IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

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I'm getting the impression that post partum psychosis requires the presence of some form of mental illness prior to pregnancy, and that this mental illness is aggravated during hormonal changes that are present during, and after, pregnancy. I think that there are an awful lot of women that would argue against any line of thinking that strictly equates psychosis with pregnancy, or states that women can become psychotic due to childbirth. Women have faught long and hard over the last couple of centuries to have childbirth defined as a normal bodily function; one that is natural and which should not be viewed as necessarily requiring medical intervention, or as something that causes psychotic mental illness.

I do believe that if a woman has a predisposition for psychotic behavior, then something like normal hormonal changes during, and after, childbirth could aggravate the problem.

Women are more at risk of severe mental illness after giving birth than at any other time in their lives.

------------------------------

The majority of women who have postpartum psychosis will have no family history of mental illness or experience of it themselves, experts say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19323695


If you have a family member with PPP or a history of mental health issues yourself, you ARE at higher risk for PPP.

However, the majority of women who actually have PPP do NOT have a history themselves.


We do tend to hear more about the ones who had a history of depression, because they seem so preventable.

PPP can happen to ANYONE. In a matter of a couple of days a woman can go from okay to psychotic. It's terrifying.


I don't believe that the members of Websleuths who dealt with PPP ever mentioned a previous history either.

Andrea Yates is not a typical example. Many people who may have ended up like her just stopped having babies. :twocents:
 
Does anyone know how to access the city planning and property line maps? I was just looking on google maps, google earth and bing maps and it looks like there is private property and a fence bordering the creek which would prevent anyone from walking from the Sheffield apartments to the playground area where she was found. I'd like to look more closely at the maps to see if there is any way that she could have crossed the creek anywhere except at the bridge where she and her children were found. If she could not have accessed that area by foot, then I really doubt that she would have walked along the road to the bridge to drown her children. She could have done that on the other side of the creek that was more easily accessible by foot from the apartments.
 
Women are more at risk of severe mental illness after giving birth than at any other time in their lives.

------------------------------

The majority of women who have postpartum psychosis will have no family history of mental illness or experience of it themselves, experts say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19323695


If you have a family member with PPP or a history of mental health issues yourself, you ARE at higher risk for PPP.

However, the majority of women who actually have PPP do NOT have a history themselves.


We do tend to hear more about the ones who had a history of depression, because they seem so preventable.

PPP can happen to ANYONE. In a matter of a couple of days a woman can go from okay to psychotic. It's terrifying.


I don't believe that the members of Websleuths who dealt with PPP ever mentioned a previous history either.

Andrea Yates is not a typical example. Many people who may have ended up like her just stopped having babies. :twocents:

I think it was Louis the XIV (1638 - 1715) that first proposed that women birth in a lithotomy position; on their backs, because he was curious about how babies were born. Marcel Mauriceau, the attending doctor, obliged Louis XIV's request and recommended that women lie on their backs during childbirth. Prior to that, women used various methods for delivering children that included birthing stools, birthing poles, walking, squating and so on. Two centuries later, women on both sides of the ocean (Europe and North America) routinely birthed in the lithotomy position.

This was not the only reason that women birthed on their backs. Eventually this position became necessary because of the high mortality rates of birthing women. Between 1850 - 1900, mortality rates during childbirth were sometimes as high as 23% per month due to puerperal fever, which is usually fatal for mother and child. This death rate gave support to the intervention from medical doctors as the purveyors of health and well being. What was not understood, at the time, was that doctors were routinely transferring illnesses, such as typhoid fever, to birthing women because of performiing autopsies in the morgue and then performing gynecological examinations on birthing women. Hygiene was not understood until Louis Pastuer formalized the relationship bewteen transferred germs and puerperal fever in 1879, so prior to that, medical professionals did not change clothes or wash up between the examinations.

