Is JBR's killer alive or dead?

[DeeDee249]

For the same exact reason OJ Simpson is not guilty of murder because, quite simply, the "glove did not fit".

The glove DID fit- before it was soaked with the victims' blood and allowed to dry that way. Try soaking one of your own leather gloves and letting it dry and then try to put it on OVER latex gloves (as OJ did). Believe me, it won't go on over your hand.

 

[madeleine]

I think the poster means that officially it "didn't" so it doesn't matter if we all know the truth (that it DID)....that's exactly what would happen to DNA in the JB case if it ever goes to trial (IDI).

At THIS point yeah,IDI's might feel good because they can throw the DNA in everybody.s faces....so be it......it's just an illusion.Reality will be different in a courtroom if someone will be charged,don't think we'll see it happen though.Ever.Cause there is no mistery superman intruder.IMO

 

[madeleine]

I agree with you one million percent..if they didnt actually kill her (big IF ) then they know who did...and there is NO CHANCE that they are covering for a stranger....even if it was an acquaintance, they wouldn't have defended him/her sooooo strongly for all these years...which takes me back to the three whom we know, for a fact, were at the house that night....the question to me is not: is it one of these 3 or not??? the question is" which one of them???

I agree,you wouldn't do it for an acquintance.....what about a very close friend?Maybe one R and a friend were in it together,you never know.Take a look at the Stine's behaviour after the crime for example,really bizarre IMO.

The thing is the Ramsey's KNEW right from the start that it WASN'T a SFF.So if they knew who it wasn't that would make me believe they knew who it WAS.

I often wonder and change my mind re "which of them".Maybe it's not even that important anymore.I would more like to know who else knows about it and why he/she/they're NOT talking?

Why did JR say there were a lot of people in the basement at 3am?
Why did he say he found JB at 11am?
Why did they call their friends over?
Why did they hire an attorney for a 9years old?



It's hard for me to believe that a parent would cover for the other when it comes to such a crime.Everything that happened makes me believe they were both in it.I just don't know how,who was responsible for what.Maybe the simplest explanation would be that they were covering for the son,I don't know,I never gave much thought to BDI but it would at least make some sense.(BDI+parents protecting him)

 

[Ripley007]

If the Randsom note fits you must CONVICT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JMHO

 

[Ripley007]

no matter what you think of little 9 years old at time, Burke, he most CERTAINLY didn't copy mommy's linguistic style and write the randsom note.............

 

[UKGuy]

no matter what you think of little 9 years old at time, Burke, he most CERTAINLY didn't copy mommy's linguistic style and write the randsom note.............

Ripley007,
An astute observation. The forensic evidence suggests that there was more than one killer of JonBenet. Coroner Meyer deliberately alludes to this in his Autopsy Report, where he outlines the cause the of death.

Mommy probably came up with the wine-cellar staging, and the ransom note, when she vetoed JR's plan to dump JonBenet outdoors?

The million dollar question is did PR think JR was abusing JonBenet?


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[Chrishope]

Ripley007,
An astute observation. The forensic evidence suggests that there was more than one killer of JonBenet. Coroner Meyer deliberately alludes to this in his Autopsy Report, where he outlines the cause the of death.

Mommy probably came up with the wine-cellar staging, and the ransom note, when she vetoed JR's plan to dump JonBenet outdoors?

The million dollar question is did PR think JR was abusing JonBenet?


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I find it hard to believe anyone could veto JR's decision. If JR decided to dump the body, I don't think PR was going to stop him. If she was a co-conspirator (which I strongly doubt) I don't see why she'd want to stop him. Getting rid of the body is the best way to sell the kidnapping scenario.

If PR was a co-conspirator how could she not know about the sexual abuse?

It's hard to see a mother covering for an accidental sex murder when she had no prior knowledge of the abuse.

