Italy - Sailing yacht sank off Italian coast, 15 rescued, 7 missing, 19 August 2024

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My late husband and I owned a tall-masted sloop with a retractable keel. My honest opinion is that the captain isn't telling the truth about the hatches being closed. I also don't think that the keel was down. I've been in the situation of a sudden downburst storm. No. 1, you always check the weather and keep the alert mode on. No. 2 make sure all hatches are closed and sails are furled. No. 3 put the keel down so you will have steering power so you can head into the wind. If anchor is down, you pull it up and ride it out. Usually if the boat is in a roll-position (I've had the tall mast hit the water during one storm, it will eventually pop back up like a cork because of the weight of the keel. Story doesn't add up. JMO

Had to correct the unfurled to furled.

well wouldn't it be easy to check if the hatches are closed? he'd be a fool to lie about something that can and will be
checked by diving down or when they recover the boat

FULL DISCLOSURE - I know absolutely nothing about boats except what I'm learning through this thread so forgive me if the above is not possible
 
And here is an interesting article that highlights the culture of blaming the crew, and also explains the polite struggle between a captain trying to keep things safe and the overriding authority of the boat owner. Just another perspective.



There have been suggestions that the crew did not prepare the yacht properly for such an event: Somebody should have been aware of the storm, people should not have been in their cabins, the yacht should not have been at anchor, someone should have been at watch, the skipper failed to lower the keel and to order all hatches to be closed. In other words: the boat would be fine, if it were not for the erratic behaviour of an unreliable crew on them. Safety problems are the result of a few bad apples in an otherwise safe system… sound familiar for those of us in commercial shipping?

We, the authors of this article, offer here our perspective on accidents and human error from an operator’s point of view ........


 
well wouldn't it be easy to check if the hatches are closed? he'd be a fool to lie about something that can and will be
checked by diving down or when they recover the boat

FULL DISCLOSURE - I know absolutely nothing about boats except what I'm learning through this thread so forgive me if the above is no
JMO but I think the Captain is saying whatever his attorney is telling him he can say.
 
"Italian prosecutors have admitted they did not conduct alcohol and drug testing on the vessel's crew - all but one of whom survived - because they needed treatment and were in shock."

I expected that alcohol and drug testing would be done at the hospital as part of the investigation.
 
well wouldn't it be easy to check if the hatches are closed? he'd be a fool to lie about something that can and will be
checked by diving down or when they recover the boat

FULL DISCLOSURE - I know absolutely nothing about boats except what I'm learning through this thread so forgive me if the above is not possible
You would think so. He should have been ordering the crew to do the things that needed to be done. I'm thinking that if the hatches were closed as claimed, the boat would not be on the bottom of the water.
 
You would think so. He should have been ordering the crew to do the things that needed to be done. I'm thinking that if the hatches were closed as claimed, the boat would not be on the bottom of the water.

I think that water could have been absolutely pouring in through the shattered windows. There are so many windows on that boat.


Lynch's wife, Angela Bacares, survived the accident ..... She and her husband were not initially concerned, she said, but became worried when the windows of the yacht shattered and chaos erupted.

 
You would think so. He should have been ordering the crew to do the things that needed to be done. I'm thinking that if the hatches were closed as claimed, the boat would not be on the bottom of the water.
And then there are the engine room vents that experts (and us sleuthers here) have opined may have been open.

I thought the engine room was in the stern from Bayesian deck diagrams we've reviewed here. And if heavy water ingress occurred through the vents, that might explain why the Bayesian was seen with its bow raised (per the captain on the nearby schooner) and perhaps why the six passengers died on the lower deck.

But the Engineer's comments posted here today, make it sound like the engine room was not in the stern. Of course I may be missing something. Regardless, I still think the engine vents were key.

IMO.
 
My late husband and I owned a tall-masted sloop with a retractable keel. My honest opinion is that the captain isn't telling the truth about the hatches being closed. I also don't think that the keel was down. I've been in the situation of a sudden downburst storm. No. 1, you always check the weather and keep the alert mode on. No. 2 make sure all hatches are closed and sails are furled. No. 3 put the keel down so you will have steering power so you can head into the wind. If anchor is down, you pull it up and ride it out. Usually if the boat is in a roll-position (I've had the tall mast hit the water during one storm, it will eventually pop back up like a cork because of the weight of the keel. Story doesn't add up. JMO

Had to correct the unfurled to furled.
Welcome to this thread, @lonetraveler. Clearly you have a lot of personal experience and expertise to offer.

