IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[wfgodot]

Refresh my memory, somebody/anybody: did that "odd and unexplained" thing devolve in later reports to just Mrs. C. observing those things, or were they referred to as just being things observed, without attribution as to the observer? Or was that the only time they were referred to?

 

[fred&edna]

You think maybe Mr. Clutter was suffering from post partum depression too?

I don't know if the NAPD based their conclusion of "delusions of grandiose proportions" on the odd/unexplainable things mentioned by the pastor but the two seem related.

 

[time]

A quote from a news report (previously mentioned several pages back)

"The family pastor for a southern Indiana woman found dead alongside her two children in a creek says the woman and her husband had seen "odd" and unexplainable
things happen around their apartment complex during the time they lived there."
(link below)

Hmmm... should we conclude that Mr. Clutter also had delusions of grandiose proportions and exhibited signs of serious mental illness??

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...ent-where-woman-two-children-were-found-dead/


Another thought: The Clutters were a deeply devout Pentecostal family and, as part of their doctrine, believed in "speaking in tongues"... something that I (and other non-Pentecostals) could easily view as "speaking incoherently".

Good find. And, I don't think strange things happening, especially if two people are experiencing them, constitutes a mental illness. As we have discussed before (I think) their beliefs may have affected the way they or others in the church would term something, e.g. demonic spirits, evil forces.

BBM... I agree, but I'm not sure they do this outside of church or in the company of others? Anyway, there was an interesting study (not sure there was followup or has been researched more/replicated):

Contrary to what may be a common perception, studies suggest that people who speak in tongues rarely suffer from mental problems. A recent study of nearly 1,000 evangelical Christians in England found that those who engaged in the practice were more emotionally stable than those who did not. Researchers have identified at least two forms of the practice, one ecstatic and frenzied, the other subdued and nearly silent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=0

 

[fred&edna]

Here is part of the new conference that NAPD gave about the Clutter's death for those that may have missed it.

http://www.courier-journal.com/Vide...lead-investigator-on-Jaime-Clutter-delusions-
http://www.courier-journal.com/Vide...-Police-Chief-Sherri-Knight-on-Clutter-deaths

eta: I found two videos. Sure wish I could find the news conference video Henderson did.

Thank you for posting these links, BL!

While I have many thoughts about the facial expressions of the police chief and the female detective (as well as the "looks" they exchanged), I'll just simplify it into one word for now.... unprofessional.

 

[time]

Here is part of the new conference that NAPD gave about the Clutter's death for those that may have missed it.

http://www.courier-journal.com/Vide...lead-investigator-on-Jaime-Clutter-delusions-
http://www.courier-journal.com/Vide...-Police-Chief-Sherri-Knight-on-Clutter-deaths

eta: I found two videos. Sure wish I could find the news conference video Henderson did.

I get really angry when they present a case that someone was that mentally disturbed and give very few specifics, but do not present any evidence that what they are saying is true, no validation. No one knows exactly what Jaime supposedly said, how often anyone heard/saw those kinds of things from her, how long anyone is claiming that went on, what the context is, nor WHO claims she said those things yet they are acting like it was so apparent? I can see respecting privacy, but I have never seen LE act as the ME, as a forensic psyhologist, and withhold reports and information from the DA while not giving one clue as to who the 'witness(es)' is nor the who is claiming she exhibited ...

A: "incoherent statements, uh, delusions of grandiose proportions of demonic presences, uh, the family was being stalked by these presences" (So, her husband never heard her say anything like this? Or is this a misrepresentation by someone?)

Q: Did she leave a note behind at the scene or..?
A: There was evidence that, uh, concerning the nature of these grandiose, uh, delusions.... but nothing specific of a lucid person (HUH?????)

http://www.courier-journal.com/Vide...or-on-Jaime-Clutter-delusions-?nclick_check=1

The public should not have to read between the lines on this given a mother and two children were found dead under unusual circumstances.

 

[time]

I know this is probably some weird coincidence but it did creep me out when it popped up on a Google search

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kt...w albany Melinda Loveless Carrie East&f=false

 

[fred&edna]

"Police said experts have determined that Jaime Clutter showed signs of serious mental illness, including postpartum depression and psychosis.

On the day of the murder, the 35-year-old mother allegedly suffered a mental breakdown, which is believed to have been exacerbated by exposure to frigid temperatures.

Her husband, however, claims that his wife's behaviour had never struck him as odd or irrational. "'She never talked about stuff like that with me, he said. ‘I personally do not think that I had missed something.'

However, investigators said that they were told by Jaime Clutter's parents that their daughter had been suffering from delusions and made incoherent statements about a demonic presence that was stalking their family."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rowned-children-icy-Indiana-creek-demons.html

I'd bet the farm (if I had one!) her parents did not actually say the words, "She was suffering from delusions and made incoherent statements".


**When we will know the grand jury findings??

 

[fred&edna]

You think maybe Mr. Clutter was suffering from post partum depression too?

I suppose that if the victims here had been FATHER and children we would have viewed this case much differently. I feel sure it would have made a significant difference in the investigation.

 

[time]

"Police said experts have determined that Jaime Clutter showed signs of serious mental illness, including postpartum depression and psychosis.

On the day of the murder, the 35-year-old mother allegedly suffered a mental breakdown, which is believed to have been exacerbated by exposure to frigid temperatures.

Her husband, however, claims that his wife's behaviour had never struck him as odd or irrational. "'She never talked about stuff like that with me, he said. ‘I personally do not think that I had missed something.'

