IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[fred&edna]

I went through a rough few weeks after my first son was born and I remember telling someone (several years later), "my hormones threw a party and forgot to invite me". That was the best way I could "lightly" describe it.

But, at the time, it wasn't a light nor laughing matter.

 

[MizStery]

I think there's work to be done in educating people to understand how PPD and PPP are treatable and that medications are available to help aleviate the suffering it can cause.

It was a real low point for women when Tom Cruise critized Brooke Shields for being open about her PPD.

In case anyone has forgot ...it was in July 2005, on the Today show, actor Tom Cruise slammed Brooke Shields?and by extension, every woman who has suffered from postpartum depression?saying she should have simply exercised and taken vitamins and not used antidepressants.

Every woman reguardless of religion,race,nationality or marital status needs to get out the word on this topic. Needless suffering could be avoided simply by advocating for one another. MOO

 

[necco]

Respectfully snipped

I do agree that a woman would have to be rather crazy to drown her two children and then commit suicide in 12-18 inches of water (if that is even possible), but I doubt that the cause of this could be childbirth.

Science disagrees with you. Postpartum psychosis is real. Pregnancy and childbirth can cause major chemical changes in the body. Saying that childbirth cannot cause PPP is like saying that pregnancy cannot cause gestational diabetes.

Mental illness is an illness. It is caused by chemical issues, the same way anaphylaxis, diabetes and countless other illnesses are caused. It's real. It happens. Untreated, it can end in tragedies such as Andrea Yates.

 

[rosetattoo]

Let's suppose all of that is true and it is also true that there is no running water, no bathtub, no hot water tap, no heat, no grocery store and none of the conveniences of modern life. How is it possible that childbirth only directly causes psychosis in our comfortable, contemporary society? I'm sure that some women find childbirth difficult to cope with, but clearly women today have it far easier than ever before ... so how can they be suffering more due to childbirth than in the past, and suffering so much that pregnancy today is responsible for psychosis?

Because now we diagnose and treat mental disorders whereas then they said the person was a witch, or possessed by a demon, or maybe was just the village idiot. I'm sure it existed. It just wasn't recognized and understood for what it was.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

All women as well as their partners, should be educated at the hospital or by their physician about PPD or PPP. If a woman has a past history of mental illness then that should be addressed also, especially if it increases her odds of having problems after the birth of a child.

I don't think that every woman that has harmed their child or thought about harming their child can be contributed to PPP. It's just one of many possibilities.

Nor do I think that "all" cases of psychosis which has many causes can be the result of PPP.

I will say that if Mrs. C was having some problems, I can see how the Thursday night video's and end of the world teaching, would make things worse.

My friends mother suffered with schizophrenia. It's onset was later in life most likely triggered by a traumatic event. None of the meds worked for her. She was recruited by a church, that I'll just say preaches a lot about fear and has different beliefs than traditional Christianity. It was not good for her illness at all.

 

[otto]

That's a really good question. If there was a significant change, that would be a big stressor for her. I can also imagine it has to be pretty difficult to get the kids all together and ready to go to church every single day.

Was she going to church every day? Wow ... that sounds like a little too much influence, if you ask me. I would probably be psychotic if I had to obey the church people and attend daily meetings to prove it. Even 6 months after birth, isn't it important to still keep a fairly quiet "at home" lifestyle, especially when also raising an active 10 year old? She was in her late 30s, wasn't she. Maybe she didn't have enough restful time to recover from the childbirth. Everyone goes crazy with sleep deprivation.

 

[otto]

sbm for space

I am one of those advocates for natural birthing.
My first two kids I was young and had complications.
Even then, I wanted a natural birth and almost got it. :banghead:

With my next child hopefully next year, I fully intend on a natural, possibly water birth.

I've also been on the receiving end of a very close friend's phone call.
A friend who had a natural home birth, cloth diapers and breastfeeds.

There is nothing more chilling than hearing your friend say 3 weeks after giving birth:
"I am going to kill my baby. Please, help me."

The woman feels guilty killing a spider. She has no mental health issues.
She is one of a handful of people I would trust with my OWN baby. (That does not include any family members.)

When I got that phone call, there was no longer any doubt in my mind of the reality of PPD or PPP.
I took her 3 week old baby and she got help. If she hadn't called me? I won't go there.

She was fine up until that day. Much like Carbuff describes. She just suddenly had an urge to kill her child.
A child she tried for YEARS to conceive and wanted more than anything. "It was like a light switch."

I believe in many, many things... including advocating.

That includes advocating for mothers who don't dare admit they have PPP.

Recognizing that PPD/PPP can happen is not a step back from the battle for natural birth.
No, there is no medication to cure PPP.
Please, research it on your own if you'd like. Come to your own conclusions.

