IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[The Cheese]

Michael said that the last two days Jaime was alive she was walking around the apartment singing a song called Falling in Love with Jesus.
http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...oman-two-children-found-dead-New-Albany-creek


Here are the lyrics

falling In Love With Jesus
falling In Love With Jesus
falling In Love With Jesus
was The Best Thing I Ever, Ever Done

in His Arms I Feel Protected
in His Arms Never Disconnected (No No)
in His Arms I Feel Protected
there's No Place I'd Rather Rather Be

http://www.lyricsmania.com/falling_in_love_with_jesus_lyrics_jonathan_butler.html


It sounds mournful and sad to me.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1QuYNmfxUw"]"Falling In Love With Jesus" by Jonathan Butler - YouTube[/ame]

• Reading the news articles with reports from neighbors, it sounds to me that Jaime lived a very isolated life. For a year, her husband was out of work.
  
• While he was out of work, she became pregnant, adding further strain and stress.
  
• For the last several months of her pregnancy, she had to stay in bed, adding more stress.
  
• The grandparents took the 10 yr old child, and Jaime lost one of the few people she regularly communicated with, causing more stress.
  
• Shortly after the baby was born, Jaime moved, further away from her family. More stress.
  
• Michael went back to work, and whereas Jaime had back the child she could communicate with regularly, she lost the adult she could communicate with during the day.
  
• Oddly, Jaime had been talking about working online so she could send her 10 yr old child to private school rather than homeschool him. The reason it's odd to me is all the talk of success of her homeschooling him, and the fact that he was one of the few people Jaime communicated with.
  
• After they moved to the new place, they reported "odd" and "unexplainable" things were happening. I do wonder what those odd things were, and whether Michael saw or experienced them, whether the little boy saw or experienced them, or whether just Jaime saw and experienced them.
  
• Finally, for the last two days of her life, Jaime walked around the apartment singing a song about how Jesus would make her no longer feel disconnected, and that there was no place she'd rather be than in his arms.

I think this is a tragic case of PPD/PPP and it makes me very sad, whether it led Jaime to harm her children intentionally or unintentionally.

My opinion may not be popular, but that's okay. I want people who are around women who've recently had babies to be more alert, more vigilant for the signs, and to get the woman help, because she may not be capable of getting help on her own, and the tragedies, when they happen, are such a terrible loss, and so terribly sad, and I think they could be averted.

:twocents:

ETA Just one more thing I wanted to add. I follow LE's lead in these cases. They have more info than I do. The children, particularly the baby, didn't take off their clothes die on their own. Someone brought about their deaths. Yet the prosecutor said there's no killer on the loose. I think that's because the killer is deceased. The only person capable of this I know of that's deceased, is sadly, Jaime.

:twocents:

 

[marycarney]

They didn't call it a homicide. They said they were treating the investigation as a homicide investigation. As cluciano said above, the children, especially the baby, didn't take off their clothes and accidentally fall in the creek, or commit suicide. :twocents:

I think most (if not all) LE treats every non-hospital death initially as a homicide. I worked a very sad home care / hospice case a couple years ago. Identical twin infants with a uniformly fatal genetic disease. Not ten minutes after I got off duty, twin #1 passed away. The parents called 9-1-1 in their distress, and the baby was transported to the local ER to be pronounced. Homicide detectives responded and questioned them - even with all the medical equipment in the home and all the paperwork from the hospice provider. It's just what they do.

The other baby died 36 hours later- same detective, much shorter sign-off.

 

[fred&edna]

Michael said that the last two days Jaime was alive she was walking around the apartment singing a song called Falling in Love with Jesus.
http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...oman-two-children-found-dead-New-Albany-creek


Here are the lyrics

falling In Love With Jesus
falling In Love With Jesus
falling In Love With Jesus
was The Best Thing I Ever, Ever Done

in His Arms I Feel Protected
in His Arms Never Disconnected (No No)
in His Arms I Feel Protected
there's No Place I'd Rather Rather Be

http://www.lyricsmania.com/falling_in_love_with_jesus_lyrics_jonathan_butler.html


It sounds mournful and sad to me.
"Falling In Love With Jesus" by Jonathan Butler - YouTube

• Reading the news articles with reports from neighbors, it sounds to me that Jaime lived a very isolated life. For a year, her husband was out of work.
  
