IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[otto]

From previous articles he now works at a printing company, 12 hour shifts...on the day this happened he stated he left for work around 4:30AM and the family was fine then. LE has not said specifically what they verified with the company but have said the father was not there during the incident at the park. I haven't seen the name of the company as yet unless I missed it...they moved back for this job since he had been unemployed for a couple of years...also stated moved back for the new church and to be near his family (most of last statement from the pastor).



That's what I read also...they met at a gathering at her father's church in Aberdeen. Clutter came up there to work at a shipyard.

BBM

Does that mean that he wasn't at work at 5:00 when the bodies were found?

I'm curious about 7:00-7:30 sighting of the victims ... whether that's written in stone, or whether it is possible that the victims were put in the park during the night.

 

[The Cheese]

I went back last night and reviewed what the prosecutor and coroner stated. I have no suspicions at all of the husband/father. I think this is going to end up being a very sad case of PPD or PPP.

JMO

 

[otto]

If I had to venture an opinion ... based on what little we know ... I'm inclined to think that this is a triple murder with an attempt to disguise it as a religiously based murder/suicide. If that's the case, there are very few people that would know enough about the victims to use religious symbols (Bible nearby) to disguise this as a murder/suicide ... which, in my opinion, would point to one primary suspect. That said, the one fact that contradicts this possibility is the 7:00 -7:30 sighting of the family on the morning that their bodies were found. I'm very curious about who provided that witness statement and it if it someone that is also associated with the church.

 

[Snoopster]

I went back last night and reviewed what the prosecutor and coroner stated. I have no suspicions at all of the husband/father. I think this is going to end up being a very sad case of PPD or PPP.

JMO

I have the same feeling. I think it was PPP.

If it was a crime of opportunity by someone who saw them at the park what would the chances be that no one heard or saw anything at the park? Similarly, if they had been killed away from the park and just dumped there, why wouldn't the perpetrator have found a more isolated spot to reduce the chance of being seen? I guess that it could have been done to make it look like she was out for a walk at the time to remove any connection to her home (or church).

IF Jaime had PPD prior to the move, the move and greater isolation (i.e. away from her family in Washington) may have been the straw the broke the camel's back...leading to PPP (psychosis).

In light of her and her husband's extremely close ties to the church, perhaps her "therapy" was to pray harder, to be the good mom she was supposed to be. Perhaps she never got the medical therapy that she needed.

All of this is just wild speculation on my part.

 

[otto]

I went back last night and reviewed what the prosecutor and coroner stated. I have no suspicions at all of the husband/father. I think this is going to end up being a very sad case of PPD or PPP.

JMO

How could someone commit suicide in water? There is a natural instinct to breath, so suicide by drowning in a shallow creek seems almost impossible. Drugging one's self first is a possibility, but then the suicide would not be in the water. Any thoughts on how someone commits suicide in 12-18 inches of water?

 

[otto]

I have the same feeling. I think it was PPP.

If it was a crime of opportunity by someone who saw them at the park what would the chances be that no one heard or saw anything at the park? Similarly, if they had been killed away from the park and just dumped there, why wouldn't the perpetrator have found a more isolated spot to reduce the chance of being seen? I guess that it could have been done to make it look like she was out for a walk at the time to remove any connection to her home (or church).

IF Jaime had PPD prior to the move, the move and greater isolation (i.e. away from her family in Washington) may have been the straw the broke the camel's back...leading to PPP (psychosis).

In light of her and her husband's extremely close ties to the church, perhaps her "therapy" was to pray harder, to be the good mom she was supposed to be. Perhaps she never got the medical therapy that she needed.

All of this is just wild speculation on my part.

I understand that PPD is postpartum depression. What's PPP?

I think it's possible that it was a murder and someone wanted the bodies found quickly.