 

[questfortrue]

The interview between Tom Haney and PR regarding knowledge of sexual abuse may reveal something. http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-sexual-abuse.htm For me, when Haney first introduces the idea to PR she seems to shut down or go into a tight controlled response. He even has to prod her whether she is shocked about this. Then there is a break and PR seems to regroup and demands to see the evidence of this abuse. And she plays a more “shocked” role. My take: She knew and she wants to know if they really have evidence or not. Though the R’s lawyers could attempt to discount this evidence with their own experts, the experts (majority IIRC) contacted by BPD and DA, who were knowledgeable about evidence of chronic sexual abuse, were what Haney was referring to. If it were simply hearsay evidence (from one of their ex-friends?), that’s a whole different thing and PR knows that hearsay evidence could be totally discounted by throwing the ex-friends under the bus. Moo.

 

[UKGuy]

I find it hard to believe anyone could veto JR's decision. If JR decided to dump the body, I don't think PR was going to stop him. If she was a co-conspirator (which I strongly doubt) I don't see why she'd want to stop him. Getting rid of the body is the best way to sell the kidnapping scenario.

If PR was a co-conspirator how could she not know about the sexual abuse?

It's hard to see a mother covering for an accidental sex murder when she had no prior knowledge of the abuse.

Chrishope,
It could have taken place, there is no forensic evidence that denies this possibility.

Patsy may not have known that JonBenet was abused that night. JonBenet's injuries may have been sold to her under another guise.

If you give it some thought ignorance on Patsy's part could indeed allow her to participate in the staging?

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[midwest mama]

In response to this poll/thread, I believe JB's killer is alive.

As for Patsy knowing about JB's previous chronic molestation - she knew.
She said she did laundry. If she laundered JB's underwear, she knew.
She had taken JB to the DR. for vaginal disorders - she knew.
Patsy was questioned by the police about creams being used for vaginal discomfort on JB - she knew.
Patsy's mother slept in JB's room when Patsy was being treated, and after JB's death Nedra was said to have commented about JB being "a little bit molested" (or similar words) - Patsy knew.
JB's teachers said JB got clingy to Patsy the last couple of months before the murder. Patsy knew.

What Patsy knew and what she wanted to believe were what was causing the household disruption. And I believe that Patsy would not have confronted JR about it if she suspected him as those 1996 holiday months were unfolding - but might have been extra watchful and suspicious until she had all the evidence she would have needed.

But since Burke was also in therapy both before and after JB's death, it is not impossible to believe that Patsy thought she was taking care of part of the problem. Patsy might have wanted to keep her eyes wide shut, but, SHE KNEW!

 

[UKGuy]

In response to this poll/thread, I believe JB's killer is alive.

As for Patsy knowing about JB's previous chronic molestation - she knew.
She said she did laundry. If she laundered JB's underwear, she knew.
She had taken JB to the DR. for vaginal disorders - she knew.
Patsy was questioned by the police about creams being used for vaginal discomfort on JB - she knew.
Patsy's mother slept in JB's room when Patsy was being treated, and after JB's death Nedra was said to have commented about JB being "a little bit molested" (or similar words) - Patsy knew.
JB's teachers said JB got clingy to Patsy the last couple of months before the murder. Patsy knew.

What Patsy knew and what she wanted to believe were what was causing the household disruption. And I believe that Patsy would not have confronted JR about it if she suspected him as those 1996 holiday months were unfolding - but might have been extra watchful and suspicious until she had all the evidence she would have needed.

But since Burke was also in therapy both before and after JB's death, it is not impossible to believe that Patsy thought she was taking care of part of the problem. Patsy might have wanted to keep her eyes wide shut, but, SHE KNEW!

midwest mama,
Patsy told us that Burke and JonBenet would share a bedroom or bed, but she said that in the context of JonBenet wetting the bed.

Patsy was patently not watching very well on 12/25 since someone slipped into JonBenet's bedroom, resulting molestation and asphyxiation.

Maybe she was watching the wrong person, or if she already knew, was resigned to the problem?


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[midwest mama]

QUOTE=UKGuy

Patsy told us that Burke and JonBenet would share a bedroom or bed, but she said that in the context of JonBenet wetting the bed.

So, was Patsy telling the truth this time? Deflection, IMHO.