• While he was out of work, she became pregnant, adding further strain and stress.
  
• For the last several months of her pregnancy, she had to stay in bed, adding more stress.
  
• The grandparents took the 10 yr old child, and Jaime lost one of the few people she regularly communicated with, causing more stress.
  
• Shortly after the baby was born, Jaime moved, further away from her family. More stress.
  
• Michael went back to work, and whereas Jaime had back the child she could communicate with regularly, she lost the adult she could communicate with during the day.
  
• Oddly, Jaime had been talking about working online so she could send her 10 yr old child to private school rather than homeschool him. The reason it's odd to me is all the talk of success of her homeschooling him, and the fact that he was one of the few people Jaime communicated with.
  
• After they moved to the new place, they reported "odd" and "unexplainable" things were happening. I do wonder what those odd things were, and whether Michael saw or experienced them, whether the little boy saw or experienced them, or whether just Jaime saw and experienced them.
  
• Finally, for the last two days of her life, Jaime walked around the apartment singing a song about how Jesus would make her no longer feel disconnected, and that there was no place she'd rather be than in his arms.

I think this is a tragic case of PPD/PPP and it makes me very sad, whether it led Jaime to harm her children intentionally or unintentionally.

My opinion may not be popular, but that's okay. I want people who are around women who've recently had babies to be more alert, more vigilant for the signs, and to get the woman help, because she may not be capable of getting help on her own, and the tragedies, when they happen, are such a terrible loss, and so terribly sad, and I think they could be averted.

:twocents:

ETA Just one more thing I wanted to add. I follow LE's lead in these cases. They have more info than I do. The children, particularly the baby, didn't take off their clothes die on their own. Someone brought about their deaths. Yet the prosecutor said there's no killer on the loose. I think that's because the killer is deceased. The only person capable of this I know of that's deceased, is sadly, Jaime.

:twocents:

I agree as the lyrics of the song caught my attention, too, as I posted about it earlier. I also think she possibly felt a great deal of pressure to be nearly perfect in the eyes of her husband and church, and she kept her worrisome feelings hidden from others fearing she would appear spiritually weak. (jmo)

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[time]

They could have been drowned at home and dumped in creek, there was a road right up to the spot, iirc someone mentioned . Isn't that a possible scenario ?

I see seattle beat me to it, but didn't they analyze the water in the lungs? I also thought they could have been drowned elsewhere or drugged and then taken to the creek (enough water in their lungs that it could be COD). Still not buying PPP/PPD as the cause. Also, it seems to me if they walked that far and were in the park where people could see them from the apts (?) that makes it less likely it all happened there.

Anyone know - were they living in a subsidized apt? Just wondering if that would be any reason Michael moved. Of course, maybe they were so low on money that he moved into a smaller/cheaper place. Seems odd that it was so quick still.

 

[Reader]

I see seattle beat me to it, but didn't they analyze the water in the lungs? I also thought they could have been drowned elsewhere or drugged and then taken to the creek (enough water in their lungs that it could be COD). Still not buying PPP/PPD as the cause. Also, it seems to me if they walked that far and were in the park where people could see them from the apts (?) that makes it less likely it all happened there.

Anyone know - were they living in a subsidized apt? Just wondering if that would be any reason Michael moved. Of course, maybe they were so low on money that he moved into a smaller/cheaper place. Seems odd that it was so quick still.

Agree, time, for the reasons given in previous posts...I just can't accept that this gentle, loving woman killed her children...Maybe, maybe, IF she was in as big a funk as some believe for various reasons, I could accept that she would commit suicide, but that is questionable due to her beliefs also. But not her children. I DK what happened but there were no signs or warnings of PPD/PPP as I understand it.

Will be perfectly ready to admit being wrong if and when the LE/prosecutor says what happened definitely.

time, don't know about the type of housing they had, but it seems that Mr. Clutter is now living with his mother in Portland, IN:

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As far as the investigation, I still remember Jaime's father saying it was much more complicated than it first appeared.

 

[Reader]

Found this resource for articles written about the case:

http://interceder.net/latest_news/Jaime-Clutter

 

[althea33161]

Huh? What is this about? I don't remember reading this previously.