Just please, I ask you respectfully don't minimize it in the meantime.
As you can see from members here, it is very real... and to some very personal. :seeya:

I was just reading this research paper and it includes thoughts of infanticide in postpartum depression:

Infanticide secrets: qualitative study on postpartum depression.
Barr JA, Beck CT.
SourceQueensland University of Technology, Faculty of Health, Kelvin Grove, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. j.barr@qut.edu.au

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19074717

Conclusions

Women who experienced nonpsychotic depression preferred not to disclose their thoughts of infanticide to health professionals, including trusted general practitioners or psychiatrists. These women were more likely to mention their own suicidal thoughts than their infanticidal thoughts in order to obtain help. The morbidity and quality of life issues surrounding these distressing thoughts are key issues for depressed mothers. Our findings contribute to the current understanding of the nature of obsessional thoughts experienced by women with postpartum depression. Raising awareness helps to assist with early detection and assessment of infanticidal thoughts, resulting in effective treatment and support as required for recovery.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Was she going to church every day? Wow ... that sounds like a little too much influence, if you ask me. I would probably be psychotic if I had to obey the church people and attend daily meetings to prove it. Even 6 months after birth, isn't it important to still keep a fairly quiet "at home" lifestyle, especially when also raising an active 10 year old? She was in her late 30s, wasn't she. Maybe she didn't have enough restful time to recover from the childbirth. Everyone goes crazy with sleep deprivation.

Yes, it was stated in MSM they went to church everyday.

Just a little refresher for you of things we talked about earlier in the thread:

I made the mistake of watching the previews to the end time videos that the church was showing on Thursday nights. There are 14 videos total. One addresses the antichrist coming from the Holy Roman Empire. The bodies were found the day the pope was elected. The little boy was asking everyone he came into contact with to come to church on Thursday night.

The videos freaked me out. It was just a theory that this may have had some influence on a murder/suicide scenario. I was trying to imagine the effect these videos would have on someone that was mentally unstable. As time went on and I researched more, my mind started considering other bizarre theories.

I would post the link to the videos if anyone wants to watch the previews, but I'm not sure that would be a allowed link.

 

[otto]

Postpartum Psychosis:

Postpartum psychosis, the most severe of postpartum mental disorders, occurs in 1 to 2 of 1,000 births and frequently requires hospitalization to stabilize symptoms.8 The risk of postpartum psychosis rises to one in seven in mothers with a past episode of postpartum psychosis.3 Onset usually occurs within the first three months after childbirth, with a majority of cases appearing within 3 to 14 days.9 The disorder is characterized by an extended period of loss of contact with reality that may include auditory or visual hallucinations, delusions, or rapid mood swings. The auditory and visual hallucinations may focus on violence toward self or the infant.8 Studies show that women with postpartum psychosis are often victims of domestic violence or abusive childhoods and often have histories of abandonment or substance abuse.10

Risk factors for postpartum psychosis can be of both biologic and genetic origins.11 One study found that the rate of postpartum psychosis in mothers with bipolar disorder was 26 percent, with the rate in mothers with bipolar disorder and a family history of postpartum psychosis increasing to 57 percent.12

Several characteristics of postpartum psychosis differentiate it from psychosis of other etiologies. First, research supports that postpartum psychosis is associated with prominent cognitive disturbances, ranging from mental confusion and indecision to intrusive and bizarre thoughts.13 Women with this disorder can appear delirious and disorganized.14 Second, symptoms can arise and dissipate suddenly, with the woman appearing lucid one moment and psychotic the next.15 Third, although DSM-IV-TR classifies it as a psychotic disorder not otherwise specified,4 research shows that the syndrome can have both affective and psychotic components.16

http://www.jaapl.org/content/40/3/318.full

 

[otto]

Yes, it was stated in MSM they went to church everyday.

Just a little refresher for you of things we talked about earlier in the thread:

I made the mistake of watching the previews to the end time videos that the church was showing on Thursday nights. There are 14 videos total. One addresses the antichrist coming from the Holy Roman Empire. The bodies were found the day the pope was elected. The little boy was asking everyone he came into contact with to come to church on Thursday night.

The videos freaked me out. It was just a theory that this may have had some influence on a murder/suicide scenario. I was trying to imagine the effect these videos would have on someone that was mentally unstable. As time went on and I researched more, my mind started considering other bizarre theories.

I would post the link to the videos if anyone wants to watch the previews, but I'm not sure that would be a allowed link.

