Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #9

[otto]

I did not know that the IDF offered to assist with evacuation. I knew there were announcements and leaflets, but nothing more.

Post 122 this page ... listen to the whole thing to get the whole message

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720213978092101955

 

[Momoffourboys]

The UN must be including the Gaza City hospital that was supposed to evacuate. At one point, I wondered whether ambulances were taxis. Watching footage of hospitals, it often looked like 10 people jumped out of each ambulance and ran into the hospital.

Those ambulances should have been used to evacuate patients from the North to hospitals in the South. Patients who need extra care were evacuated yesterday to hospitals outside Gaza. Urgent care patients in Gaza City could have been included in that transport of patients.

The UN should have overseen patient evacuation safety and worked with the IDF to evacuate the hospital. The IDF did not prevent that from happening. In fact, per IDF announcements, the IDF offered to facilitate temporary evacuation of people from Gaza City to the humanitarian zone South of the Gaza River.

Is the UN saying that Hamas would not allow them to evacuate patients? Or are they saying that Hamas allowed them to evacuate the hospital but IDF stopped them? I think Hamas would not allow evacuation rather than IDF preventing civilians from access to humanitarian aide.

IMO UNRWA isn’t capable of ensuring and securing anything for the Gazans, as they are both controlled by Hamas and have their own history of corruption in Gaza.

Corruption on top of failure at the UN’s Palestine agency

President Trump cut off US funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees last September because UNRWA is “irredeemably flawed.” In fact, it’s worse than he thought. …

nypost.com

 

[Brightchaser47]

Post 122 this page ... listen to the whole thing to get the whole message

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720213978092101955

Playing Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what of the claims from Gazans that there's been shelling along the designated evacuation routes? I know, it's war, but that's the reason being given by many for not moving South.

 

[Momoffourboys]

We the IDF are facilitating the entry of water, food, medicine and medical equipment for the civilians of Gaza. This is a war between Hamas—a terrorist organization—and the IDF, who are responding to the October 7 Massacre. Listen as IDF Spokesperson, RAdm. Daniel Hagari expands on the subject:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720246116279603690

 

[otto]

A little bit of history...

In 1948, Great Britain withdrew from Palestine, handing over the problem of dividing this territory to the United Nations, which in the same year passed Resolution No. 181 - II, under which two states were to be established in Palestine -
Jewish and Arab, i.e. Palestinian.

According to the UN division, over 50 percent the lands of Palestine were to go to the Jews, although they constituted no more than 33 percent of the local population.

Half a year later, on May 15, 1948, in Tel Aviv, Ben-Gurion read the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, which, however, was not accepted by the Arabs.

The Jews declared independence, but the Palestinians did not.

And since then, the conflict between them has been asymmetric in nature, because it takes place between the state and the nation, which to this day does not have its state representative.

Hamas - Islamic Resistance Movement is a Palestinian organization that was established in 1987 during the intifada, i.e. the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation.

It broke out spontaneously, and the Palestinians, in addition to political demands, demanded improved existential conditions.

Since the late 1980s, the Palestinian political scene has been dominated by two organizations -
the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by Fatah, and Hamas.

So what makes these two organizations different?

First of all, the PLO or Fatah wants an independent but secular Palestine, while Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad strive to create an independent Islamic state.

In 1993, the PLO and Israel signed the Oslo Agreement, which established the Palestinian Authority and set out a plan for the gradual transfer of territory.

The peace process was implemented until the second half of the 1990s, when it finally collapsed due to violence.

The peace agreement was not recognized by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which organized a series of terrorist attacks on Israeli territory over several years.

This caused a wave of opposition among Israeli society regarding a peaceful attitude towards the Palestinians.

In 1995, an Israeli fundamentalist killed Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, which turned out to be an additional blow to peace.

In 2000, the second Palestinian uprising broke out - the Al-Aqsa intifada.

The demands of the Palestinians were once again not implemented, and the uprising itself finally ended in 2004 with the death of Yasser Arafat
(the long-time leader of the PLO).

Since 2007, the Palestinian territory has been effectively divided into two parts:
- the West Bank, under the control of Fatah or the PLO,

- and the Gaza Strip, under the full control of Hamas.

It is worth emphasizing that Hamas, like the Lebanese Hezbollah, is not only a military organization, but also a political and social movement.

Hamas manages over 2 million Palestinians, organizes education, the judiciary, ensures water supplies - it exercises full authority, including administrative authority, over the Gaza Strip.