 

[time]

In the article I read it said he worked at Westport Shipyard.

http://thedailyworld.com/sections/news/local/family-friends-prepare-lay-mother-children-rest.html

Westport Shipyards is his previous job in Washington State. Or else I'm misunderstanding your post. The article is confusing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Westport+Shipyard&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=kgo&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=westport+shipyard+washington&oq=%22Westport+Shipyard&gs_l=serp.1.1.0l4.13002.13002.0.16029.1.1.0.0.0.0.103.103.0j1.1.0...0.0...1c..7.psy-ab.V63xiSg5IKo&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44158598,d.cGE&fp=633ecc7090072a73&biw=1121&bih=582

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-clutter/44/612/a56?trk=pub-pbmap

 

[The Cheese]

How could someone commit suicide in water? There is a natural instinct to breath, so suicide by drowning in a shallow creek seems almost impossible. Drugging one's self first is a possibility, but then the suicide would not be in the water. Any thoughts on how someone commits suicide in 12-18 inches of water?

I also googled that last night, because I doubted suicide by drowning.

I found overdose is one way. A person can take an overdose and then get in the water, or get in the water and then take the overdose.

Another thing I found googling is hyperventilating to bypass the urge to breathe.

Those were the 2 ways that made most sense to me, but I also think someone psychotic could do some other unusual things that would result in drowning in relatively shallow water.

I could be wrong on this, of course. I'm just saying my opinion at this time, and I'm in wait and see mode until more info comes out.

I saw you ask above what PPP is - it's post partum psychosis.

 

[Reader]

BBM

Does that mean that he wasn't at work at 5:00 when the bodies were found?

I'm curious about 7:00-7:30 sighting of the victims ... whether that's written in stone, or whether it is possible that the victims were put in the park during the night.

Sorry, I didn't phrase that well....I meant LE said the father was not at the park when the deaths (incident) happened:

He said that Michael Clutter, Jamie’s husband and the father of the children, had been cooperative with investigators. Henderson said there is no evidence Clutter was present when the deaths occurred.

http://www.courier-journal.com/view...tor-Faith-no-factor-death-New-Albany-mom-kids

 

[Reader]

I don't know if this is a different interview but the father says something I hadn't read before about when he came home and learned of the deaths:


He called his wife's friends then drove to the police station.

On the way, he passed Binford Park, just minutes before was declared a crime scene.

Clutter stopped to talk to police and learned they'd found a woman and two kids dead.


"And then whenever they showed me the pictures, I'm sure that quite a long distance away they heard me scream," said Clutter.


Now, five days later, Clutter said he still doesn't have any answers.


Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news.../19365024/-/ss3eds/-/index.html#ixzz2OIz57cyI

 

[otto]

A baby harness and Bible were found nearby ... weren't the clothes also found nearby? I suppose that the mom could have told the boy that he was going to be baptised and then drowned him. Drowning an infant would have happened second, but suicide by drowning seems so unusual. Could a psychotic person fight the instinct to breath in 12 inches of water? It seems so strange, but that would be the only logical explanation barring a fourth party murdering the family ... which is what family annihilators do.

 

[michmi]

How could someone commit suicide in water? There is a natural instinct to breath, so suicide by drowning in a shallow creek seems almost impossible. Drugging one's self first is a possibility, but then the suicide would not be in the water. Any thoughts on how someone commits suicide in 12-18 inches of water?

Not to mention the fact that the people who found them said on the 911 calls that mom's body appeared battered.

 

[time]

I don't know if this is a different interview but the father says something I hadn't read before about when he came home and learned of the deaths:


He called his wife's friends then drove to the police station.

On the way, he passed Binford Park, just minutes before was declared a crime scene.

Clutter stopped to talk to police and learned they'd found a woman and two kids dead.


"And then whenever they showed me the pictures, I'm sure that quite a long distance away they heard me scream," said Clutter.


Now, five days later, Clutter said he still doesn't have any answers.


Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news.../19365024/-/ss3eds/-/index.html#ixzz2OIz57cyI

Huh??

It is weird enough he may have stopped on his way to the police station, talked to cops about the deaths before it was declared a crime scene - I'm not saying this is a lie, the timing is just odd, but BBM does this sentence make sense to anyone?

 

[Reader]

Otto, you also had a question about the last time the mother and children were seen around 7-7:30 that morning. Here is a quote from BeginnersLuck a couple of pages back:

In the press conference at approx 4:15 in on the video Henderson states that they are confident based on witness statements and verification that the mother and children were seen at approx. 7 - 7:30 that morning.

http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...WS01/303150079

IDK...it seems the father has been eliminated and we've gotten no indication of any other person involved...and I personally just can't see her doing this herself...there were no statements made by anyone, her family, husband, pastor, new friends in IN, old friends in WA that she had problems caring for the children or was sick in any way, mentally or physically.

