Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #12

[katydid23]

Moo...at the beginning of this war it was said it was common knowledge that Hamas had tunnels and they were under hospitals. So Israel has this intelligence that they are certain of. Israel has equipment and training experience to work with in tunnels. All good..go get Hamas. Israel knows there is a huge civilian population. Why did Israel not deal directly with the tunnels instead of carpet bombing the civilians?....moo.

Israel couldn't get to the tunnels because they are below the hospital and many civilians are in the way. Hamas keeps the civilians, patients and doctors, there to prevent Israel from being able to attack the tunnels.

 

[katydid23]

Moo...yes Hamas is in it for its own gain. That is why there are people saying...what about the Palestinians, why are they being slaughtered....moo

The confusing part is that there are 1.7 million people in Gaza. And reportedly only about 25,000 Hamas members.

If 1.7 million people are being bullied and victimised by 25,000 people, why not revolt? They have the numbers. If they really hated Hamas they could fight for their freedom considering strength in numbers quota.

That makes me think that the recent polls may be correct, saying that 75% of the population is supportive of the October 7th Massacre.

If so, then maybe Israel is justified in continuing their quest to retaliate and try to weaken Hamas while they can.

 

[SusanDonim]

The confusing part is that there are 1.7 million people in Gaza. And reportedly only about 25,000 Hamas members.

If 1.7 million people are being bullied and victimised by 25,000 people, why not revolt? They have the numbers. If they really hated Hamas they could fight for their freedom considering strength in numbers quota.

That makes me think that the recent polls may be correct, saying that 75% of the population is supportive of the October 7th Massacre.

If so, then maybe Israel is justified in continuing their quest to retaliate and try to weaken Hamas while they can.

BBM.

That "survey" had a sample size of 668.

Please stop quoting this highly misleading claim.

 

[katydid23]

Hamas leaders are corrupt politicians. The PM of Israel has been on trial for corruption. And on it goes....

JMO

Judges in Netanyahu's corruption trial deny reluctance, say length is due to complexity

***

www.haaretz.com

Hamas are just 'corrupt politicians?'

Hamas outright robs its citizens of the foreign aid meant to feed and house and educate them.

Hamas stole the hundreds of underground pipes to deliver much needed water, and used them to craft bombs to attack Israel.

Hamas stole the fuel needed to keep Gaza's water working and hospitals running, so they could give it to their terrorists.

Hamas allowed their people to starve and die of thirst, even though they had underground stashes of supplies for themselves----stolen from the people.

Hamas forced their people to stay in danger in the hospital just so Hamas could hide underneath him when IDF arrived.

Hamas said the Massacre on 10/7 was designed to create ongoing violence---it was not about getting fuel or food for their people. That is not their concern---they admitted that. They don't care about the safety or well being of their people.

It is much more than just being 'corrupt politicians.' It is about vile, vicious cruel killers that are greedy and selfish beyond measure. JMO

 

[katydid23]

BBM.

That "survey" had a sample size of 668.

Please stop quoting this highly misleading claim.

668 is a valid number for a poll. It is small, admittedly.

The real numbers are the differences between 2.3 million people vs 25,000 people.

Why do 25k people have so much power and control over 2.3 million citizens---unless there is support for them?

Makes me think Hamas is more popular with the people than some like to believe.

 

[SouthAussie]

BBM.

That "survey" had a sample size of 668.

(Just jumping off your post)

There is a calculator that shows how many people need to be polled to get a 2% margin of error, and 95% confidence in the poll results.

The UN says that Gaza has 2.3 million people. (1.7 million are displaced) Link

Which means the poll size should be 2,399 people. And (imo) it would be good if the poll included women. I am not sure that small poll they took included women.