Pastor: Husband saw "odd things" near Ind. apartment where woman, two children were found dead

The family pastor for a southern Indiana woman found dead alongside her two children in a creek says the woman and her husband had seen "odd" and unexplainable things happen around their apartment complex during the time they lived there.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...ent-where-woman-two-children-were-found-dead/

the pastor said MC said....heresay. not a fact? IMO

 

[tlcya]

Michael said that the last two days Jaime was alive she was walking around the apartment singing a song called Falling in Love with Jesus.
http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...oman-two-children-found-dead-New-Albany-creek


Here are the lyrics

falling In Love With Jesus
falling In Love With Jesus
falling In Love With Jesus
was The Best Thing I Ever, Ever Done

in His Arms I Feel Protected
in His Arms Never Disconnected (No No)
in His Arms I Feel Protected
there's No Place I'd Rather Rather Be

http://www.lyricsmania.com/falling_in_love_with_jesus_lyrics_jonathan_butler.html


It sounds mournful and sad to me.
"Falling In Love With Jesus" by Jonathan Butler - YouTube

• Reading the news articles with reports from neighbors, it sounds to me that Jaime lived a very isolated life. For a year, her husband was out of work.
  
• While he was out of work, she became pregnant, adding further strain and stress.
  
• For the last several months of her pregnancy, she had to stay in bed, adding more stress.
  
• The grandparents took the 10 yr old child, and Jaime lost one of the few people she regularly communicated with, causing more stress.
  
• Shortly after the baby was born, Jaime moved, further away from her family. More stress.
  
• Michael went back to work, and whereas Jaime had back the child she could communicate with regularly, she lost the adult she could communicate with during the day.
  
• Oddly, Jaime had been talking about working online so she could send her 10 yr old child to private school rather than homeschool him. The reason it's odd to me is all the talk of success of her homeschooling him, and the fact that he was one of the few people Jaime communicated with.
  
• After they moved to the new place, they reported "odd" and "unexplainable" things were happening. I do wonder what those odd things were, and whether Michael saw or experienced them, whether the little boy saw or experienced them, or whether just Jaime saw and experienced them.
  
• Finally, for the last two days of her life, Jaime walked around the apartment singing a song about how Jesus would make her no longer feel disconnected, and that there was no place she'd rather be than in his arms.

I think this is a tragic case of PPD/PPP and it makes me very sad, whether it led Jaime to harm her children intentionally or unintentionally.

My opinion may not be popular, but that's okay. I want people who are around women who've recently had babies to be more alert, more vigilant for the signs, and to get the woman help, because she may not be capable of getting help on her own, and the tragedies, when they happen, are such a terrible loss, and so terribly sad, and I think they could be averted.

:twocents:

ETA Just one more thing I wanted to add. I follow LE's lead in these cases. They have more info than I do. The children, particularly the baby, didn't take off their clothes die on their own. Someone brought about their deaths. Yet the prosecutor said there's no killer on the loose. I think that's because the killer is deceased. The only person capable of this I know of that's deceased, is sadly, Jaime.

:twocents:

Great post. I agree.

 

[MLO]

This case has made me so sad. Not just because three peoplemhavenlost their lives, but because of the attitude that PPP doesn't exist.

I've had it. I was convinced that my first baby hated me and she was out to get me. I still wondere how both of us survived it. every night I went to sleep thinking "I can't believe I got through the day without killing us" and every morning I woke up wondering if today was the day. I had no depression or mental health prior to it and no one knew a thing. My husband thought I was a fine, my mother thought I was doing great and couldn't believe how well I was coping and our child health nurse always told me I was the most cheerful mother she had ever met. It was all lies and a cover up. The only thing that preceeded it was moving states (away from my family) and birth.

I now have 4 children, and the only time I have been mentally unwell is while pregnant and after birth. I have mild PPD after babies 2-4 and antenatal depression with #4. Nothing between babies, and nothing since #4 was 6 months old. We have had some very stressful things happen- family deaths, children with illness (meningitis and recently a leukaemia scare), my husband being sent to Iraq 3 times, interstate moves- and each time I cope well with no signs of depression. the only trigger seems to be hormones from pregnancy and birth.

