Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #9

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At this time, with hospital staff, patients and civilians refusing to evacuate, and Hamas martyrs patrolling the buildings, it sounds like Hamas wants to turn it into a blood bath. Senior leaders will be long gone when that happens.
IMO the civilians are not refusing to evacuate. Hamas will not let them.
Hamas needs them at the hospital. Both as human shields knowing very well the IDF cares about civilians and also for sympathy from the world when/if something happens. Purest form of evil.
 
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I like spotting those fighter jets.
I enjoyed our time in Hawaii because the Air National Guard was always flying and I could hear them from my house and watch them land too. It's pretty cool to see them take off.. they go straight up (well it seems that way when watching.. lol) I loved hearing the helicopters also. I always felt safer knowing they were all around.
 
At this time, with hospital staff, patients and civilians refusing to evacuate, and Hamas martyrs patrolling the buildings, it sounds like Hamas wants to turn it into a blood bath. Senior leaders will be long gone when that happens.
Hopefully they can find a way in and go room to room if need be and root HAMAS out. If they run great.. then we can get the patients and workers out safely and then level the dang building and all the tunnels under and around it.
 
At this time, with hospital staff, patients and civilians refusing to evacuate, and Hamas martyrs patrolling the buildings, it sounds like Hamas wants to turn it into a blood bath. Senior leaders will be long gone when that happens.
1/2 of the hospitals are closed. The other hospitals are full and treating numerous patients in halls and overflow areas.
 
Now I'm seeing one of these flying over the water also. It is a Navy operated aircraft. Seeing the increase in these surveillance planes is encouraging. I hope it means they are intercepting some communications and learning possible hostage locations and HAMAS plans/locations. I'd imagine the more Israel pushes into GAZA, the more chatter they might pick up from HAMAS as they try to figure out what to do, where to go, how to counter what Israel is doing, etc.


The P-8 operates in anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-surface warfare (ASUW), and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) roles. It is armed with torpedoes, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, and other weapons, can drop and monitor sonobuoys, and can operate in conjunction with other assets, including the Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton maritime surveillance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV).
 
The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA), with the division of responsibilities overlapping in much of the territory.

Thank you! I didn't know that.
If Israel does not have some jurisdiction in Gaza, we end up with the massacre of October 7. Do the Palestinian Authority and Israelis typically provide for Gaza (food, water, fuel, medicines), or do they assist with concepts of law, justice and governance of protecting citizens, and developing armies to protect those citizens?

Why doesn't the UN include Hamas government as a barrier to distribution of humanitarian aide? Hamas started this. Why are only Israel and the Palestinian Authority barriers to aide delivery?
 
Thank you! I didn't know that.
If Israel does not have some jurisdiction in Gaza, we end up with the massacre of October 7. Do the Palestinian Authority and Israelis typically provide for Gaza (food, water, fuel, medicines), or do they assist with concepts of law, justice and governance of protecting citizens, and developing armies to protect those citizens?

Why doesn't the UN include Hamas government as a barrier to distribution of humanitarian aide? Hamas started this. Why are only Israel and the Palestinian Authority barriers to aide delivery?
Gaza is part of Israel. Only a very small percentage are citizens of Israel. The territory has passed hands several times. Israel has claimed it since 1967. British Palestine, Palestine, Israel, Egypt, now Israel.
West Bank was also part of Jordan until 1967. Israel won both in a 1967 war. I think they wanted to give Gaza back to Egypt in 1978, but Egypt and the Gazans didn't want it. Gazans are Palestinians from Israel, so they're a slightly different ethnic group than Egyptian. Also by 1978, there were terrorism problems and that was likely another reason Egypt didn't want it.
 
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This entire exchange is worth watching.



