JAG Armchair Psych Profile Family Dynamics

[dnrslucky1]

After reading this! I wonder if, and or, how often JAG was sexually abused as a child. Possibly by the one person he was closest to. The one who sparks his anger.

 

[Mick]

Lets keep this focused on a psych profile for JAG please.

thanks.

Bipolar I is a bear to manage. He sounds like he was textbook bipolar,imo. It is very difficult to not only find the right cocktail of meds for those that suffer from bipolar, but to keep them med compliant is a whole other issue to deal with.

Bipolar symptoms and anxiety may go hand in hand. Over concern about
the person's 'condition' may produce even more anxiety. Learning to relax
about being 'bipolar' can be a step towards healing. Too many drugs can be as problematic as no drugs. Which one and how much is a delicate balance, and that is why the therapist is there. There is only so much the therapist can do, and the rest is done by the client.

Too much External control of someone who naturally Internally controlled can be a recipe for discord.

 

[Curious Me]

You're very welcome, Curious...glad to be able to help.

Best-
Herding Cats

Wait, don't go, Herding Cats! What do you think about the initial bipolar diagnosis? What arm chair impressions can you supply?

Also wondering if he was on medication, how much drinking he did, and if he used recretional drugs. Still waiting for more info on him to come out.

 

[Tink56]

David Cullen wrote a definitive book about Columbine ten years after the fact. In the text, he describes Klebold and Harris as the "depressive and the psychopath".

Here, from an article in Slate, the writer refers to this classification:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203/

None of his victims means anything to the psychopath. He recognizes other people only as means to obtain what he desires. Not only does he feel no guilt for destroying their lives, he doesn't grasp what they feel. The truly hard-core psychopath doesn't quite comprehend emotions like love or hate or fear, because he has never experienced them directly.

"Because of their inability to appreciate the feelings of others, some psychopaths are capable of behavior that normal people find not only horrific but baffling," Hare writes. "For example, they can torture and mutilate their victims with about the same sense of concern that we feel when we carve a turkey for Thanksgiving dinner."

(Below is the author's website about his research, etc.)
http://davecullen.com/columbine.htm

IMHO, JAG is clearly psychopathic. The psych report for sentencing seems to indicate the same "lack of remorse" that is necessary for rehabilitation. In some ways, if his mother was knowledgeable about psychological abnormalities, she obviously was derelict in her responsibilities or in an extreme state of denial.

 

[passionflower]

Full Moons...didn't you just say yesterday that also worked into dates of some crimes. Is there some kind of club psychology? Is everyone Wiccan Swingers or something?

It bothers me because I posted on Chelseas main thread about the 7 crimes that we know of were within the full moon phases!
Chelsea was murdered 3 days before full moon........JAG arrested on the full moon and Chelsea was found on 2 days after the full moon IIRC.

psychology......mom is admin of mental health.............wierd to me


yes, mom looks like an older Amber, thanks POWAY

 

[cluciano63]

Ted Bundy has some severe mother issues but what set him off, apparently, was the break-up with his first real girlfriend, who became the prototype of his victims. do we know anything about JAG's early relationships?

 

[Herding Cats]

I'm not going anywhere...lol.

Wait, don't go, Herding Cats! What do you think about the initial bipolar diagnosis? What arm chair impressions can you supply?

I've been reviewing some journals and what jumps out at me is that this isn't a "true pedophile" issue, wherein sexual attraction is limited to prepubescent children. Rather, imho (and it's only imho), it seems to me that it's more of an 'opportunistic' issue, meaning that when stressors get too great, action must be taken to alleviate them; in this case, assault and murder, and perhaps many, many more crimes. It's not pure pedophilia (if there is such a thing), but rather a victimologic response; he can control those smaller than he, through intimidation and violence, and that is the release he seeks. It is an outward demonstration of control, an expression of how out-of-control his life is (in his opinion), and an inability to maintain control in his world. To me, this isn't a sex crime; it's a control crime.

I base that on the idea that JAGs ankle bracelet was removed in September '08. Shortly thereafter, we see some indication of criminal behavior if Amber DuBois is indeed his victim. If we were able to be a fly on the wall, we'd likely see many 'stalking' incidents prior to the removal of the bracelet, but no action until afterwards. This is an indication of premeditation, inasmuch as he knows he'd get caught if he acted (he is being tracked), so he did what was not illegal - watching, tracking, and observing of people. Once the bracelet was off, he felt as if there were no more restraints (they couldn't catch him), and he acted.

Bear in mind that this is based in an assumption of Amber Dubois being a victim of his, which I think is very, very likely.