Sample size calculator - CheckMarket

Sample size calculator. Determine the number of respondents needed in a survey to have statistically significant results. Or calculate the margin of error.

www.checkmarket.com

 

[IDK]

I was asking about the Jewish terrorist groups. It's not a personal insult. It's like bait and switch... I ask about one thing and someone posts a reply that is something different... call me confused. We have discussed the Jewish settlers encroaching previously and I do believe you were present during those conversations. If not, please forgive me. But, going by the link you provided... I came to the conclusion that you believe or want me to believe Jewish settlers must be Jewish terrorists. I'm just trying to follow along with the confusing logic starting from 1948 or 1977 or 2006 or ??

Here’s just one example: the Israeli cabinet member Ben Gvir who openly supports terrorist groups. He is a well known settler who supports displacing Palestinians and innocent Bedouin sheepherders.

“Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.”

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

 

[katydid23]

Here’s just one example: the Israeli cabinet member Ben Gvir who openly supports terrorist groups. He is a well known settler who supports displacing Palestinians and innocent Bedouin sheepherders.

“Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.”

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

Does that justify sending thousands of violent predators into Israel at sunrise to begin killing families in their homes though?

I'm sure there are racist extremists on both sides. I'm sure there are incidents of racism and violence from both sides.

But October 7th was WAAAAAAYYYYYY out of line. It was a vicious massacre that is so unacceptable, unjustified and terrifying. I cannot believe how much support it is being given here.

 

[IDK]

This article is from Oct 13, but every word is even more meaningful today

'Dehumanization, lack of empathy for Palestinians is alarming, dangerous'

Thank you for posting. A very good reminder for all of us.

 

[IDK]

Does that justify sending thousands of violent predators into Israel at sunrise to begin killing families in their homes though?

I'm sure there are racist extremists on both sides. I'm sure there are incidents of racism and violence from both sides.

But October 7th was WAAAAAAYYYYYY out of line. It was a vicious massacre that is so unacceptable, unjustified and terrifying. I cannot believe how much support it is being given here.

I have never supported the actions in October and have stated I was disgusted and appalled by it.

 

[SouthAussie]

Does that justify sending thousands of violent predators into Israel at sunrise to begin killing families in their homes though?

I'm sure there are racist extremists on both sides. I'm sure there are incidents of racism and violence from both sides.

But October 7th was WAAAAAAYYYYYY out of line. It was a vicious massacre that is so unacceptable, unjustified and terrifying. I cannot believe how much support it is being given here.

I don't support the Oct 7th massacre either. At all.

And I have difficulty coping with what is happening to the Palestinians, as if they don't have a right to live just because they have been governed by Hamas since 2006. Hamas only won govt by one seat in 2006. One seat. And since then the people haven't been given a choice and pretty much know no better. We have seen the indoctrination.

It seems such a hopeless situation, because what is happening now may breed a whole new generation of Palestinians who hate Israelis.

I don't know what the answer is. I just know I hate all the killing and harming on both sides of the (internal) border.

imo

 

[Dotta]

There is no doubt that the humanitarian costs of the war in Gaza are terrifying.

There is also a question what exactly does Israel want to achieve strategically in Gaza?

What to do with a devastated Gaza once hostilities cease?

Even if Hamas is not able to rebuild there quickly, the vacuum left by it will be filled by other radical organizations, which will sooner or later become a security problem again.

JMO

 

[sds71]

Twenty-eight of the premature babies who were evacuated from al-Shifa hospital have arrived in Egypt through the Rafah crossing, Egypt's state-run media confirmed.

Four of the babies died before their visit. Mr Zaqout added they had not been in "suitable conditions for them to stay alive."

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-11-20/all-change-for-family-christmas-at-sandringham-but-still-no-harry-and-meghan

 

[SouthAussie]

There is no doubt that the humanitarian costs of the war in Gaza are terrifying.

There is also a question what exactly does Israel want to achieve strategically in Gaza?

What to do with a devastated Gaza once hostilities cease?

Even if Hamas is not able to rebuild there quickly, the vacuum left by it will be filled by other radical organizations, which will sooner or later become a security problem again.

JMO

I have wondered what the heck Hamas (realistically) thought they would achieve by committing such a massacre.
Their little rockets against the superior Israeli weaponry.