And I certainly don't see pregnancy and birth as anything other than natural or normal- as a homebirther and extended breast feeder, nothing could be more natural, normal or easy to me than child bearing.

I do think this mother could have had PPD and no one notice. I do think it could have changed to PPP without even the mother realising, even when I had it I adored and enjoyed my child and continued to appear loving and intune with her. I imagine if I started going to church daily, talking to a pastor daily and praying for anything my husband would have had me locked up quick smart. In a family who seems fairly extreme in their religious views, I imagine that would have come across as being a good believer.

 

[marycarney]

This case has made me so sad. Not just because three peoplemhavenlost their lives, but because of the attitude that PPP doesn't exist.

I've had it. I was convinced that my first baby hated me and she was out to get me. I still wondere how both of us survived it. every night I went to sleep thinking "I can't believe I got through the day without killing us" and every morning I woke up wondering if today was the day. I had no depression or mental health prior to it and no one knew a thing. My husband thought I was a fine, my mother thought I was doing great and couldn't believe how well I was coping and our child health nurse always told me I was the most cheerful mother she had ever met. It was all lies and a cover up. The only thing that preceeded it was moving states (away from my family) and birth.

I now have 4 children, and the only time I have been mentally unwell is while pregnant and after birth. I have mild PPD after babies 2-4 and antenatal depression with #4. Nothing between babies, and nothing since #4 was 6 months old. We have had some very stressful things happen- family deaths, children with illness (meningitis and recently a leukaemia scare), my husband being sent to Iraq 3 times, interstate moves- and each time I cope well with no signs of depression. the only trigger seems to be hormones from pregnancy and birth.

And I certainly don't see pregnancy and birth as anything other than natural or normal- as a homebirther and extended breast feeder, nothing could be more natural, normal or easy to me than child bearing.

I do think this mother could have had PPD and no one notice. I do think it could have changed to PPP without even the mother realising, even when I had it I adored and enjoyed my child and continued to appear loving and intune with her. I imagine if I started going to church daily, talking to a pastor daily and praying for anything my husband would have had me locked up quick smart. In a family who seems fairly extreme in their religious views, I imagine that would have come across as being a good believer.

BBM: Amen! Well said and thank you so much for being willing to share your experience with us.

 

[cluciano63]

I am really perplexed by the number of cases lately where cause of death can't seem to be confirmed. What happens if tox shows nothing? Also happening in the cases of Jennifer R., Elisa Lamm, Robin Pope, and a case I can't think of just now. All seem to be relying on tox.

 

[michmi]

Just because some of us are having trouble accepting that JC might have had PPD/PPP doesn't mean we think it doesn't exist. I am well aware of it and how devastating it is to a mother, I just don't think it figures into this case at all.

Also, I don't think their apartments were subsidized housing. There is a subsidized complex in the area, but they didn't live there.

I'm assuming MC gave up his job? That's not really a commuting distance.

 

[ShyViolet]

Just because some of us are having trouble accepting that JC might have had PPD/PPP doesn't mean we think it doesn't exist. I am well aware of it and how devastating it is to a mother, I just don't think it figures into this case at all.

Also, I don't think their apartments were subsidized housing. There is a subsidized complex in the area, but they didn't live there.

I'm assuming MC gave up his job? That's not really a commuting distance.

BBM. There was some discussion earlier that there was no such thing, but you may have missed it.

 

[mrsu]

I wonder if the LE have thoroughly spoken to the pastor and checked him out. Not accusing, but it would be the perfect opportunity for him to insert himself and steer ideas a certain way. Just another thought. Maybe the 7:30 sighting was at church???

 

[MsFacetious]

I am beginning to rethink my opinion that this was not PPD/PPP. :waitasec:

The similarities between this case and other PPD/PPP cases are a little odd.

Specifically Andrea Yates.

1. The excessive religious aspect. (In my opinion.)

2. The homeschooling (Don't jump on me, I home school, just pointing out a similarity!)

3. The youngest child was a daughter.

4. The daughter was 6 months old in both cases.

5. Both cases happened shortly after the father left for work.

6. Both were drownings.

7. Both mothers were 35/36 years old.

8. Both cases occurred less than 3 weeks before the mother's birthdays.

9. Both mothers were in "caring" professions or volunteer work at one point.

http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm


I am beginning to wonder if maybe there WAS some depression going on with Jamie and people just didn't know it.