UN Watch
@UNWatch


“U.N. spokesman condemns Israeli airstrikes on Jabalia, but when informed that international law permits hitting facilities used for terrorism, he goes speechless. “I don’t have the courage or the intellectual capacity to engage in a legal debate with you...I've run out of words.” “

 
Hopefully they can find a way in and go room to room if need be and root HAMAS out. If they run great.. then we can get the patients and workers out safely and then level the dang building and all the tunnels under and around it.
The tunnels underneath the hospital are booby trapped. They also hold munitions. If IDF enter the hospital, Hamas will detonate and blame Israel. I think the tunnels need to be sealed off as they near the hospital ... to trap Hamas in sections of the tunnels. I don't think IDF can get near the hospital without first dealing with the tunnels - where the hostages could be hidden.
 
IMO the civilians are not refusing to evacuate. Hamas will not let them.
Hamas needs them at the hospital. Both as human shields knowing very well the IDF cares about civilians and also for sympathy from the world when/if something happens. Purest form of evil.
I have to agree. Also, I suspect at least some of the hostages are there (in or below the hospital).
 
The tunnels underneath the hospital are booby trapped. They also hold munitions. If IDF enter the hospital, Hamas will detonate and blame Israel. I think the tunnels need to be sealed off as they near the hospital ... to trap Hamas in sections of the tunnels. I don't think IDF can get near the hospital without first dealing with the tunnels - where the hostages could be hidden.
The IDF said today that they will not enter the tunnels. They have other means. Link upthread from earlier.
 
Thank you! I didn't know that.
If Israel does not have some jurisdiction in Gaza, we end up with the massacre of October 7. Do the Palestinian Authority and Israelis typically provide for Gaza (food, water, fuel, medicines), or do they assist with concepts of law, justice and governance of protecting citizens, and developing armies to protect those citizens?

Why doesn't the UN include Hamas government as a barrier to distribution of humanitarian aide? Hamas started this. Why are only Israel and the Palestinian Authority barriers to aide delivery?
He does include Hamas in those remarks. He doesn't name anyone specifically as being the barrier.

He said:

"It is the responsibility of all parties to the conflict to allow those hospitals to be resupplied," Ryan said.
 
The IDF said today that they will not enter the tunnels. They have other means. Link upthread from earlier.
I read that one technique to identify the other end of the tunnel is to push purple smoke into the tunnel and watch where it comes out. Reminds me of a maze of gopher holes. Have you read that anywhere?
 
He does include Hamas in those remarks. He doesn't name anyone specifically as being the barrier.

He said:

"It is the responsibility of all parties to the conflict to allow those hospitals to be resupplied," Ryan said.
The UN must be including the Gaza City hospital that was supposed to evacuate. At one point, I wondered whether ambulances were taxis. Watching footage of hospitals, it often looked like 10 people jumped out of each ambulance and ran into the hospital.

Those ambulances should have been used to evacuate patients from the North to hospitals in the South. Patients who need extra care were evacuated yesterday to hospitals outside Gaza. Urgent care patients in Gaza City could have been included in that transport of patients.

The UN should have overseen patient evacuation safety and worked with the IDF to evacuate the hospital. The IDF did not prevent that from happening. In fact, per IDF announcements, the IDF offered to facilitate temporary evacuation of people from Gaza City to the humanitarian zone South of the Gaza River.

Is the UN saying that Hamas would not allow them to evacuate patients? Or are they saying that Hamas allowed them to evacuate the hospital but IDF stopped them? I think Hamas would not allow evacuation rather than IDF preventing civilians from access to humanitarian aide.
 
The UN must be including the Gaza City hospital that was supposed to evacuate. At one point, I wondered whether ambulances were taxis. Watching footage of hospitals, it often looked like 10 people jumped out of each ambulance and ran into the hospital.

Those ambulances should have been used to evacuate patients from the North to hospitals in the South. Patients who need extra care were evacuated yesterday to hospitals outside Gaza. Urgent care patients in Gaza City could have been included in that transport of patients.