The source of this conflict is the dispute over territory and statehood.

The Palestinians would like to create their own state and regain the territory that was once theirs and which still belongs to them under international law.

This conflict is also about sovereignty, i.e.
the independence of the Palestinians.

Another important problem is the right of refugees to return to the lands from which they were expelled, which is one of their initial assumptions for signing the peace agreement.

In 1948, approximately 750,000 were expelled from Palestinian territory.

Palestinians - today they constitute of 8 million refugees who live in camps both in the Palestinian territories and in neighboring countries, including in Lebanon or Egypt.

In the Gaza Strip itself, ¾ of the population are refugees.

In addition to these three main axes of the conflict, there is also an ethnic and religious dispute between Arabs and Jews, which is often used by fundamentalists on both sides to justify the essence of the dispute and demands.

Over the last 20-30 years, the Palestinian issue has been increasingly treated as Israel's internal matter, which has led to the current, rather critical situation.

Have I missed something?

JMO

I heard earlier today that "refugee camps" are not what we understand as tent camps. These thriving cities are filled with high rise apartment buildings. They sound like cities that grew out of refugee settlements, but they are no longer "camps".

Do 3rd and 4th generation Gaza civilians claim to be refugees? Refugees in Canada stop being a refugees after the first generation.

 

[Sundog]

"The days of Israeli Prime Minister are numbered.
US President was supposed to send a warning.

During a recent meeting at the White House, the administration discussed the political future of Benjamin Netanyahu.

'Politico' reports that, according to the US President, the Israeli Prime Minister's days are 'numbered', and these conclusions were reportedly delivered to him by Joe Biden himself in recent days.

Officially, Washington denies these reports.

The American website, citing sources close to the White House, claims that
a conversation between a close group of advisers and the US President took place relatively recently, but after the democrat's return from the Middle East.
Afterwards, Joe Biden allegedly called Benjamin Netanyahu and suggested that he should consider what advice to give to his successor as Prime Minister of Israel."

More in the link

Napięcie między Izraelem a USA. "Dni premiera są policzone"

Kliknij i zobacz więcej.

wydarzenia.interia.pl

From my country's MSM

The White House has denied that this is true. In any event, if it is true, that would be very odd, especially since the current administration is facing its own election.

Why would a U.S. president interfere with the leadership of another nation like this? Sounds very odd to me.

 

[Dotta]

Why would a U.S. president interfere with the leadership of another nation like this? Sounds very odd to me.

Don't ask ME
I'm only a messenger

 

[acutename]

I have to agree. Also, I suspect at least some of the hostages are there (in or below the hospital).

I wonder if the released hostages know anything or if they were kept separately and prevented from observing anything.

The old pictures of hamas caring for kidnapped children had windows with trees in the background but no idea if that was photoshopped or if the hostage children were moved by the time the photos were released.

 

[Dotta]

Do 3rd and 4th generation Gaza civilians claim to be refugees? Refugees in Canada stop being a refugees after the first generation.

But they are stateless.
What is their citizenship exactly?
What are their rights?

 

[fred&edna]

A little bit of history...

In 1948, Great Britain withdrew from Palestine, handing over the problem of dividing this territory to the United Nations, which in the same year passed Resolution No. 181 - II, under which two states were to be established in Palestine -
Jewish and Arab, i.e. Palestinian.

According to the UN division, over 50 percent the lands of Palestine were to go to the Jews, although they constituted no more than 33 percent of the local population.

Half a year later, on May 15, 1948, in Tel Aviv, Ben-Gurion read the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, which, however, was not accepted by the Arabs.

The Jews declared independence, but the Palestinians did not.

And since then, the conflict between them has been asymmetric in nature, because it takes place between the state and the nation, which to this day does not have its state representative.

Hamas - Islamic Resistance Movement is a Palestinian organization that was established in 1987 during the intifada, i.e. the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation.

It broke out spontaneously, and the Palestinians, in addition to political demands, demanded improved existential conditions.

Since the late 1980s, the Palestinian political scene has been dominated by two organizations -
the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by Fatah, and Hamas.

So what makes these two organizations different?

First of all, the PLO or Fatah wants an independent but secular Palestine, while Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad strive to create an independent Islamic state.

In 1993, the PLO and Israel signed the Oslo Agreement, which established the Palestinian Authority and set out a plan for the gradual transfer of territory.