I've definitely been educated on postpartum psychosis! It sounds like there are usually problems prior to the onset of postpartum psychosis and it also sounds like it would be very difficult to deny that it was happening. In fact, everyone that the psychotic person comes in contact with should recognize that something is wrong. That said, if she was in a hyper-religious environment and everyone in that environment quietly encouraged somewhat imaginery beliefs - religious visions or whatever - maybe it went unnoticed. It's hard to say, but maybe she completely lost touch with reality and no one did anything about it.

 

[otto]

Thanks Otto, sounds interesting. I couldn't find any info, will look through some of my professional journals.

I've read a number of medical articles about postpartum psychosis and now understand it better, but I also understand that it is not something that happens to normal, healthy people with no history of problems. It sounds like there is almost always an existing problem that is triggered, or aggravated, by the childbirth. It also sounds like the characteristics of postpartum psychosis are so strange that they could not go unnoticed.

Everyone reports that she was a wonderful happy person, so I would think that either everyone is pretending, or she was not experiencing postpartum psychosis.

 

[necco]

I've read a number of medical articles about postpartum psychosis and now understand it better, but I also understand that it is not something that happens to normal, healthy people with no history of problems. It sounds like there is almost always an existing problem that is triggered, or aggravated, by the childbirth. It also sounds like the characteristics of postpartum psychosis are so strange that they could not go unnoticed.

Everyone reports that she was a wonderful happy person, so I would think that either everyone is pretending, or she was not experiencing postpartum psychosis.

Otto! I'm so impressed with your willingness to research and amend your opinion. Yes, PPP usually occurs in people with an underlying psychological condition, diagnosed or undiagnosed. It is quite rare. It is, as many things are, an unfortunate collision of situation, chemistry and genetics.

 

[cleo612]

Postpartum Psychosis:

Postpartum psychosis, the most severe of postpartum mental disorders, occurs in 1 to 2 of 1,000 births and frequently requires hospitalization to stabilize symptoms.8 The risk of postpartum psychosis rises to one in seven in mothers with a past episode of postpartum psychosis.3 Onset usually occurs within the first three months after childbirth, with a majority of cases appearing within 3 to 14 days.9 The disorder is characterized by an extended period of loss of contact with reality that may include auditory or visual hallucinations, delusions, or rapid mood swings. The auditory and visual hallucinations may focus on violence toward self or the infant.8 Studies show that women with postpartum psychosis are often victims of domestic violence or abusive childhoods and often have histories of abandonment or substance abuse.10

Risk factors for postpartum psychosis can be of both biologic and genetic origins.11 One study found that the rate of postpartum psychosis in mothers with bipolar disorder was 26 percent, with the rate in mothers with bipolar disorder and a family history of postpartum psychosis increasing to 57 percent.12

Several characteristics of postpartum psychosis differentiate it from psychosis of other etiologies. First, research supports that postpartum psychosis is associated with prominent cognitive disturbances, ranging from mental confusion and indecision to intrusive and bizarre thoughts.13 Women with this disorder can appear delirious and disorganized.14 Second, symptoms can arise and dissipate suddenly, with the woman appearing lucid one moment and psychotic the next.15 Third, although DSM-IV-TR classifies it as a psychotic disorder not otherwise specified,4 research shows that the syndrome can have both affective and psychotic components.16

http://www.jaapl.org/content/40/3/318.full

Bolded, italicized and underlined by me...

I think this part which I have highlighted with bold and underlining is a pertinent part to pay close attention to in regards to something as tragic as a mother killing her children with no advance or previous known warning signs.

 

[cleo612]

My understanding of PPP is that it can happen to ANY woman who has gone through childbirth.

It is much more prevalent among those who may have an underlying mental health condition, but to say that it cannot happen to someone who has never experienced any mental illness conditions previously is simply erroneous.

The act of childbirth itself is not what causes the condition--it is the release of certain complex hormones that causes PPD and PPP to occur. These hormones are released in every woman's body following childbirth--those pre-disposed to mental health issues and those NOT pre-disposed.

 

[fred&edna]

Here I go thinking aloud again...

Even though Mr. Clutter says he doesn't think it was murder/suicide, I find the lyrics of the song/hymn he reports she was singing (days before her death) interesting... particularly because I lean towards the murder/suicide theory.

She could have believed that through death she and her children would be joining Jesus... in her mind this would be their ultimate in protection without disconnection.

http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...er-says-his-family-s-death-not-murder-suicide

 

[CALIORBUST]

WOW.. I have not been on in days and feel so far behind..lol But well, another week has gone by...maybe that also means another week passed and closer to toxicology reports. Now that the victims have been laid to rest, I sure hope this doesn't become a "cold/colder" case and that LE is still hot on the trail looking for firm answers as to what happened and how! But I agree with this scenario...of them being "placed" in the creek at night. I would assume LE would be 100% accurate on whoever it is that spoke up and said they saw them 7-7:30am, time frame but it never has been said (that I could find) WHO SPECIFICALLY saw them. If this was an assisted type murder with someone else besides the mother, daytime seems very brave. There are houses around. One person putting 3 dead weight bodies (just an assumption) into a creek surely cant be an easy quick task. Then again, anytime before about 7:45am with the time change, it would have STILL been very dark.