Since no one here (so far) has experienced a downburst, and can only imagine what that would be like, would you care to share that experience, and in particular, what kind of forewarning, if any did you have, how did your yacht respond, and in the ensuing seconds or minutes were you able to act at all?
 
And then there are the engine room vents that experts (and us sleuthers here) have opined may have been open.

I thought the engine room was in the stern from Bayesian deck diagrams we've reviewed here. And if heavy water ingress occurred through the vents, that might explain why the Bayesian was seen with its bow raised (per the captain on the nearby schooner) and perhaps why the six passengers died on the lower deck.

But the Engineer's comments posted here today, make it sound like the engine room was not in the stern. Of course I may be missing something. Regardless, I still think the engine vents were key.

IMO.

An early Italian article said that the yacht sank bow first then settled on its starboard side. In other words, took a nose dive then rolled. Maybe pitched forward on the large swells? With water then rushing in through those shattered windows, making the boat front-heavy? Maybe that was the engineer's experience of the incident.

The "bow raised" sighting may not have been during the actual sinking. imo But more so a sighting of the boat pitching forwards and backwards on the swells.


 
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And then there are the engine room vents that experts (and us sleuthers here) have opined may have been open.

I thought the engine room was in the stern from Bayesian deck diagrams we've reviewed here. And if heavy water ingress occurred through the vents, that might explain why the Bayesian was seen with its bow raised (per the captain on the nearby schooner) and perhaps why the six passengers died on the lower deck.

But the Engineer's comments posted here today, make it sound like the engine room was not in the stern. Of course I may be missing something. Regardless, I still think the engine vents were key.

IMO.
I did a bit of research because I wanted to know if the yacht had a rear captain's cabin or a center place captain's cabin. This yacht had a center place captain's cabin.
 
And here is an interesting article that highlights the culture of blaming the crew, and also explains the polite struggle between a captain trying to keep things safe and the overriding authority of the boat owner. Just another perspective.



There have been suggestions that the crew did not prepare the yacht properly for such an event: Somebody should have been aware of the storm, people should not have been in their cabins, the yacht should not have been at anchor, someone should have been at watch, the skipper failed to lower the keel and to order all hatches to be closed. In other words: the boat would be fine, if it were not for the erratic behaviour of an unreliable crew on them. Safety problems are the result of a few bad apples in an otherwise safe system… sound familiar for those of us in commercial shipping?

We, the authors of this article, offer here our perspective on accidents and human error from an operator’s point of view ........


See bolded by me above.
 
Mr Griffiths told investigators the captain had worked to help the passengers and crew to survive.

“We somehow got back up on the bridge and tried to make a human chain to rescue those who could get to the opening from the accommodation deck... they were walking up the walls because the boat was lying in the water,” Griffiths told Corriere della Sera, the Italian newspaper.

“The first one in the chain was the captain who reached down. He helped everybody, the women, the mum with the little girl... But we were sinking and unfortunately some didn’t make it.”

 
Mr Griffiths told investigators the captain had worked to help the passengers and crew to survive.

“We somehow got back up on the bridge and tried to make a human chain to rescue those who could get to the opening from the accommodation deck... they were walking up the walls because the boat was lying in the water,” Griffiths told Corriere della Sera, the Italian newspaper.

“The first one in the chain was the captain who reached down. He helped everybody, the women, the mum with the little girl... But we were sinking and unfortunately some didn’t make it.”

It's so obvious to me that the keel was not down, or else the boat would have been upright in the water, not on it's side. Even if the windows burst through during the storm, people could have sought safety in cabins that had closed hatches. IMO also, the anchor being down would negate the keel working to keep the boat upright.
 
An early Italian article said that the yacht sank bow first then settled on its starboard side. In other words, took a nose dive then rolled. Maybe pitched forward on the large swells? Maybe that was the engineer's experience of the incident.