You're probably wondering where I'm going with this. My point is that women, for centuries, birthed in natural positions (such as squatting) until cuirous men and medical doctors interferred. Due to that interference, the mortality rates of women and infants skyrocketed. It was believed that childbirth normally resulted in death and that there was a high mortality rate that should be associated with childbirth. That was incorrect. It has taken another 150 years to start the education process of having women return to birthing in natural position (not the lithotomy position), but that reversal - to what occurred for centuries prior to medical interference - has not yet fully occurred (and may never fully occur).

Women have strongly advocated for childbirth to be viewed as a normal part of life in order to birth in natural positions rather than those that are convenient for medical practitioners. It seems like these women are finally finding a stronger voice, and all of a sudden we have a new consequence of childbirth (a 20th century event) where women become psychotic due to childbirth.

I really have to question whether this concept is as bumbled as we have seen in the history of childbirth, with medical practitioners being ignorant of their responsibility for the high mortality rates in birthing women (for more than two centuries), or whether this is something real. If it is real, and childbirth results in psychosis, the I'm very curious when this relationship was first identified and why. Until I understand this new problem (new in the sense of contemporary), I am absolutely not prepared to believe that childbirth can result in psychosis. Out of curiousity, have pharmaceutical companies developed a cure for this psychosis?

Please don't misunderstand ... I am not discussing post-partum depression, I am strictly referring to the hypothesis that childbirth, with the exclusion of all other factors, can result in psychosis.
 
This is strictly my opinion, but I tend to view people with radical religious views as having some sort of personal issues such that they need radical religious views to manage their lives. Additionally, I have to wonder what sort of personal issues are present in people that gravitate towards radical religious beliefs. If I'm understanding correctly, this woman appears to have chosen to, or been conditioned to, rely heavily on religious beliefs and religious leadership to manage her life. That suggests to me that she did not trust herself to make good decisions, but instead required someone else to validate her thoughts and decisions. That, in itself, and in my opinion, makes it possible that she did have a mental break where she decided that it was better for the children to be with her God than to live a normal life. Still ... committing suicide in a puddle of water ... very difficult to understand.

Since she grew up in that religion I don't find it that odd. Her father is a pastor. I am interested in any possible differences there may have been in her family church and the church that she attended in New Albany. Was this new church a lot different? There is not much to see on her family church online but I found plenty on the New Albany one. Was it customary for her to attend church daily in Washington? Is it normal practice for members of the New Albany church to go there daily and pray? Or, was someone fighting some "demons".

BBM: Is it customary for members of this faith or others to be brought up to rely heavily on the religious beliefs and religious leaders of a church? I mentioned before that I have seen leaders before, that were questioned by a individual and they were quickly ganged up on by others. "How dare you question the elders, that is a sin." That's some scary sheet IMO, if you don't have a good leader or you are taught that it is wrong to question others or to have your own views and opinions.

Sorry, I'm not meaning to sound like I am bashing religion or anything. I have nothing against religion and it is very beneficial for many people. I haven't found the right fit for me yet. I am still searching. I have some issues. I am not a follower of others, I like to think independently and like to have my own opinions and I do not like any form of control. Such a rebel I am :blushing: I am actually fascinated by some of the points you made in your post as it relates to human behavior.

Also, just to note, I have yet to find a connection between her husbands family and this religion, so I don't know if he grew up in this faith or joined later in life. The family that I have found of his lives way north of there. I just haven't found his family connection with this church yet I guess.
 
I think it was Louis the XIV (1638 - 1715) that first proposed that women birth in a lithotomy position; on their backs, because he was curious about how babies were born. Marcel Mauriceau, the attending doctor, obliged Louis XIV's request and recommended that women lie on their backs during childbirth. Prior to that, women used various methods for delivering children that included birthing stools, birthing poles, walking, squating and so on. Two centuries later, women on both sides of the ocean (Europe and North America) routinely birthed in the lithotomy position.

This was not the only reason that women birthed on their backs. Eventually this position became necessary because of the high mortality rates of birthing women. Between 1850 - 1900, mortality rates during childbirth were sometimes as high as 23% per month due to puerperal fever, which is usually fatal for mother and child. This death rate gave support to the intervention from medical doctors as the purveyors of health and well being. What was not understood, at the time, was that doctors were routinely transferring illnesses, such as typhoid fever, to birthing women because of performiing autopsies in the morgue and then performing gynecological examinations on birthing women. Hygiene was not understood until Louis Pastuer formalized the relationship bewteen transferred germs and puerperal fever in 1879, so prior to that, medical professionals did not change clothes or wash up between the examinations.