Patsy was patently not watching very well on 12/25 since someone slipped into JonBenet's bedroom, resulting molestation and asphyxiation.

True. It's hard to stay awake when exhaustion from holiday activities set in.

Maybe she was watching the wrong person, or if she already knew, was resigned to the problem?

Both are possibilities, IMO. Was it also possible if she was 'resigned' to the problem, it could have been only temporarily - until the holiday observations were past, and also the Disney trip. She might have felt waiting until after things settled down, and the kids had a chance to enjoy the season, she would push for a resolve to the problems.

 

[UKGuy]

QUOTE=UKGuy

So, was Patsy telling the truth this time? Deflection, IMHO.



True. It's hard to stay awake when exhaustion from holiday activities set in.



Both are possibilities, IMO. Was it also possible if she was 'resigned' to the problem, it could have been only temporarily - until the holiday observations were past, and also the Disney trip. She might have felt waiting until after things settled down, and the kids had a chance to enjoy the season, she would push for a resolve to the problems.

midwest mama,

So, was Patsy telling the truth this time? Deflection, IMHO.

Absolutely! Patsy need not implicate Burke in any manner what so ever, silence should have been her response in regard to Burke.

So deflection it must be, alike the size-12's Patsy is playing out some grand chess game, but she is possibly not in full posession of the facts?

She might have felt waiting until after things settled down, and the kids had a chance to enjoy the season, she would push for a resolve to the problems.

I reckon Patsy never saw it as a big issue, just a problem to be confronted sometime in the future, after all, according to LHP it was not behaviour unknown to either BR or JonBenet?

Then it blew up in their faces late night 12/25. The time gap between injuries might represent prior attempts at staging, moving JonBenet's to her own bedroom, if she had been in another bedroom, before the head injury and asphyxiation were applied.

One aspect I have never considered before is how JR and BR are critically coupled. Since their alibi that night is that they were together down in the basement, of all places.

Patsy is left isolated upstairs.

It could be JDI but the amateur manner in which JonBenet arrived in the wine-cellar. The coma, the head injury and the asphyxiation all lend themselves more to a BDI theory.

The phrase schoolboy error might have been invented for this case?


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[smurf86]

Killers alive

 

[Carioca]

Voted yes, IMO he is still alive.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,

Absolutely! Patsy need not implicate Burke in any manner what so ever, silence should have been her response in regard to Burke.

So deflection it must be, alike the size-12's Patsy is playing out some grand chess game, but she is possibly not in full posession of the facts?


I reckon Patsy never saw it as a big issue, just a problem to be confronted sometime in the future, after all, according to LHP it was not behaviour unknown to either BR or JonBenet?

Then it blew up in their faces late night 12/25. The time gap between injuries might represent prior attempts at staging, moving JonBenet's to her own bedroom, if she had been in another bedroom, before the head injury and asphyxiation were applied.

One aspect I have never considered before is how JR and BR are critically coupled. Since their alibi that night is that they were together down in the basement, of all places.

Patsy is left isolated upstairs.

It could be JDI but the amateur manner in which JonBenet arrived in the wine-cellar. The coma, the head injury and the asphyxiation all lend themselves more to a BDI theory.

The phrase schoolboy error might have been invented for this case?


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BBM The accounts written about John and Burke assembling a toy together place them on the main floor - living room, near the Christmas tree, IIRC. Your observation that we are supposed to consider John and Burke being together for a period of time, away from Patsy while she is alone with JB, does lead to interesting thought. Then, Patsy is supposed to have gone about more packing chores, while John and Burke continue to ready Burke for bed (without Patsy knowing for sure), yet Patsy is then said to be in bed ahead of JR arriving there for some quick reading after taking his melatonin.

If Patsy was busy gathering clothing from JB's and Burke's room, or even the laundry area there on the children's floor, then taking things to JAR's room to put with things for the Disney trip, at the same time JR and Burke would have come up to put Burke to bed, how did they avoid running into each other on that floor? Wouldn't Patsy have had to complete her packing chores and made it to bed before Burke and JR came up and went through the bedtime thing?