BBM

Does that mean that he wasn't at work at 5:00 when the bodies were found?

I'm curious about 7:00-7:30 sighting of the victims ... whether that's written in stone, or whether it is possible that the victims were put in the park during the night.

 

[CALIORBUST]

Huh??

It is weird enough he may have stopped on his way to the police station, talked to cops about the deaths before it was declared a crime scene - I'm not saying this is a lie, the timing is just odd, but BBM does this sentence make sense to anyone?

I had never seen this link or "story" before. Going up Greybrook Lane (passing the park) from Sheffield Square Apartments is NOT the fastest route to the police station!! The main intersection is Daisy & Greybrook...Daisy leads to State Street which is where hospital is, police, fire station, etc.. Also, Country Club Drive which is what Sheffield Square is off of...goes straight down toward State Street also. Why on earth anyone would drive from the apartment, turn right and go down Greybrook Lane, passing the park only to then realize or get a call. From the start of all this, I thought he went home and discovered them missing but car and diaper bag there, called the pastor, then started to drive to the police station. WOULDNT YOU CALL 911?! Ugh.

 

[CALIORBUST]

You are correct in this, at least from everything I have found and read. I live right here and have been following this from the moment the sirens went blaring down my street that Wednesday before 6pm I believe it was, from the moment the police helicopters were circling my building and I was fearing for the safety of my kids and I...assuming some mass murderer was on the loose in my neighborhood. I was on all three of our main news sites website every few minutes...the whole night and into the next day. WLKY, WHAS11 AND WAVE3. The only picture showed from the VERY start was a fire truck and some LE, etc.. walking around and snow coming down. The car on the tow truck was not an initial picture. What picture IS HE TALKING ABOUT that that indicated to him it could have been them, etc.. and yes..someone else just said..did he call her phone? Guarantee if I walked in expecting someone, found car there and NO person, or something as simple as a mandatory diaper bag with an infant, YOU BET MY *advertiser censored* WOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH 911!! Even if they require 24 hours for missing persons cases....YOU CALL 9-9-1-1! Yes, there was also school that Wednesday. I have not heard what school he went to but my son would have been going to the same school as Brandon. I have not heard anything from teachers about loosing a student, etc.. that aspect of loss that you often sometimes soo. I wonder if he was in school or still being home schooled..

"And then whenever they showed me the pictures, I'm sure that quite a long distance away they heard me scream," said Clutter.

I thought the whole 'pictures' thing was odd... wold they ask him to identify the bodies that way?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I had never seen this link or "story" before. Going up Greybrook Lane (passing the park) from Sheffield Square Apartments is NOT the fastest route to the police station!! The main intersection is Daisy & Greybrook...Daisy leads to State Street which is where hospital is, police, fire station, etc.. Also, Country Club Drive which is what Sheffield Square is off of...goes straight down toward State Street also. Why on earth anyone would drive from the apartment, turn right and go down Greybrook Lane, passing the park only to then realize or get a call. From the start of all this, I thought he went home and discovered them missing but car and diaper bag there, called the pastor, then started to drive to the police station. WOULDNT YOU CALL 911?! Ugh.

Thanks! I wondered about this as well. Would he have been able to see the police activity at the park from the apartments or the road he would have turned onto when he left the apartment?

Also, do you know if there is a place that she could have crossed the creek to get to the park? I guess you would really have to be on the ground there to see if there is a small bridge, log or the creek narrows enough for you to cross it, over into the park.

 

[CALIORBUST]

I'm leaning toward murder suicide, if only because I believe a murderous husband would not choose a public waterway to kill his wife and children.

^^^^BBM

means it's opinion only. :moo:

That is though....if the person didn't want them to be out there too long, make sure they could be discovered quickly, etc... they may be more apt to have bodies in shallow public creek vs. further, hidden... there are plenty of lakes around here AND the Ohio River with many access points that would be considered private and/or hidden.

And just for the record, who talks to the MEDIA at the funeral of their "murdered" wife and kids?! WTF! Every photo of him is creepy to me, looking from the side, looking up with head down, kind of wide-eyed...maybe it's me...but regardless of what happened..how crappy of the media to try and grab an interview at the effin service!