It has happened before, it wouldn't be the first time someone killed without anyone seeing a problem.

However, there is also the possibility that it is a situation like Andrea Yates.
Maybe her husband was aware of the issues and disregarded it.
Andrea was specifically warned NOT to have more children... and her husband convinced her to do so anyway.

If Jamie DID have a history of depression and only her husband knew about it... would he admit that or deny it?

What about the daughter? Did having a daughter made Jamie realize things about herself or her life?

There are so many variables to what can go on in a person's mind... and everyone is so different...

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I personally don't disagree that PPD/PPP exists. It's the matter of trying to distinguish that it was the cause of someone killing their child. If this were a criminal case, where the mother was still alive, we would be dealing with a mother, any mother using this as a defense. With absolutely 0 evidence of it, that we know about so far, I doubt it would fly with a jury. So far the scenario is mother, 10? year old child and 6 month old baby:

Were found in freezing cold temperatures in a shallow creek in a park blocks from their home, all completely naked with a bible in a sling hanging from a tree. Somehow the mother had to drown the children, one of which was ten and then somehow kill herself. This is a pretty bizarre way to go out even with PPP.

So far there has been no indication whatsoever that she had any issues with depression previous or present. Furthermore, to do what was done, she would have to have PPP. The symptoms can not go unnoticed with PPP. Six months is a long time for no one to notice. The PPD/PPP is pure speculation, until further info is released.

Do I think that because of her religion, she may not seek conventional medical care, yes. Do I think that they would go to the church for healing to get rid of her demons, yes.
Do I think the church would not admit to this because of possible bad publicity, yes.
So we have her parents, husband and pastor, all with the same religious beliefs saying she was happy and fine. "If" Jaime did this, how she managed I don't know, then some people need to come clean if she was having any struggles.

The only statement so far that has been made that was unusual is the "odd and unexplainable things going on around the apartment."

I won't buy that the mother did this unless they give me more concrete evidence. I may still have a hard time buying it, depending on what is stated or released.

It wouldn't be the first time or will it be the last that LE has said they don't feel like there is a danger to the public and a murderer is running around loose. They sometimes say this if they feel someone is targeting for a specific reason or just not to frighten the public. This whole thing is just really bizarre.

I still want to know why they moved there to attend that church.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Agreeing with you, B-Luck. In a post near the start of the thread was an MSM link stating water was found in their lungs.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9046076#post9046076"]IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Am I correct in understanding that they have not released what kind of water (e.g., creek, bathtub)?

I believe they said there was no trauma to the kids, but Jaime looked battered. Would it have been possible to get DNA from under the nails of the son after being in the creek?

It just seems so unlikely -- not impossible, but unlikely, imo -- that a woman could drown two children -- one of them a 10-year-old boy -- and herself -- in daylight -- in a public park -- without someone hearing a commotion (even if they didn't see anything).

And that to me is the key difference between Jaime and Andrea Yates -- Yates drowned her kids, not herself -- at home, not in a creek in a public park.

Jaime appeared battered -- how? Scratches on her face, arms, neck, as if someone was fighting her off? Or black eyes and other bruising, as if she'd been beaten? Is a creek likely to move her fast enough to be bruised on rocks? If so, why weren't the kids (weighing less than their mom) bruised?

Has anyone (not counting the husband and father) said they talked directly to Jaime about the odd things around the apartment?

What if Jaime thought the whole family was going to commit suicide to escape the perceived threat of the odd occurrances, which could have been nothing but (through the lens of their beliefs) appeared to be a nefarious sign?

This is all purely speculation and my questions are asked hypothetically/rhetorically while I sit waiting for a plane.

ETA: Link to post with 911 call referencing condition of Jaime's body

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9069382#post9069382"]IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek - Page 6 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

I personally don't disagree that PPD/PPP exists. It's the matter of trying to distinguish that it was the cause of someone killing their child. If this were a criminal case, where the mother was still alive, we would be dealing with a mother, any mother using this as a defense. With absolutely 0 evidence of it, that we know about so far, I doubt it would fly with a jury. So far the scenario is mother, 10? year old child and 6 month old baby:

Were found in freezing cold temperatures in a shallow creek in a park blocks from their home, all completely naked with a bible in a sling hanging from a tree. Somehow the mother had to drown the children, one of which was ten and then somehow kill herself. This is a pretty bizarre way to go out even with PPP.

