IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

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Could the so-called confirmed 'sighting' at 7-7:30 am on the day this happened have been a call to the school, leaving a message that the 10 year-old would not be attending that day?

It was a Wednesday, was there school that day or was there a scheduled day off? If there was school, what stopped them from trying to contact the parents? There is no mention the school needed to contact the parents or tried.

Hypothermia is the only reason that comes to mind that makes people take their clothes off in freezing or cold weather. Can one induce hypothermia in others somehow? The cold water would then 'mess' with hypothermia being present in the first place. Jmo.
 
Reader said:
Well, I was wondering what pictures he is talking about? If the creek had not even been declared a crime scene yet, how did they already have pictures of the victims. And surely they did not show him pictures of the bodies....so how did they get current pictures of the victims to show him? To add, further this does not seem good police procedure to me, not that I'm very knowledgeable but I've never heard of showing a parent pictures of their dead children at the scene. Usually identification is made at the morgue.
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"And then whenever they showed me the pictures, I'm sure that quite a long distance away they heard me scream," said Clutter.

I thought the whole 'pictures' thing was odd... wold they ask him to identify the bodies that way?
 
MsFacetious said:
Postpartum psychosis has been documented since BEFORE the 1950's and has NOT been abandoned.

We have members here on Websleuths who have personally experienced postpartum psychosis.
I have read their heartbreaking stories and been SO grateful that someone saw they were in trouble and got them help.

Not everyone is so fortunate. Look at Andrea Yates. The red flags and warnings were completely disregarded.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...and-lives-with-herself-a-decade-later/254302/

The hormonal changes that you go through when you give birth can cause depression... OR psychosis.
It isn't that it alters your brain. The hormones are incredible and can do a lot of things to a woman.

There are documented cases of mothers killing themselves and/or their kids... that were clear PPP/PPD cases.

http://www.postpartum.net/Get-the-Facts/Postpartum-Psychosis.aspx

I don't have any idea if the mother in this case had PPD or PPP. I do know that if she did, she wouldn't be the first.
IF she did, she wouldn't be the first who either hid it well or had a husband who ignored the problem.

I also know that postpartum psychosis is very serious and potentially life threatening.
Dismissing a diagnosis that serious as "an abandoned theory" is disrespectful and uncalled for. :twocents:

All just MY opinion. :twocents:
Click to expand...

Here is some more history on Andrea Yates. It appears that she started having problems after her forth child was born. She was told she shouldn't have any more children but she did ignore the advice of her psychiatrist and she gave birth to one more. Her symptoms were very profound and she was treated many times after the birth of the 4th child and the 5th. She was currently receiving treatment when she killed her children.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates"]Andrea Yates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

From the link above on PPP. http://www.postpartum.net/Get-the-Facts/Postpartum-Psychosis.aspx

The onset is usually sudden, most often within the first 4 weeks postpartum.

Symptoms of postpartum psychosis can include:
Delusions or strange beliefs
Hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that aren’t there)
Feeling very irritated
Hyperactivity
Decreased need for or inability to sleep
Paranoia and suspiciousness
Rapid mood swings
Difficulty communicating at times
The most significant risk factors for postpartum psychosis are a personal or family history of bipolar disorder, or a previous psychotic episode.
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The move and all that goes with it could have been a trigger for Mrs. Clutter. The baby was 6 months old though and I have a hard time believing that there were not obvious symptoms prior to this incident. The question I have then is were they ignored by everyone around her. This would have to be her parents, husband, friends and the church. I haven't heard any statements from her friends but all others say she was happy and showed no signs. From MSM she spoke with her family several times a week and they were at the church everyday.

I'm not buying that she went straight into a state of psychosis 6 months after her chlid was born and showed no symptoms or was able to hide the symptoms from others. If she was in a state of psychosis then IMO it was ignored by everyone around her and everyone is lying to the press. I think the family wants answers also, I doubt they would all lie about her condition.
The neighbors interviewed didn't mention anything odd about her mental state either.

As LE continues to do their interviews, maybe there will be someone that will come forward and speak about her mental state "if" that is the case. PPD would be easier to hide than PPP but there would certainly be behavior changes which no one has indicated thus far.
 
Woodland said:
Could the so-called confirmed 'sighting' at 7-7:30 am on the day this happened have been a call to the school, leaving a message that the 10 year-old would not be attending that day?

It was a Wednesday, was there school that day or was there a scheduled day off? If there was school, what stopped them from trying to contact the parents? There is no mention the school needed to contact the parents or tried.