However I'm curious about and encouraged by her father's statement:

“They [LE] are working on some things, and it’s a whole lot more involved than what we thought and they thought. I guess I’m glad to hear there are some things they’re working on,” Pink said.

I'm glad that LE is looking at other angles and doing a thorough investigation. And I remember that LE has been known to make misstatements on purpose to mislead someone they suspect and to see how they react.

Add: I'm thinking if the father is involved he would have had to place the bodies in the creek BEFORE he went to work.

 

[Reader]

Huh??

It is weird enough he may have stopped on his way to the police station, talked to cops about the deaths before it was declared a crime scene - I'm not saying this is a lie, the timing is just odd, but BBM does this sentence make sense to anyone?

Well, I was wondering what pictures he is talking about? If the creek had not even been declared a crime scene yet, how did they already have pictures of the victims. And surely they did not show him pictures of the bodies....so how did they get current pictures of the victims to show him? To add, further this does not seem good police procedure to me, not that I'm very knowledgeable but I've never heard of showing a parent pictures of their dead children at the scene. Usually identification is made at the morgue.

 

[mysteriew]

Sorry, I didn't phrase that well....I meant LE said the father was not at the park when the deaths (incident) happened:


Quote:
He said that Michael Clutter, Jamie’s husband and the father of the children, had been cooperative with investigators. Henderson said there is no evidence Clutter was present when the deaths occurred.

http://www.courier-journal.com/viewa...lbany-mom-kids

http://www.courier-journal.com/view...tor-Faith-no-factor-death-New-Albany-mom-kids

Experience tells me that LE means exactly that. They don't have any evidence showing him at the park. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there, it doesn't mean they do or do not believe he was there. It only means that they don't have any proof he was there.

 

[mysteriew]

How could someone commit suicide in water? There is a natural instinct to breath, so suicide by drowning in a shallow creek seems almost impossible. Drugging one's self first is a possibility, but then the suicide would not be in the water. Any thoughts on how someone commits suicide in 12-18 inches of water?

Not just shallow water, but extremely cold shallow water.

 

[cluciano63]

I don't know if this is a different interview but the father says something I hadn't read before about when he came home and learned of the deaths:


He called his wife's friends then drove to the police station.

On the way, he passed Binford Park, just minutes before was declared a crime scene.

Clutter stopped to talk to police and learned they'd found a woman and two kids dead.


"And then whenever they showed me the pictures, I'm sure that quite a long distance away they heard me scream," said Clutter.


Now, five days later, Clutter said he still doesn't have any answers.


Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news.../19365024/-/ss3eds/-/index.html#ixzz2OIz57cyI

I am probably just being sensitive, but that is a weird statement, about how loudly he screamed.

 

[tlcya]

http://www.pregnancy-info.net/postpartum_psychosis.html

I posted this link a few pages back and the more I think on this case, the more convinced I become that this may have been PPP.


Take a highly devout woman, throw in PPD and a recent move far from her support system. Now throw in a dash of some extreme beliefs and I can see the psychosis manifesting as a need to get her and the kids off this earth ASAP and into the arms of their "Father".

I find the nudity to be unusual but not alarmingly so. If she was psychotic, that could simply have been a belief that to meet their maker they should appear before him in the same way the entered the world, naked.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.pregnancy-info.net/postpartum_psychosis.html

I posted this link a few pages back and the more I think on this case, the more convinced I become that this may have been PPP.


Take a highly devout woman, throw in PPD and a recent move far from her support system. Now throw in a dash of some extreme believes and I can see the psychosis manifesting as a need to get her and the kids off this earth ASAP and into the arms of their "Father".

I find the nudity to be unusual but alarmingly so. If she was pyschotic, that could simply have been a belief that to meet their maker they should appear before him in the same way the entered the world, naked.

This makes a lot of sense to me and again goes back to my original theory but I am really not even close, after other things I've read, to be convinced this was the cause of death. They have not said the father is ruled out, only that he has cooperated so far. They could have been placed in the park minutes before they were found.

Right now I'm not really leaning one way more than another. I'm still open for 3 different possibilities on what happened.