So far there has been no indication whatsoever that she had any issues with depression previous or present. Furthermore, to do what was done, she would have to have PPP. The symptoms can not go unnoticed with PPP. Six months is a long time for no one to notice. The PPD/PPP is pure speculation, until further info is released.

Do I think that because of her religion, she may not seek conventional medical care, yes. Do I think that they would go to the church for healing to get rid of her demons, yes.
Do I think the church would not admit to this because of possible bad publicity, yes.
So we have her parents, husband and pastor, all with the same religious beliefs saying she was happy and fine. "If" Jaime did this, how she managed I don't know, then some people need to come clean if she was having any struggles.

The only statement so far that has been made that was unusual is the "odd and unexplainable things going on around the apartment."

I won't buy that the mother did this unless they give me more concrete evidence. I may still have a hard time buying it, depending on what is stated or released.

It wouldn't be the first time or will it be the last that LE has said they don't feel like there is a danger to the public and a murderer is running around loose. They sometimes say this if they feel someone is targeting for a specific reason or just not to frighten the public. This whole thing is just really bizarre.

I still want to know why they moved there to attend that church.

 

[time]

Just because some of us are having trouble accepting that JC might have had PPD/PPP doesn't mean we think it doesn't exist. I am well aware of it and how devastating it is to a mother, I just don't think it figures into this case at all.

Also, I don't think their apartments were subsidized housing. There is a subsidized complex in the area, but they didn't live there.

I'm assuming MC gave up his job? That's not really a commuting distance.

Yes, totally agree... I'm not saying (and I don't think most are saying) PPP/PPD doesn't exist, just that I do not think that is what occurred in this case. No reason to keep trying to convince most of us that it exists or get mad about it. I know someone who at least had PPD and know full well about it.

(thanks for the info about the apartments and someone else for telling us MC moved in with his mom)

 

[althea33161]

I personally don't disagree that PPD/PPP exists. It's the matter of trying to distinguish that it was the cause of someone killing their child. If this were a criminal case, where the mother was still alive, we would be dealing with a mother, any mother using this as a defense. With absolutely 0 evidence of it, that we know about so far, I doubt it would fly with a jury. So far the scenario is mother, 10? year old child and 6 month old baby:

Were found in freezing cold temperatures in a shallow creek in a park blocks from their home, all completely naked with a bible in a sling hanging from a tree. Somehow the mother had to drown the children, one of which was ten and then somehow kill herself. This is a pretty bizarre way to go out even with PPP.

So far there has been no indication whatsoever that she had any issues with depression previous or present. Furthermore, to do what was done, she would have to have PPP. The symptoms can not go unnoticed with PPP. Six months is a long time for no one to notice. The PPD/PPP is pure speculation, until further info is released.

Do I think that because of her religion, she may not seek conventional medical care, yes. Do I think that they would go to the church for healing to get rid of her demons, yes.
Do I think the church would not admit to this because of possible bad publicity, yes.
So we have her parents, husband and pastor, all with the same religious beliefs saying she was happy and fine. "If" Jaime did this, how she managed I don't know, then some people need to come clean if she was having any struggles.

The only statement so far that has been made that was unusual is the "odd and unexplainable things going on around the apartment."

I won't buy that the mother did this unless they give me more concrete evidence. I may still have a hard time buying it, depending on what is stated or released.

It wouldn't be the first time or will it be the last that LE has said they don't feel like there is a danger to the public and a murderer is running around loose. They sometimes say this if they feel someone is targeting for a specific reason or just not to frighten the public. This whole thing is just really bizarre.

I still want to know why they moved there to attend that church.