Hypothermia is the only reason that comes to mind that makes people take their clothes off in freezing or cold weather. Can one induce hypothermia in others somehow? The cold water would then 'mess' with hypothermia being present in the first place. Jmo.
Click to expand...

I think there's a link up thread stating that they did homeschooling.
 
otto said:
He seems really creepy. I cannot believe that it would be considered an open and shut case of a woman murdering her 10 year old and 6 month old in a nearby, freezing water creek, and then committing suicide in 12-18 inches of water.

How does someone commit suicide in 12 inches of water again? I really don't see how this is a possibility. I also fail to understand how giving birth could cause "PPP" and post-birth "psychosis". This woman was apparently not nuts before she gave birth, so how could giving birth cause a psychosis? Childbirth does not cause psychosis ... it's a normal bodily function that does not effect the brain ... childbirth does not cause psychosis in animals either. This post partum psychosis seems to be made-up ... because women do not develop psychosis from giving birth (sounds like a 1950s psychology theory that has long been abandoned).
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BBM, I'm not sure what you would call it, psychosis, or what, but until you've seen an animal eat it's new-born young, you might not be a believer. However, these new mothers are suffering from something, it ain't pretty, and the young end up just as dead.
 
otto said:
I see a man looking sideways when explaining what happened to his wife and children.
Click to expand...

He's done it in every single interview he's done. It's weird--he will periodically make very brief eye contact with the person interviewing, but then he looks off to the side as he finishes answering.

He has also mentioned in multiple interviews that he "knows his wife loved me" but other than a brief mention of them kissing and telling each other they loved each other before he went to work, I haven't seen or read any indication of him saying the same, or how much he misses her or the kids, none of that.
 
I have thought that interviews with her family were kinda revealing. They talk glowingly of her as a mother and a person. Only brief mentions of her marriage. Their comment that they were glad that LE was looking at other things also meant something I think.
 
michmi said:
He's done it in every single interview he's done. It's weird--he will periodically make very brief eye contact with the person interviewing, but then he looks off to the side as he finishes answering.

He has also mentioned in multiple interviews that he "knows his wife loved me" but other than a brief mention of them kissing and telling each other they loved each other before he went to work, I haven't seen or read any indication of him saying the same, or how much he misses her or the kids, none of that.
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I am not personally comfortable analyzing behavior of family members in cases. That is due to my own behavior that I have displayed when I was in shock. I might find things that are said odd, but I am hesitant to comment because I always reflect back on personal experiences.

I realize that you have to consider all the other factors along with the analysis of the persons behavior. That's why I get so angry sometimes when I see the blogs that address this subject as a single factor indicating guilt.

I always appreciate others comments and opinions though that add to the discussion to help piece the whole picture together.

Maybe someday I will learn enough to be able to comfortably look at behavior in the importance of an investigation.
 
http://thedailyworld.com/sections/news/local/family-friends-prepare-lay-mother-children-rest.html
FAMILY FRIENDS PREPARE LAY MOTHER and CHILDREN to REST
There are some family pictures at the above link. Nothing new in this article here...the pictures are heartbreaking.

A week after they were discovered in a shallow creek in Indiana, it’s unclear whether Jaime Clutter and her children will be coming home to Aberdeen or will be laid to rest in what would have been their new home.

Memorials are in the works for the 35-year-old woman and her children, Brandon, 10, and Katelyn, 6 months, both here and in Indiana, where they moved about three months ago. Jaime Clutter’s father, Bill Pink, said Tuesday that he and her mother would likely attend an Indiana funeral service tentatively set for Saturday.

“As soon as that gets concrete, I think we’ll probably do a memorial over here,” Pink told The Daily World. His daughter and grandchildren lived in Aberdeen all their lives, he said, connected to a large group of extended family and friends.

Pink said the cost involved might prevent the family from bringing them home for burial.

“The cost is really pretty high to do all that,” Pink said.

The family’s church, The World of Praise United Pentecostal Church in Hoquiam, has set up a donation page to help the family with the various expenses. Joyce Smith, wife of Bishop Ronald Smith, said the family would never ask for such help, but the congregation wanted to do something to lighten the burden of memorials, air travel and other expenses that may come up.
<snipped for space>
 
BeginnersLuck said:
Here is some more history on Andrea Yates. It appears that she started having problems after her forth child was born. She was told she shouldn't have any more children but she did ignore the advice of her psychiatrist and she gave birth to one more. Her symptoms were very profound and she was treated many times after the birth of the 4th child and the 5th. She was currently receiving treatment when she killed her children.
Andrea Yates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the link above on PPP. http://www.postpartum.net/Get-the-Facts/Postpartum-Psychosis.aspx



The move and all that goes with it could have been a trigger for Mrs. Clutter. The baby was 6 months old though and I have a hard time believing that there were not obvious symptoms prior to this incident. The question I have then is were they ignored by everyone around her. This would have to be her parents, husband, friends and the church. I haven't heard any statements from her friends but all others say she was happy and showed no signs. From MSM she spoke with her family several times a week and they were at the church everyday.