The "bow raised" sighting may not have been during the actual sinking. imo But more so a sighting of the boat pitcīhing forwards and backwards on the swells.
RSBM
OK, I found Captain Karsten Borner's description of how the Bayesian sunk:

""There was a light [IRRC he reported elsewhere it was a bolt of lightening] and we saw that the ship was aside and then we saw a triangle. So I think she went back down...""

Perhaps the engineer, other early reporting (as you cite), and Borner's account are all correct. What if the Bayesian's bow went under water first, then it went over on its starboard side, and the stern went under as she sunk?

When looking for Karsten Borner's description of the Bayesian sinking, I found "more" recounting by him here:

1. "... the superyacht appeared to have stability problems.... "The center of gravity is too high with this extreme mast,” he explained...

2. "He also described the wind as “violent, very violent,” telling the FT that the wind speed likely reached hurricane strength as “tons of water” came down."

3. "Börner said the crew told him they “closed the ship,” according to the FT."

IMO.
 
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An early Italian article said that the yacht sank bow first then settled on its starboard side. In other words, took a nose dive then rolled. Maybe pitched forward on the large swells? With water then rushing in through those shattered windows, making the boat front-heavy? Maybe that was the engineer's experience of the incident.

The "bow raised" sighting may not have been during the actual sinking. imo But more so a sighting of the boat pitching forwards and backwards on the swells.


Bow first states to me that the anchor was off the bow part of the boat. JMO
 
It's so obvious to me that the keel was not down, or else the boat would have been upright in the water, not on it's side. Even if the windows burst through during the storm, people could have sought safety in cabins that had closed hatches. IMO also, the anchor being down would negate the keel working to keep the boat upright.
I tend to agree, @lonetraveler with my limited sailing yacht experience. The anchor down, keel up was not helpful. Did those cause the sinking? Could the crew have corrected those factors in time?
 
Welcome to this thread, @lonetraveler. Clearly you have a lot of personal experience and expertise to offer.

Since no one here (so far) has experienced a downburst, and can only imagine what that would be like, would you care to share that experience, and in particular, what kind of forewarning, if any did you have, how did your yacht respond, and in the ensuing seconds or minutes were you able to act at all?
Started out sunny and warm with no warning about a storm coming in until we could actually see it coming at us very quickly. My very pregnant daughter and younger daughter was with us. I immediately sent them down into the cabin and locked all hatches. Pulled the anchor and lowered the keel. We tried to beat the storm to the inlet for safe harbor but that did not happen. We had anchored to fish a little bit. Now I'm so glad it was anchored so that we had time to walk about the sailboat and prepare for a storm. We tried to motor in and the boat was on it's side the entire time, I was hanging onto the lifelines to stay on the boat. Steering toward the inlet. The storm overran us and it was a real wild ride for a while. My daughters were screaming because the water was over the windows. We couldn't cut the engine because water would have came over the back of sailboat and swamp us. We made it into the inlet and then tried to stick it on a sandbar so that we would not collide with people's docks. Missed it by inches.
 
RSBM
OK, I found Captain Karsten Borner's description of how the Bayesian sunk:

""There was a light and we saw that the ship was aside and then we saw a triangle. So I think she went back down...""

Perhaps the engineer, other early reporting (as you cite), and Borner's account are all correct. What if the Bayesian's bow went under water first, then it went over on its starboard side, and the stern went under as she sunk?

When looking for Karsten Borner's description of the Bayesian sinking, I found "more" recounting by him here:

1. "... the superyacht appeared to have stability problems.... "The center of gravity is too high with this extreme mast,” he explained...

2. "He also described the wind as “violent, very violent,” telling the FT that the wind speed likely reached hurricane strength as “tons of water” came down."

3. "Börner said the crew told him they “closed the ship,” according to the FT."

IMO.
He's trying to put the tall mast at fault but without the keel down and the anchor up and hatches closed there was no way for the boat to not sink.
 
He's trying to put the tall mast at fault but without the keel down and the anchor up and hatches closed there was no way for the boat to not sink.
Right, IMO. I suspect the instability Borner witnessed was the physics at play with a very tall mast, a raised / partially raised keel, an anchor off the bow, as you suggest, and very violent winds he described.
 

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