Also wondering if he was on medication, how much drinking he did, and if he used recretional drugs. Still waiting for more info on him to come out.

If he was on medication (which I doubt), any consumption of alcohol would interact with the meds, and create issues. Depending on what he drank (hard liquor v. wine, beer), the amount of drinking he did (regularly or binge), and which meds he was on (lithium, SSRI, typical or atypical psychotropics), the effects could range from a stupor to paradoxical anxiety/paranoia.

Mick, upthread, mentioned something about internal v. external control. Internal control is where we decide ourselves which action to take, based on our own opinion. External control is holding those opinions of others (percieved or actual) and taking them in, and using them. One way it's explained is that children are very, very externally controlled, and it is the maturation process which allows them to learn how to be reliably internally controlled, able to resist impulsivity and able to take their own opinions as valid and good, and apply them into a structured, well balanced life.

An example of external control is following the Drs orders without question; "well, he's a Dr. (expert), he knows what he's doing, I'll just follow his direction even when I think it might be wrong."

Obviously, a blend between internal (self) and external (others) is the appropriate balance. Knowing when the Dr is right, and not because he's the Dr (assumed authority; especially since we know of Drs that are wrong) but because I've run it past my internal control and verified it (through research, plain 'common sense', and outcome assessment), and so choose to follow the Dr's direction is a good example.

And another thing I've been considering is JAGs ability to resist impulsivity. Can he NOT do something inappropriate when the opportunity arises? If so, he has some control over impulsivity; if not, then there is impairment in his impulsivity. And is that impulsivity driven by a psychotic issue, or is it something else entirely? Impulsivity may be part of Bipolar (1 or 2). Inability to control one's actions - indeed, to even forsee the consequences of an action; or to know the consequences of an action but need to take it anyway (compulsivity) is indeed part of BP.

Inability to resist impulses, even knowing the consequences, is both an axis 1 and an axis 2 issue; depending on the issues predicating it, it could be either, or both...BP has some impulsivity issues during the manic phase, and most of the Cluster B's have impulsivity as a hallmark. It makes it hard to determine which axis the impulsivity belongs to.

Alcohol is a known disinhibitor, too. I don't know if he drank, drank excessively, drank while on meds (I don't think he's been on meds for a while), but it is apparent to me from what I've been able to read that impulsivity is a common thread throughout his life, and lends itself quite well to the opportunistic aspect of his crime(s).

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Curious Me]

DICTIONARY DESCRIPTION OF A PSYCOPATH

NOUN:

A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

Sam Vaknin's article on the site link posted below has this quote:

"Scholars such as Robert Hare and Theodore Millon beg to differ. The psychopath has antisocial traits for sure but they are coupled with and enhanced by callousness, ruthlessness, extreme lack of empathy, deficient impulse control, deceitfulness, and sadism."

Read more at Suite101: The Psychopath Antisocial: Devoid of Empathy http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychopathantisocial#ixzz0hS9h7msO

 

[Curious Me]

Ted Bundy has some severe mother issues but what set him off, apparently, was the break-up with his first real girlfriend, who became the prototype of his victims. do we know anything about JAG's early relationships?

Yes! I just reread Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule, and it's true the break-up with his first real gf seemed to set off the crimes. He was living with that one woman, but had gotten back with the first gf and became engaged to her secretly.

Both describe how he discarded them in a disconnected way that they couldn't figure out. Good book. Glad you mentioned it.

Really want to know more about his relationships with his gfs.

 

[Curious Me]

Defendant in teen's murder charmed some
John Albert Gardner III accused of murder

http://www.wtnh.com/dpps/news/national/west/defendant-in-socal-teens-murder-charmed-some-jgr_3259364

 

[Tink56]

It bothers me because I posted on Chelseas main thread about the 7 crimes that we know of were within the full moon phases!
Chelsea was murdered 3 days before full moon........JAG arrested on the full moon and Chelsea was found on 2 days after the full moon IIRC.

psychology......mom is admin of mental health.............wierd to me


yes, mom looks like an older Amber, thanks POWAY

Personally, I always associate the full moon with "odd" behavior whether it's near missese while driving, etc.

However, they have been repeated research studies that indicate that there is no more violent crime during full moons than any other time. But, common sense says to me, that if the moon can pull entire bodies of water like the ocean, it certainly must have some effect on humans who are largely water also. Beats me....

http://www.scienceline.org/2008/03/31/ask-grant-fullmoon/
(An article about the full moon research and "common" sense...)