I'm not buying that she went straight into a state of psychosis 6 months after her chlid was born and showed no symptoms or was able to hide the symptoms from others. If she was in a state of psychosis then IMO it was ignored by everyone around her and everyone is lying to the press. I think the family wants answers also, I doubt they would all lie about her condition.
The neighbors interviewed didn't mention anything odd about her mental state either.

As LE continues to do their interviews, maybe there will be someone that will come forward and speak about her mental state "if" that is the case. PPD would be easier to hide than PPP but there would certainly be behavior changes which no one has indicated thus far.
Click to expand...

BBM - Thanks! You expressed very well what I was trying to say last night....It MAY be that the mother had PPD or PPP, but there is no evidence of it that I have seen from the family, friends or pastor. Surely if she was in serious enough shape to be suicidal/homicidal, someone would have noticed some changes in her behavior or appearance.

I say appearance because I remember that it was said that Andrea Yates had stopped bathing and taking care of herself and the children, stopped eating and feeding the children. That was the reason the MIL came over everyday.

From the pictures we've seen of Mrs. Clutter and the children, the house was clean, children clean and well cared for and she was taking care of herself. In fact, I even made a comment about her looking younger in one photo. That does not meet the symptoms of PPP as far as I understand them...IMO...
 
time said:
"And then whenever they showed me the pictures, I'm sure that quite a long distance away they heard me scream," said Clutter.

I thought the whole 'pictures' thing was odd... wold they ask him to identify the bodies that way?
Click to expand...
I'm thinking the cops showed him a picture of the sling hanging from a tree, with the Bible. Those things would be unique enough to her that he'd almost have to do the math: my wife's beloved Bible + my baby's empty sling + cops in the creek = OMFG.
 
PPD is pretty common and a very real mental illness. It can also last for years especially in women who do not get treatment and continue to have babies.

Add in some strict fundamental religious beliefs (aka, pressures) and a lack of family or medical support, and you have a disaster just waiting to happen.

On the other hand - we all carry responsibility to be healthy enough to care for our children. I find it almost impossible to believe that PPD alone is what compels these women to plan, then proceed, to murder their babies. There has to be a bunch of other factors that override the maternal instinct which is incredibly strong at this time. Women are at very high risk of suicide because they believe the baby would be better off without them as a mother. It is a skewed way of "caring" for their babies by removing themselves as mothers...not removing the baby as well.

PPD is usually most dangerous for Mom, not baby. PPD is also readily treated with support and medication, often a good night's sleep is all the treatment needed (a nurse in a maternity hospital told me that).
 
Reader said:
BBM - Thanks! You expressed very well what I was trying to say last night....It MAY be that the mother had PPD or PPP, but there is no evidence of it that I have seen from the family, friends or pastor. Surely if she was in serious enough shape to be suicidal/homicidal, someone would have noticed some changes in her behavior or appearance.

I say appearance because I remember that it was said that Andrea Yates had stopped bathing and taking care of herself and the children, stopped eating and feeding the children. That was the reason the MIL came over everyday.

From the pictures we've seen of Mrs. Clutter and the children, the house was clean, children clean and well cared for and she was taking care of herself. In fact, I even made a comment about her looking younger in one photo. That does not meet the symptoms of PPP as far as I understand them...IMO...
Click to expand...

Agreed. I haven't seen evidence to support that Mrs. Clutter had PPP and/or PPD ... yet. I haven't seen evidence to support Mr. Clutter's version of events ... yet. I'd like to know more about the context in which Mrs. Clutter and her children were seen that morning. I'd like to know more about Mr. Clutter's job and how far it was from home. Was he an employee in good standing? Did he typically come home for lunch? What were the odd things happening where they lived? Have they been confirmed? Were they experienced by both Mr. and Mrs. Clutter or only one of them? If only one, which one? Were there traffic cameras between the apartment complex and the park?

So many questions. Whatever the facts, such a heartbreaking story.
 
mysteriew said:
Experience tells me that LE means exactly that. They don't have any evidence showing him at the park. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there, it doesn't mean they do or do not believe he was there. It only means that they don't have any proof he was there.
Click to expand...