If we are to believe the R's, then JB was carried to bed, Patsy got her tucked in, worked on the Disney trip for a bit while JR and Burke were working on the toy in the living room, but Patsy went off to bed prior to JR and Burke coming up, and JR then going to his room where Patsy was already in bed. The last person up and around then, according to their own reports, would have been JR. Not saying that the kids could not have then gotten up and everything turned upside down - but I cannot help but think JR would have peeked in on JB before retiring.

 

[Darlene733510]

There is also a question of when did they eat the pineapple? We're the parents in bed and they went to the kitchen?

 

[UKGuy]

BBM The accounts written about John and Burke assembling a toy together place them on the main floor - living room, near the Christmas tree, IIRC. Your observation that we are supposed to consider John and Burke being together for a period of time, away from Patsy while she is alone with JB, does lead to interesting thought. Then, Patsy is supposed to have gone about more packing chores, while John and Burke continue to ready Burke for bed (without Patsy knowing for sure), yet Patsy is then said to be in bed ahead of JR arriving there for some quick reading after taking his melatonin.

If Patsy was busy gathering clothing from JB's and Burke's room, or even the laundry area there on the children's floor, then taking things to JAR's room to put with things for the Disney trip, at the same time JR and Burke would have come up to put Burke to bed, how did they avoid running into each other on that floor? Wouldn't Patsy have had to complete her packing chores and made it to bed before Burke and JR came up and went through the bedtime thing?

If we are to believe the R's, then JB was carried to bed, Patsy got her tucked in, worked on the Disney trip for a bit while JR and Burke were working on the toy in the living room, but Patsy went off to bed prior to JR and Burke coming up, and JR then going to his room where Patsy was already in bed. The last person up and around then, according to their own reports, would have been JR. Not saying that the kids could not have then gotten up and everything turned upside down - but I cannot help but think JR would have peeked in on JB before retiring.

midwest mama,
Sure JR could have peeked in. I reckon JDI is as probable as BDI. It is curious that JR and BR are corroborating each others alibi, whereas Patsy has none! in the event of any Ramsey disagreement, Patsy does not have a leg to stand on, while JR and BR can claim ignorance, and distance themselves from any events upstairs?

Anyway I reckon that is all theoretical based on the R's fictional version of events.

A little update on what I have decided to call my Coma Theory since this is what I reckon was the causal factor which eventually led to JonBenet's death.

I will not repeat the details, which I assume you are familiar with. Sadly in the indian state of Madhya Pradesh, a five-year-old girl has died after being raped.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/30/raped-five-year-old-indian-dies

The girl suffered cardiac arrest and died late on Monday at a hospital in Nagpur city in neighbouring Maharashtra state where she was being treated for injuries from the assault on 18 April, said Bharat Yadav, and official for Seoni district, where the attack occurred.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/30/raped-five-year-old-indian-dies

Ravi Manadiar, an administrator at the hospital, said the girl suffered a brain injury when the men tried to smother her cries and was in a coma from 20 April until she died.

Although the circumstances do not mirror that of JonBenet, the mechanism that led to the indian girl falling into coma I would claim is the same as that of JonBenet?

Both girls I reckon were smothered to prevent any call for help, resulting in coma, possibly the mechanism was the same. Except in the JonBenet case there was further staging attempting to mask both the cause of the coma and sexual assault?

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[midwest mama]

There is also a question of when did they eat the pineapple? We're the parents in bed and they went to the kitchen?

I think the pineapple was eaten with Patsy's knowledge. She had to say she knew nothing about it, because that would negate their story of her being brought home asleep and carried upstairs to be put to bed. If Patsy thought Burke killed JB, she also would not have let LE know JB and Burke were awake and in proximity of each other so near her time of death. Too easy to surmise the kids got into a fight that could have been unresolved, and later led to rage on Burke's part. John might have had no idea the kids had snacked. Maybe a quirk that there was something he could tell the truth about.

 

[Chelly]

Is JBR's killer alive or dead?
Yes and No.