The peace process was implemented until the second half of the 1990s, when it finally collapsed due to violence.

The peace agreement was not recognized by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which organized a series of terrorist attacks on Israeli territory over several years.

This caused a wave of opposition among Israeli society regarding a peaceful attitude towards the Palestinians.

In 1995, an Israeli fundamentalist killed Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, which turned out to be an additional blow to peace.

In 2000, the second Palestinian uprising broke out - the Al-Aqsa intifada.

The demands of the Palestinians were once again not implemented, and the uprising itself finally ended in 2004 with the death of Yasser Arafat
(the long-time leader of the PLO).

Since 2007, the Palestinian territory has been effectively divided into two parts:
- the West Bank, under the control of Fatah or the PLO,

- and the Gaza Strip, under the full control of Hamas.

It is worth emphasizing that Hamas, like the Lebanese Hezbollah, is not only a military organization, but also a political and social movement.

Hamas manages over 2 million Palestinians, organizes education, the judiciary, ensures water supplies - it exercises full authority, including administrative authority, over the Gaza Strip.

The source of this conflict is the dispute over territory and statehood.

The Palestinians would like to create their own state and regain the territory that was once theirs and which still belongs to them under international law.

This conflict is also about sovereignty, i.e.
the independence of the Palestinians.

Another important problem is the right of refugees to return to the lands from which they were expelled, which is one of their initial assumptions for signing the peace agreement.

In 1948, approximately 750,000 were expelled from Palestinian territory.

Palestinians - today they constitute of 8 million refugees who live in camps both in the Palestinian territories and in neighboring countries, including in Lebanon or Egypt.

In the Gaza Strip itself, ¾ of the population are refugees.

In addition to these three main axes of the conflict, there is also an ethnic and religious dispute between Arabs and Jews, which is often used by fundamentalists on both sides to justify the essence of the dispute and demands.

Over the last 20-30 years, the Palestinian issue has been increasingly treated as Israel's internal matter, which has led to the current, rather critical situation.

Have I missed something?

JMO

Thank you for this.

The only thought I have (and I know it's a simple yet complicated one ) is that the Palestinians haven't managed to get their overall governing "stuff" together since 1993... and it's been a constant struggle within and externally. Also, I am concerned that the efforts of the UN hasn't been exactly what's needed for too many years. Money (millions) flows into the wrong hands and it's all ill-spent or is somehow "bent". To top it all off the governing body wants to brutally murder all the infidels... and their support has been festering and growing. My apologies for not having a brighter mind with better words but this is how it appears to me in my simple brain.

 

[Friday Fan]

Post 122 this page ... listen to the whole thing to get the whole message

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720213978092101955

I don't see where they are going to help them evacuate. They didn't provide any transportation or anything. They just told them to go. The IDF head just said one time "We want to help you", but didn't give any further information. They just said ""move south". There is no street listed on the flyer. When we evacuate here, we're given very clear instructions on where to go, such as a high school. If roads are closed, we are told et If transportation is not available, it can be arranged. No such info was given. They were only told to go south of the river. I guess telling them to go south of the river is their idea of helping them to evacuate. There was no intention that they would escort them or anything.

 

[otto]

IMO UNRWA isn’t capable of ensuring and securing anything for the Gazans, as they are both controlled by Hamas and have their own history of corruption in Gaza.

Corruption on top of failure at the UN’s Palestine agency

President Trump cut off US funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees last September because UNRWA is “irredeemably flawed.” In fact, it’s worse than he thought. …

nypost.com

Exactly. The IDF is not in any way responsible for preventing humanitarian aide from reaching Gaza civilians. The UN should not claim that "occupying forces", such as Israel, are interfering with the delivery of aide. The IDF did not prevent the evacuation of patients from the Gaza City hospital. Had patients been evacuated to the humanitarian zone, they would have access to aide. Who prevented the evacuation?

The IDF was very clear that North Gaza had to evacuate for their own safety. I would assume that was a top priority for the UN, and that the UN did everything possible to evacuate and arrange transports for civilians and hospital patients. Anything less would be negligence. If Hamas was preventing evacuation of patients, the UN has a responsibility to include that in their news releases. Hamas, and not "occupying forces", is interfering with civilians receiving aide.

Now that Israeli forces have severed North Gaza (area controlled by Hamas government), humanitarian aide is flowing into the country. It is not available to Hamas territory in the North, and the UN should not suggest that humanitarian aide be delivered to militants during war.