Thank YOU, BeginnersLuck. this is the most objective post I have read out of the 500+ related to this. Again: i am local to crime, was raised Penticostal in this area, & have been a midwife/women's health advocate. to focus on PPD is the equivelent to me as focusing on heresay, or someone's very subjective speculation. Yes, the "facts of this case are sketchy, at best, and are tending towards contradictory...1) the "strange things" were quoted by the good Pastor Nichols, who also quoted that the Sunday prior to her murder, JC had told him she was "happier than she had ever been".2)a family that has had no income for 18-24 months CAN NOT travel from Wa. to IN.(>3,000mls) 3 or 4 times, yet Nichols has also said, "they visited the church a few times a year". since rosemary valentine, MC's mom, lives roughly 180 miles away from GF church, wonder who this family of four stayed with while visiting the church, when they had no $$. Who sponsored them during the first weeks in their new apt. while waiting for MC's first paycheck? Bill Pink is a pastor, so I can assume he is not loaded with cash to fund this move. The Clutter's could not have sold their house prior to the move, because they would not have been making mortgage payments.3) first Knable said the children drowned, water found in lungs;now she says water found in all three on 4-4-13. JC came to me in a dream a few nights ago. she was under water, but not deep, & she said, "keep searching". I have since contacted Prosecutor Hendrick's office, Floyd Co. Coroners office, local FBI, and sent e-mail to FBI Criminal Investigation on Crimes Against Children in Washington DC. I was told that COD on JC would come from Jefferson Co. Coroner in Louisville, by the Floyd Co. Coroner's office. the FBI WILL NOT investigate, unless they are asked by the local LE to get involved. I went to GF church on Easter. MC did not attend this sevice & it was a typical, exhuberant penticostal show staring the charismatic Pastor Nichols performing for a packed house...I can tell you, the membership of this church is large & wealthy & there were moments when it seemed the congregation was is a hypnotic state of worship. during the "alter call" at the end of the sevice, more than 1/2 went forward with much speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, & about a dozen folks "slain in the spirit"(this is where after the pastor prays for them & annoints their forehead with oil, the fall backwards in convulsions, as they recieve their divine healing) i won't go back, but wanted to see if it was the same as i thought it was...IMO, I just pray JC & her babies can RIP soon.

 

[The Cheese]

Agreeing with you, B-Luck. In a post near the start of the thread was an MSM link stating water was found in their lungs.

IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Am I correct in understanding that they have not released what kind of water (e.g., creek, bathtub)?

I believe they said there was no trauma to the kids, but Jaime looked battered. Would it have been possible to get DNA from under the nails of the son after being in the creek?

It just seems so unlikely -- not impossible, but unlikely, imo -- that a woman could drown two children -- one of them a 10-year-old boy -- and herself -- in daylight -- in a public park -- without someone hearing a commotion (even if they didn't see anything).

And that to me is the key difference between Jaime and Andrea Yates -- Yates drowned her kids, not herself -- at home, not in a creek in a public park.

Jaime appeared battered -- how? Scratches on her face, arms, neck, as if someone was fighting her off? Or black eyes and other bruising, as if she'd been beaten? Is a creek likely to move her fast enough to be bruised on rocks? If so, why weren't the kids (weighing less than their mom) bruised?

Has anyone (not counting the husband and father) said they talked directly to Jaime about the odd things around the apartment?

What if Jaime thought the whole family was going to commit suicide to escape the perceived threat of the odd occurrances, which could have been nothing but (through the lens of their beliefs) appeared to be a nefarious sign?

This is all purely speculation and my questions are asked hypothetically/rhetorically while I sit waiting for a plane.

ETA: Link to post with 911 call referencing condition of Jaime's body

IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek - Page 6 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

BBM

It was the 911 caller, who couldn't see the bodies well (thought they were mannequins), that said the adult female body looked "beat and cut up".

However, when the coroner examined the bodies at the scene, she said there no visible injuries.

After the autopsies, when the bodies could be examined internally, the coroner said they had injuries from being in the water.

:twocents:

911 call
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she said there were no visible injuries

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/woman-2-children-wash-found-dead-indiana-creek/nWsDg/

Southern Indiana officials continue investigating the deaths of a mother and two children whose bodies were found Wednesday in a creek that winds through Binford Park.

Floyd County Coroner Leslie Knable said Friday that autopsy results showed they suffered injuries consistent with having been in water.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130315/NEWS02/303150034/Coroner-Mom-2-kids-found-creek-may-drowned