You're probably wondering where I'm going with this. My point is that women, for centuries, birthed in natural positions (such as squatting) until cuirous men and medical doctors interferred. Due to that interference, the mortality rates of women and infants skyrocketed. It was believed that childbirth normally resulted in death and that there was a high mortality rate that should be associated with childbirth. That was incorrect. It has taken another 150 years to start the education process of having women return to birthing in natural position (not the lithotomy position), but that reversal - to what occurred for centuries prior to medical interference - has not yet fully occurred (and may never fully occur).

Women have strongly advocated for childbirth to be viewed as a normal part of life in order to birth in natural positions rather than those that are convenient for medical practitioners. It seems like these women are finally finding a stronger voice, and all of a sudden we have a new consequence of childbirth (a 20th century event) where women become psychotic due to childbirth.

I really have to question whether this concept is as bumbled as we have seen in the history of childbirth, with medical practitioners being ignorant of their responsibility for the high mortality rates in birthing women (for more than two centuries), or whether this is something real. If it is real, and childbirth results in psychosis, the I'm very curious when this relationship was first identified and why. Until I understand this new problem (new in the sense of contemporary), I am absolutely not prepared to believe that childbirth can result in psychosis. Out of curiousity, have pharmaceutical companies developed a cure for this psychosis?

Please don't misunderstand ... I am not discussing post-partum depression, I am strictly referring to the hypothesis that childbirth, with the exclusion of all other factors, can result in psychosis.

LOL you have never had a baby have you?

Maybe you have been close to someone pregnant. Did you notice during the pregnancy that they cried more often, maybe became angry more often? Were tired easily. That was a result of their hormones changing.

After birth the hormones change again. They change very rapidly and dramatically. And can cause just as much disruption. Some women handle it better than others. (You can also see the same types of changes in the premenstrual time period as well as at menopause but less dramatically.) Also with child birth you have sleep deprivation and the body is trying to repair itself from the physical strain from giving birth. The body is trying to cope with all of this as well as trying to keep house, care for a newborn and be a wife.

The brain is going through all of these changes too. And trying to cope. Sometimes there are difficulties. And believe me that is very much an understatement.
 
So here's my question about how she could have done this herself. In looking at the city zoning/planning maps, it looks like she could walk to the creek, but that she could not cross the creek to walk to the bridge except near the playground. It also looks like there is a fence along the properties along the North side of the creek and that it is not really possible to walk along that side of the creek to the bridge/playground area.

How did she get to that area if she walked from the Sheffield Apartments?

indianamap_zps047525a3.jpg


(the map is 800 pixels wide, with meets the website sizes, but please let me know if this is blowing margins ... it happens when people have zoomed their screens to more than 110%)

http://floydin.egis.39dn.com/#
 
Since she grew up in that religion I don't find it that odd. Her father is a pastor. I am interested in any possible differences there may have been in her family church and the church that she attended in New Albany. Was this new church a lot different? There is not much to see on her family church online but I found plenty on the New Albany one. Was it customary for her to attend church daily in Washington? Is it normal practice for members of the New Albany church to go there daily and pray? Or, was someone fighting some "demons".

BBM: Is it customary for members of this faith or others to be brought up to rely heavily on the religious beliefs and religious leaders of a church? I mentioned before that I have seen leaders before, that were questioned by a individual and they were quickly ganged up on by others. "How dare you question the elders, that is a sin." That's some scary sheet IMO, if you don't have a good leader or you are taught that it is wrong to question others or to have your own views and opinions.

Sorry, I'm not meaning to sound like I am bashing religion or anything. I have nothing against religion and it is very beneficial for many people. I haven't found the right fit for me yet. I am still searching. I have some issues. I am not a follower of others, I like to think independently and like to have my own opinions and I do not like any form of control. Such a rebel I am :blushing: I am actually fascinated by some of the points you made in your post as it relates to human behavior.