 

[Momoffourboys]

I wonder if the released hostages know anything or if they were kept separately and prevented from observing anything.

The old pictures of hamas caring for kidnapped children had windows with trees in the background but no idea if that was photoshopped or if the hostage children were moved by the time the photos were released.

The IDF said that the debriefings of the released/retrieved hostages were helpful, especially the soldier that they rescued two days ago.

The photos/videos/propaganda of Hamas holding the babies was at the kibbutz after murdering their parents. I know one of the babies is safe with family. Haven’t heard about the other.

 

[PommyMommy]

Israel-Hamas war live updates: At least 79 Americans have exited into Egypt as Biden calls for 'pause' to get hostages out of Gaza (nbcnews.com)
9m ago / 6:39 PM PDT

U.S. flying unarmed drones over Gaza to help with hostage recovery, officials say​

The U.S. military is flying unarmed drone flights over Gaza to help with hostage recovery, according to two U.S. officials.

The drones are MQ-9 Reapers and they have been flying since after the Oct. 7 attacks, the officials said. The officials were not aware of any previous times U.S. military drones have flown missions over Gaza.

The officials would not say where the drones are flying out of, citing operational security.

The New York Times first reported the use of drones.

 

[otto]

Playing Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what of the claims from Gazans that there's been shelling along the designated evacuation routes? I know, it's war, but that's the reason being given by many for not moving South.

We know about the car bomb on the evacuation route early in the war. Hamas immediately blamed Israel for dropping a missile on the vehicle. Footage illustrated that it was a car bomb - Hamas orchestrated event.

There are two routes: along the seas, main highway through Gaza. The bomb was on the main highway.

We also heard intercepted phone calls where Gaza civilians said that Hamas militants were shooting at them and preventing them from evacuating. I haven't seen any footage to support that claim - Hamas uses go-pro when they murder people.

Israel had not yet entered Gaza, so it was out of their control. Today, Israel has control of that route. Will the UN assist to evacuate the hospital in Gaza City?

 

[fred&edna]

Footage from earlier tonight within the City of Jenin in the West Bank showing some kind of Improvised Explosive Device being used to Target an IDF Caterpillar D9 Armored-Bulldozer; the Explosion appears to have not caused much Damage to the Bulldozer but I doubt it felt very good for the Crew.

https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1720255303315243360?s=20

https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1720255650448506949?s=20

 

[Cryptic]

Do 3rd and 4th generation Gaza civilians claim to be refugees? Refugees in Canada stop being a refugees after the first generation.

Guessing that refugees who are accepted in Canada have full citizenship rights?

In contrast, 3rd 4th generation Palestinians very often do not have citizenship rights in any country. So, they tend to retain the descriptor "refugee".

 

[otto]

But they are stateless.
What is their citizenship exactly?
What are their rights?

I don't think the people of Gaza are stateless at all. They have lived on the Gaza strip for what sounds like 3-4 generations. They had the choice to build their new nation as Dubai or Beirut. They chose Beirut. They chose to raise an army to kill civilians rather than protect civilians.

It sounds like a very unhealthy society that has embedded murder and hatred in their curriculum for everyone from age 4 to age 22. Today, Hamas government militants are capable of cooking a baby in the oven. That is madness - absolute, dangerous, psychotic madness. People like that have no place in civilized society.

They should stay in Gaza, but rename their cities. Instead of calling their city of high rises a "refugee camp", have some imagination, take pride. They should have all the rights their elected government affords them. If they don't like those rights, they should change the elected government.

 

[Cryptic]

The only thought I have (and I know it's a simple yet complicated one ) is that the Palestinians haven't managed to get their overall governing "stuff" together since 1993... and it's been a constant struggle within and externally.

Very true.

Then again, the Palestinians have some extra challenges in establishing an effective government. For example, their "country" shrinks yearly with every new Israeli settlement and with every new official and unofficial "No Go" zone.

 

[otto]

I don't see where they are going to help them evacuate. They didn't provide any transportation or anything. They just told them to go. The IDF head just said one time "We want to help you", but didn't give any further information. They just said ""move south". There is no street listed on the flyer. When we evacuate here, we're given very clear instructions on where to go, such as a high school. If roads are closed, we are told et If transportation is not available, it can be arranged. No such info was given. They were only told to go south of the river. I guess telling them to go south of the river is their idea of helping them to evacuate. There was no intention that they would escort them or anything.

I'll look at it later and find the time stamp ... and post.