However, investigators said that they were told by Jaime Clutter's parents that their daughter had been suffering from delusions and made incoherent statements about a demonic presence that was stalking their family."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rowned-children-icy-Indiana-creek-demons.html

I'd bet the farm (if I had one!) her parents did not actually say the words, "She was suffering from delusions and made incoherent statements".


**When we will know the grand jury findings??

Agree! And, early on I thought they said there really weren't any problems?? Besides, reworded a bit that just might be what kinds of things they talked about in the congregation and I say that with no disrespect. As we've noted, one persons demonic presence could be anothers bad karma, jinn, negative force, or malevolent entity. And, if you look up what people are claiming as a "demonic presence' it ranges from weird smells/tastes, electrical problems, and who knows what else.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bad+karma&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a#gs_rn=19&gs_ri=psy-ab&pq=bad%20karma&cp=11&gs_id=61&xhr=t&q=demonic+presence&es_nrs=true&pf=p&client=firefox-a&hs=rm3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&oq=demonic+pre&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE&fp=f63cc7b990c20fb7&biw=1028&bih=687

 

[BeginnersLuck]

So this mother supposedly managed just fine for 6 months and then she had a breakdown and it was determined to be PPD with psychosis? Or were their problems all along that no one recognized and treatment was not sought?

I thought from the info that was researched earlier in the thread that 6 months for PPD would be extremely rare as well as drowning yourself. These are two things that make my hinky meter go up, without having more information.

 

[fred&edna]

"The Floyd County, Ind., grand jury called to examine the deaths of Jaime Clutter and her two children in March is expected to meet until at least July 9 before completing its review."

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013306280099&gcheck=1


Okay, it's July 10... I'm impatient... I wanna' know!

 

[MissJ]

"Delusions of grandiose proportions" is a really odd statement. What were those delusions?
Grandiose sounds like she thought she or someone she knew was "more than they were".
Why would a police chief think they could diagnose this? Really strange. JMO

 

[fred&edna]

"Delusions of grandiose proportions" is a really odd statement. What were those delusions?
Grandiose sounds like she thought she or someone she knew was "more than they were".
Why would a police chief think they could diagnose this? Really strange. JMO

I think the investigator was trying to "unprofessionally" suggest "delusions of grandeur" aka grandiose delusions. I used the word "unprofessionally" because IF "delusions of grandeur" was the diagnosis then she should have used the correct wording. (imo... they only kinda/sorta knew what they were talking about)

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions"]Grandiose delusions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[shanhunter]

Hello, I've only posted once before and I hope I'm posting correctly. I have not been able to get the Clutter family out of my heart and head for some reason, so this is my outlet and thanks for reading. I don't believe she drowned her children. I live in South Africa and have been following this tragic story since the deaths of Jaime and her children. Apparently the Panel has ended its review and there will be a news conference in a couple of hours to discuss the findings of the Panel. I pray that they have come to the truth.

 

[time]

Thank you for the heads up Shanhunter (and WELCOME!)

http://www.whas11.com/news/local/Grand-jury-says-Clutter--215075411.html

A Floyd County grand jury has concluded a New Albany mother and her two children were "not drowned purposely" after they were found in a creek at Binford Park in March.

"Hypothermia and wind chill contributed to Clutter family deaths," Floyd County prosecutor Keith Henderson said during a news conference Thursday.

I'm not entirely sure what this means since they had no clothes on?

 

[time]

New Albany Police Chief Sherri Knight said in May that Jaime drowned the children and then drowned as well, but Henderson says the grand jury doesn't believe Jaime Clutter killed her kids or herself, and has ruled it a tragic accident.

http://www.wdrb.com/story/22815191/prosecutor-childrens-drowning-death-were-accidental

 

[oceanblue]

I know my opinion will not be a popular one. I believe the GJ on this. I took the following from webmd page on hypothermia:



"Normally, the activity of the heart and liver produce most of your body heat. But as core body temperature cools, these organs produce less heat, in essence causing a protective "shut down" to preserve heat and protect the brain. Low body temperature can slow brain activity, breathing, and heart rate.

Confusion and fatigue can set in, hampering a person's ability to understand what's happening and make intelligent choices to get to safety.

What Are the Risk Factors for Hypothermia?
People at increased risk for hypothermia include:

The elderly, infants, and children without adequate heating, clothing, or food.
Mentally ill people.
People who are outdoors for extended periods..."



I think Jaime went for a walk that morning amidst some confusion on her part. The longer they were out without proper clothing for winter, the more confused she became. Brandon was, according to what I have read, an obedient child. He was probably cold, but trusted his mother. They ended up at the park and there is no telling how long they may have sat there before hypothermia totally took over and resulted in them getting into the creek. It's all very sad and unnecessary. Three people died for no reaon, no matter how it happened.

RIP Jaime, Brandon, & Katelyn

:rose: :rose: :rose:

 

[fred&edna]

Just my opinion/thoughts.

The police, the DA, the coroner, the grand jury and we do not know exactly what happened that day, but I accept the explanation of "tragic accident" (especially over murder/suicide). I feel better knowing the DA questioned the work of the local police and that he acted... professionally.

 

[wfgodot]

"The mother, suffering from diminished capacity, killed the children in the tragic belief that..." sounds more likely.

 

[fred&edna]

"The mother, suffering from diminished capacity, killed the children in the tragic belief that..." sounds more likely.

I think it came down to actually proving "diminished capacity".

Also, I will always wonder why the (still unknown) witness who saw JC and her children that morning let them leave his/her home and go out into the freezing temperatures when admittedly they weren't prepared.