Also, just to note, I have yet to find a connection between her husbands family and this religion, so I don't know if he grew up in this faith or joined later in life. The family that I have found of his lives way north of there. I just haven't found his family connection with this church yet I guess.

I too find it to be an interesting subject. Radical religious people from some religions are brainwashed to believe that it is a good idea to blow up one's self, and that this suicidal act will be rewarded when they are dead. That one completely baffles me, but obviously people fall for it. Anyway, radical Christianity also has its pittfalls, one of which can be the inclination to blindly believe, rather than think and question. If this woman was a blind believer (and it sounds quite possible since her entire life involved an unquestioning belief in the power of religion), it wouldn't take much for someone to suggest that it was God's will that she baptize herself and her children in shallow water where they never breath again. What I mean is that radical religious beliefs can leave people vulnerable to suggestions - some of which could be very malicious.

I wonder if she kept a diary. Some extremely religious people seem to document their ideas through diary ... perhaps their letter to God (I really don't know).
 
Here's a article that touches on a few different aspects of PPP.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1330045/Post-natal-psychosis-Giving-birth-lose-mind.html

I had depression after I had my daughter, but there was a ton of other major stressers and trauma that happened prior, during and after I gave birth. Plus, I had prior history of depression. So, in my situation it would be nearly impossible IMO, for them to diagnose me with PPD or PPP if that had applied, due to my history.
 
LOL you have never had a baby have you?

Maybe you have been close to someone pregnant. Did you notice during the pregnancy that they cried more often, maybe became angry more often? Were tired easily. That was a result of their hormones changing.

After birth the hormones change again. They change very rapidly and dramatically. And can cause just as much disruption. Some women handle it better than others. (You can also see the same types of changes in the premenstrual time period as well as at menopause but less dramatically.) Also with child birth you have sleep deprivation and the body is trying to repair itself from the physical strain from giving birth. The body is trying to cope with all of this as well as trying to keep house, care for a newborn and be a wife.

The brain is going through all of these changes too. And trying to cope. Sometimes there are difficulties. And believe me that is very much an understatement.

Let's suppose all of that is true and it is also true that there is no running water, no bathtub, no hot water tap, no heat, no grocery store and none of the conveniences of modern life. How is it possible that childbirth only directly causes psychosis in our comfortable, contemporary society? I'm sure that some women find childbirth difficult to cope with, but clearly women today have it far easier than ever before ... so how can they be suffering more due to childbirth than in the past, and suffering so much that pregnancy today is responsible for psychosis?
 
"Odd and unexplainable things" that could be the result of her seeing and hearing things, as she is losing her grip on reality. But is the husband thick enough to really believe "strange things" were happening when it was just her illusions? Was he so willing to believe in Supernatural that he let her signs of psychosis be explained as something different?
 
Be careful what you wish for when you want to align psychosis with childbirth. It has also taken a couple of centuries to move past the idea that if a woman was depressed (after childbirth, or for any other reason) she should be permanently housed in an insane asylum and potentially treated with electroshock therapy. Psychologists have long held bizarre explanations and treatments for normal human behavior.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you...ing-stress-post-natal-depression-anxiety.html
 
"Odd and unexplainable things" that could be the result of her seeing and hearing things, as she is losing her grip on reality. But is the husband thick enough to really believe "strange things" were happening when it was just her illusions? Was he so willing to believe in Supernatural that he let her signs of psychosis be explained as something different?

I must have missed the article where her husband said that she was hallucinating. Do you have a link?

If she was hallucinating prior to the deaths, then it is quite likely that she is responsible and it is a murder/suicide.
 
LOL you have never had a baby have you?

Maybe you have been close to someone pregnant. Did you notice during the pregnancy that they cried more often, maybe became angry more often? Were tired easily. That was a result of their hormones changing.