Maybe they hoped for this division that is being created? As if that may help their "cause"?
Maybe they hope their neighbours may step in and help them? I really don't understand what they hoped for.

Gershon Baskin said (in that video that has been posted) that he thinks Hamas did not anticipate such a big counter attack. He also thinks that Hamas will fight to the death, they have stated that.

imo

 

[Brightchaser47]

They are united by their religion.
They might quarrel among themselves but always unite against those who threaten Muslims.
They are very loyal.

JMO

I would agree, but I dare say this applies mainly to Muslim  men. Muslim men are loyal to other Muslim men. jmo

 

[Dotta]

I have wondered what the heck Hamas (realistically) thought they would achieve by committing such a massacre.
Their little rockets against the superior Israeli weaponry.

Maybe they hoped for this division that is being created? As if that may help their "cause"?
Maybe they hope their neighbours may step in and help them? I really don't understand what they hoped for.

Gershon Baskin said (in that video that has been posted) that he thinks Hamas did not anticipate such a big counter attack. He also thinks that Hamas will fight to the death, they have stated that.

imo

Maybe to show their supporters that even if they cannot "liberate" Gaza,
they can take "revenge" on Israel, so carried out attacks?

 

[Elley Mae]

Maybe to show their supporters that even if they cannot "liberate" Gaza,
they can take "revenge" on Israel, so carried out attacks?

If I were Bibi and thought this was revenge, gaza would be no more.

Jmo

Eta which means, no man’s land.

 

[SophieRose]

I have wondered what the heck Hamas (realistically) thought they would achieve by committing such a massacre.
Their little rockets against the superior Israeli weaponry.

Maybe they hoped for this division that is being created? As if that may help their "cause"?
Maybe they hope their neighbours may step in and help them? I really don't understand what they hoped for.

Gershon Baskin said (in that video that has been posted) that he thinks Hamas did not anticipate such a big counter attack. He also thinks that Hamas will fight to the death, they have stated that.

imo

You might want to watch these, it's worth it.

Palestinian author and peace activist Aziz Abu Sarah says concessions by Israel during previous conflicts have “only strengthened” Hamas politically.

Hamas ‘only strengthened’ due to concessions by Israel

Palestinian author and peace activist Aziz Abu Sarah says concessions by Israel during previous conflicts have “only strengthened” Hamas politically. “Hamas came to power in 2006 after an election, that people who voted for Hamas, most of them are not around anymore,” Mr Abu Sarah said. “70...

www.skynews.com.au

Palestinian peace activist Aziz Abu Sarah joins "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss the Hamas attack on Israel, Israel's response, and the barriers to peace.

 

[OldCop]

Why was a hospital being told to evacuate? That is incredibly bizarre. ICU patients are not easily evacuated and that includes premature babies, patients on ventilators, kidney dialysis, needing surgery, needing IV for infections, just to name a few

It is never easy to evacuate a hospital, but it is done in emergency situations. Consider fire, floods, earthquakes & hurricanes.
They were told to evacuate because they were literally sitting on a bomb due to the tunnels built by Hamas below the hospital that were booby-trapped, that had stored weapons and munitions, terrorist cells, and perhaps hostages. They were given ample notice in numerous formats. How much notice did Hamas give to the folks enjoying the music festival or living peacefully in nearby kibbutzim?
IDF did not then march in with guns blazing with the attitude of, “Hey, we warned them”. No, instead they entered carefully, equipped with Arabic translators and medical supplies and did no further examinations of the tunnel shafts and infrastructure until they made safe evacuation routes and cleared each area as best they could.
Can any of us here imagine if it was our city and our major hospital was sitting on a ticking time bomb and the terrorists below had their hands on the timer all the while sucking out the hospital’s funding and supplies? Should we just leave it there? Can’t you imagine the cries of, “You must do something about this!”

 

[OldCop]

Makes me think Hamas is more popular with the people than some like to believe

As evidenced by the joyful celebrations of civilians as the dead and injured hostages were paraded through the streets of Gaza by the Hamas terrorists who launched the attack.