The UN should have overseen patient evacuation safety and worked with the IDF to evacuate the hospital. The IDF did not prevent that from happening. In fact, per IDF announcements, the IDF offered to facilitate temporary evacuation of people from Gaza City to the humanitarian zone South of the Gaza River.

Is the UN saying that Hamas would not allow them to evacuate patients? Or are they saying that Hamas allowed them to evacuate the hospital but IDF stopped them? I think Hamas would not allow evacuation rather than IDF preventing civilians from access to humanitarian aide.
I did not know that the IDF offered to assist with evacuation. I knew there were announcements and leaflets, but nothing more.
 
A little bit of history...

In 1948, Great Britain withdrew from Palestine, handing over the problem of dividing this territory to the United Nations, which in the same year passed Resolution No. 181 - II, under which two states were to be established in Palestine -
Jewish and Arab, i.e. Palestinian.

According to the UN division, over 50 percent the lands of Palestine were to go to the Jews, although they constituted no more than 33 percent of the local population.

Half a year later, on May 15, 1948, in Tel Aviv, Ben-Gurion read the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, which, however, was not accepted by the Arabs.

The Jews declared independence, but the Palestinians did not.

And since then, the conflict between them has been asymmetric in nature, because it takes place between the state and the nation, which to this day does not have its state representative.

Hamas - Islamic Resistance Movement is a Palestinian organization that was established in 1987 during the intifada, i.e. the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation.

It broke out spontaneously, and the Palestinians, in addition to political demands, demanded improved existential conditions.

Since the late 1980s, the Palestinian political scene has been dominated by two organizations -
the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by Fatah, and Hamas.

So what makes these two organizations different?

First of all, the PLO or Fatah wants an independent but secular Palestine, while Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad strive to create an independent Islamic state.

In 1993, the PLO and Israel signed the Oslo Agreement, which established the Palestinian Authority and set out a plan for the gradual transfer of territory.

The peace process was implemented until the second half of the 1990s, when it finally collapsed due to violence.

The peace agreement was not recognized by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which organized a series of terrorist attacks on Israeli territory over several years.

This caused a wave of opposition among Israeli society regarding a peaceful attitude towards the Palestinians.

In 1995, an Israeli fundamentalist killed Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, which turned out to be an additional blow to peace.

In 2000, the second Palestinian uprising broke out - the Al-Aqsa intifada.

The demands of the Palestinians were once again not implemented, and the uprising itself finally ended in 2004 with the death of Yasser Arafat
(the long-time leader of the PLO).

Since 2007, the Palestinian territory has been effectively divided into two parts:
- the West Bank, under the control of Fatah or the PLO,

- and the Gaza Strip, under the full control of Hamas.

It is worth emphasizing that Hamas, like the Lebanese Hezbollah, is not only a military organization, but also a political and social movement.

Hamas manages over 2 million Palestinians, organizes education, the judiciary, ensures water supplies - it exercises full authority, including administrative authority, over the Gaza Strip.

The source of this conflict is the dispute over territory and statehood.

The Palestinians would like to create their own state and regain the territory that was once theirs and which still belongs to them under international law.

This conflict is also about sovereignty, i.e.
the independence of the Palestinians.

Another important problem is the right of refugees to return to the lands from which they were expelled, which is one of their initial assumptions for signing the peace agreement.

In 1948, approximately 750,000 were expelled from Palestinian territory.

Palestinians - today they constitute of 8 million refugees who live in camps both in the Palestinian territories and in neighboring countries, including in Lebanon or Egypt.

In the Gaza Strip itself, ¾ of the population are refugees.

In addition to these three main axes of the conflict, there is also an ethnic and religious dispute between Arabs and Jews, which is often used by fundamentalists on both sides to justify the essence of the dispute and demands.

Over the last 20-30 years, the Palestinian issue has been increasingly treated as Israel's internal matter, which has led to the current, rather critical situation.

Have I missed something?

JMO
 
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