It's my perogative to change my view, right? :rocker:


Yesterday I put forward my view that Jaime suffered from PP psychosis. That was the only explanation that made sense considering that the bodies were found in such a public place. It also fit with their recent move and the potential that if she was a "good wife and mother" and a "good Christian" she wouldn't have any problems and she certainly wouldn't commit suicide. (That's a sin, right?) So, I had the sense that is was possible that, by definition, regular medical therapy or intervention wouldn't necessarily be available or acceptable.

So today is another day....another view. The thing that has been gnawing away at my brain today is the LE statement that they 'had no evidence' that Mike was at the park around the time that his family died. This goes back to my earlier question about his work. If he was working a 12 hour shift at a place that had multiple employees, wouldn't they be front and centre ('center' for my wonderful American friends) saying he was at work? Wouldn't LE be saying is was known that he was at work? I have heard no such comments.

Perhaps he works at a very small business and there was no one there to confirm his presence. :waitasec:

IF LE had confirmed that dad was at work, wouldn't they have come right out and said that? Instead they used that wishy-washy language saying that 'there was no evidence'.

What happened to this family? :(
 
otto said:
He seems really creepy. I cannot believe that it would be considered an open and shut case of a woman murdering her 10 year old and 6 month old in a nearby, freezing water creek, and then committing suicide in 12-18 inches of water.

How does someone commit suicide in 12 inches of water again? I really don't see how this is a possibility. I also fail to understand how giving birth could cause "PPP" and post-birth "psychosis". This woman was apparently not nuts before she gave birth, so how could giving birth cause a psychosis? Childbirth does not cause psychosis ... it's a normal bodily function that does not effect the brain ... childbirth does not cause psychosis in animals either. This post partum psychosis seems to be made-up ... because women do not develop psychosis from giving birth (sounds like a 1950s psychology theory that has long been abandoned).
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it really does exist, and women who suffer from it go through the double hell of the illness and of nobody believing they need help. Oh, and having everybody including themselves believing they're a bad mother.

It is rare. Thank God. But it does exist.

Not saying she did or didn't suffer from it. But it's possible.
 
carbuff said:
Unfortunately, it really does exist, and women who suffer from it go through the double hell of the illness and of nobody believing they need help. Oh, and having everybody including themselves believing they're a bad mother.

It is rare. Thank God. But it does exist.
Click to expand...

It certainly does exist. Not only Postpartum depression, but also postpartum psychosis. Postpartum depression affects 10% to 13% of new mothers. We talk with ALL our mothers, explaining signs and symptoms, and encourage them to seek help immediately if they have any symptoms. I'm not saying this is or isn't a case of postpartum psychosis, just sharing an interesting article.

From the Journal of Women's Health: http://www.liebertpub.com/media/pdf/JWH_15_4_p352-368.pdf

The data suggest that postpartum psychosis is an overt presentation of bipolar disorder that is timed to coincide with tremendous hormonal shifts after delivery. The patient develops frank psychosis, cognitive impairment, and grossly disorganized behavior that represent a complete change from previous functioning. These perturbations, in combination with lapsed insight
into her illness and symptoms, can lead to devastating consequences in which the safety and well-being of the affected mother and her offspring are jeopardized.
 
LaborDayRN said:
It certainly does exist. Not only Postpartum depression, but also postpartum psychosis. Postpartum depression affects 10% to 13% of new mothers. We talk with ALL our mothers, explaining signs and symptoms, and encourage them to seek help immediately if they have any symptoms. I'm not saying this is or isn't a case of postpartum psychosis, just sharing an interesting article.

From the Journal of Women's Health: http://www.liebertpub.com/media/pdf/JWH_15_4_p352-368.pdf

The data suggest that postpartum psychosis is an overt presentation of bipolar disorder that is timed to coincide with tremendous hormonal shifts after delivery. The patient develops frank psychosis, cognitive impairment, and grossly disorganized behavior that represent a complete change from previous functioning. These perturbations, in combination with lapsed insight
into her illness and symptoms, can lead to devastating consequences in which the safety and well-being of the affected mother and her offspring are jeopardized.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

If somebody had known enough to tell me that after my middle child was born, I'd have had a much less difficult time for the next two or three years...
 
carbuff said:
Thanks.

If somebody had known enough to tell me that after my middle child was born, I'd have had a much less difficult time for the next two or three years...
Click to expand...

I'm so sorry for the difficult time you had Carbuff. I guess as time goes on we learn more and more about the human condition.
 
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