Monroe and it's vast area of forestry. To the east is brown county. Yellowed state forest, crooked creek, Nashville and to the west, Owen Putnam state forest, Greene county, etc.
Bloomington pretty much sits smack dab in the middle of some of the most remote wilderness in the entire state.

However access to hwy 37 north/south and hwy 46 east/west is easy access to many of these remote locations. From the center of campus a person can easily be in some of the most remote wilderness in 30 mins, in any direction.
I personally IMHO don't buy the serial stalker/killer scenerio. Even in the early hours that she was last seen there would have been tons tons of people wandering the streets in in the location where where she was. I personally don't think she left cr,Jr apartment alive.

Moo.
 
Oh. And let's not forget bloomington and Bedford are know as the limestone capitals of the world. Hundreds of large limestone rock quarry's in the area. Many just giant pits abandoned many moons ago. Some as deep as a few hundred feet.
 
The thing that has always bugged me and always will if not a random abduction... Out of all the known POI, only JW acted or took action totally out of character for a crazy in love, 3 year boyfriend. Especially the character assassination of Lauren and absolutely zero searching, pleading or reward for her whereabouts. He had money, right? Anyway, the other POIs never got defensive or angry at being investigated, didn't leave.. Beth even put up a flyer on his Fb shortly after. More than anybody else. My eye is still on the most likely and statistically likely suspect until he's ruled out.

Just replying to give you a little backup because it seems overall, keeping JW near the top of the list puts us in the minority. I still see him and 5N as PsOI 1A and 1B. With the random abductor possibility now moving higher on the list as well until and if DM can be cleared of any involvement.
 
Anyway, the other POIs never got defensive or angry at being investigated, didn't leave..

They all left, and they all got defensive and angry. Within DAYS of Lauren disappearing, Corey Rossman and Mike Beth were yelling at the media that Lauren's case was ruining THEIR lives.
 
Perhaps they can clear their names when former FBI man Garrett comes knocking on the door with the ABC TV cameras. I don't think he will be afraid when Corey says, "you will hear from my lawyer for this." And, it might not look so good if Jesse's mom threatens to turn the dog loose on him.
 
Reading your good summation has reminded me that at least we know that law enforcement visited the apartments with a dog. There was quite a spread about it in the local and student newspapers. IIRC we weren't able to discern whether it was a dog sniffing for drugs or a body. Also IIRC this was weeks after her disappearance was announced. That is a crying shame. But in any case, I wonder if the results of that might have something to do with LE keeping so close to the vest.

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-2301833.sto
 
Limestone. I'll never forget my HS IN chem teacher explaining the perfect disposal of a body is in limestone quarries. .....

I think I need my am coffee now, crazy that I remem that. And one on my first posts on LS case. We hashed out the improbability of body going to local quarries as they are secured now. ..but maybe not so.
 
Reading your good summation has reminded me that at least we know that law enforcement visited the apartments with a dog. There was quite a spread about it in the local and student newspapers. IIRC we weren't able to discern whether it was a dog sniffing for drugs or a body. Also IIRC this was weeks after her disappearance was announced. That is a crying shame. But in any case, I wonder if the results of that might have something to do with LE keeping so close to the vest.

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-2301833.sto

Yes, I still don't understand why it took almost a month for these searches to take place. There was a rumor that there was a hit from an LE cadaver dog behind 5 N, but it was never verified.
 
I'm still finding it interesting that DM hasn't been cleared yet. He had no real known connection to the case (AFAIK) so if he could be cleared I'd think they certainly would clear him publicly. Of course that assumes the media is following up and asking the question.

If he can't be cleared, then he presents an obstacle to any circumstantial evidence case against any of the known PsOI in the future. And has to become and remain a POI himself.
 
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