After birth the hormones change again. They change very rapidly and dramatically. And can cause just as much disruption. Some women handle it better than others. (You can also see the same types of changes in the premenstrual time period as well as at menopause but less dramatically.) Also with child birth you have sleep deprivation and the body is trying to repair itself from the physical strain from giving birth. The body is trying to cope with all of this as well as trying to keep house, care for a newborn and be a wife.

The brain is going through all of these changes too. And trying to cope. Sometimes there are difficulties. And believe me that is very much an understatement.

I think Otto is a male, lol. Just the "monthly visitor" makes some of us borderline psychotic! Lol!
 
Thanks for the map otto. I had wondered also if there was a way for them to cross the creek. It's really hard to tell if there could be a little bridge anywhere along there. On google map view, all the trees are in full bloom. We need someone on the ground to answer that for us.

Look here on this map. See the path going from the street to the creek. It almost looks like it was mowed. I wonder if you can cross the creek there.

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Binford+Park,+New+Albany,+IN&hl=en&ll=38.302919,-85.82655&spn=0.001238,0.00191&sll=41.082613,-85.1509&sspn=0.230836,0.488892&oq=binford+park&t=h&hq=Binford+Park,+New+Albany,+IN&z=19"]Binford Park, New Albany, IN - Google Maps[/ame]
 
Let's suppose all of that is true and it is also true that there is no running water, no bathtub, no hot water tap, no heat, no grocery store and none of the conveniences of modern life. How is it possible that childbirth only directly causes psychosis in our comfortable, contemporary society? I'm sure that some women find childbirth difficult to cope with, but clearly women today have it far easier than ever before ... so how can they be suffering more due to childbirth than in the past, and suffering so much that pregnancy today is responsible for psychosis?

If we knew the answers to those questions like that society would be a much different place. Can we get back to finding out what happened to this woman and her kids?
 
I must have missed the article where her husband said that she was hallucinating. Do you have a link?

If she was hallucinating prior to the deaths, then it is quite likely that she is responsible and it is a murder/suicide.

That's not what I said. He said there were odd and unexplainable things that happened...he never said what they were. I am saying what if she heard things and saw things (IF she was experiencing psychosis) and reported them to him..., and he took them as real events, not hallucinations ...hey maybe he's a dude who doesn't believe in mental illness!!! Churches are full of those people.
 
I wondered about that too and looked for maps where the trees were bare. These are historical maps from 2002 and 2010. I can't see any bridge in that area and wondered if that trail was for walking on the North side of the creek heading West. Hopefully someone local can walk the area and let us know if it's even possible to walk from the Sheffield Apartments, with a 10 year old and a baby in a sling, to the bridge near the playground at Binford Park.

indianamap2_zps01f977af.jpg
 
That's not what I said. He said there were odd and unexplainable things that happened...he never said what they were. I am saying what if she heard things and saw things (IF she was experiencing psychosis) and reported them to him..., and he took them as real events, not hallucinations ...hey maybe he's a dude who doesn't believe in mental illness!!! Churches are full of those people.

The pastor supposedly quoting the father made the statement about the odd and explainable events. I'm not sure if there is another article out there where the father says this or not. I will keep looking.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...ent-where-woman-two-children-were-found-dead/
(CBS/AP) NEW ALBANY, Ind. - The family pastor for a southern Indiana woman found dead alongside her two children in a creek says the woman and her husband had seen "odd" and unexplainable things happen around their apartment complex during the time they lived there.
 
That's not what I said. He said there were odd and unexplainable things that happened...he never said what they were. I am saying what if she heard things and saw things (IF she was experiencing psychosis) and reported them to him..., and he took them as real events, not hallucinations ...hey maybe he's a dude who doesn't believe in mental illness!!! Churches are full of those people.
`

Ìf he said that there were odd and unexplainable events, that could be anything from hangup phone calls to things being misplaced in the apartment. I wonder if the locks were changed when they took over the apartment.
 
`

Ìf he said that there were odd and unexplainable events, that could be anything from hangup phone calls to things being misplaced in the apartment. I wonder if the locks were changed when they took over the apartment.

Right, and it could be other things too. Wish he would explain himself.
 

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