 

[Wise Old Owl]

When my granny was little - she was born in 1913 so I guess from like 1916 - 1922 or so - she lived near one of those old "insane asylums". One like you see in the movies - spooky, scary. She told me that her mother (and her as she got older) knew when it was a full moon. She said you could hear some of them just screaming and that "window" activity always increased (they could see the windows). She even told me one time one of the guys escaped and how it scared her so very bad.

So, yes I do believe the full moon affects people - some more than others - maybe it also has to do with your chemical balance as well. IDK

 

[Curious Me]

I'm not going anywhere...lol.

...........................................................................................................................

And another thing I've been considering is JAGs ability to resist impulsivity. Can he NOT do something inappropriate when the opportunity arises? If so, he has some control over impulsivity; if not, then there is impairment in his impulsivity. And is that impulsivity driven by a psychotic issue, or is it something else entirely? Impulsivity may be part of Bipolar (1 or 2). Inability to control one's actions - indeed, to even forsee the consequences of an action; or to know the consequences of an action but need to take it anyway (compulsivity) is indeed part of BP.

Inability to resist impulses, even knowing the consequences, is both an axis 1 and an axis 2 issue; depending on the issues predicating it, it could be either, or both...BP has some impulsivity issues during the manic phase, and most of the Cluster B's have impulsivity as a hallmark. It makes it hard to determine which axis the impulsivity belongs to.................................................................................................................................

Best-
Herding Cats

snipped and bolded by me

Also JAG was learning disabled in someway because he was in a special education class in school. I believe he was ADHD which also affects how anger and gratification is controlled by the individual.

Impulseness to the point of actually going out and killing someone is also a self destructive decision, but only if you think you'll be caught. He must have had a high degree of narcissistic confidence in not getting caught tho' by staying in the exact area he committed the crime. (He must have felt he was above the law especially if he'd gotten away with other crimes and developed even more confidence, especially if he did get away with abducting Amber last year.)

 

[Tink56]

snipped and bolded by me

Also JAG was learning disabled in someway because he was in a special education class in school. I believe he was ADHD which also affects how anger and gratification is controlled by the individual.

Impulseness to the point of actually going out and killing someone is also a self destructive decision, but only if you think you'll be caught. He must have had a high degree of narcissistic confidence in not getting caught tho' by staying in the exact area he committed the crime. (He must have felt he was above the law especially if he'd gotten away with other crimes and developed even more confidence, especially if he did get away with abducting Amber last year.)

From what I've read JAG was classified as SED (severly emotionally disturbed).
He was also diagnosed as bipolar when he was very young. (I question that diagnosis at such a young age...)

He supposedly took lithium for a period of time, but it gave him irritable bowel syndrome among other things. Those who knew him mentioned that he changed as he stopped taking the meds. They didn't know if he was taking other medication or what... (I think this information was in the 2000 arrest and trial information.)

(Information from: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/06/deeply-troubled-picture-emerges-of-suspects-life/ )

 

[JBean]

Please lay off the mom for now.
I understand that family dynamics have a lot to do with the psych profile. But this is turning into a rumor thread.
You can explore their relationship from what is known about their relationship.


thanks. As always, this may change as information is revealed.

eta: where this post lands on the thread is entirely random

 

[Curious Me]

My friend has a theory she lives by having to do with the moon. It's part of her dating rules, as well.

Approaching a full moon is a good time to start new things like jobs and love relationships.

After a full moon is a time to reflect on what's been going on, but not start something new.


I know we have a big rain or storm hanging around here today. I can feel it strong, but it isn't raining yet. Makes me feel irratated and not comfortable in my skin. I'd have to agree we humans feel something that's going on up there in the atmosphere. I tend to avoid going places with large groups of people during the Full Moon. It just takes one person losing it.

 

[Herding Cats]

snipped and bolded by me

Also JAG was learning disabled in someway because he was in a special education class in school. I believe he was ADHD which also affects how anger and gratification is controlled by the individual.

I thought I'd read somewhere that he was in a SED (severely emotionally disabled) class...ADHD could qualify for that, but so could early childhood BP...and he was hospitalized at some point, which (and I could be completely wrong...) is what led to his being included in the SED class. I think. I could be utterly off base, but I've had the impression that his hospitalization was in his teen years (while in school).

Impulseness to the point of actually going out and killing someone is also a self destructive decision, but only if you think you'll be caught. He must have had a high degree of narcissistic confidence in not getting caught tho' by staying in the exact area he committed the crime. (He must have felt he was above the law especially if he'd gotten away with other crimes and developed even more confidence, especially if he did get away with abducting Amber last year.)

If he did abduct and kill Amber, this would certainly lead to a sense of "they can't catch me" (and I think it is what happened...). I don't know if it was narcissistic or antisocial, though, inasmuch as if it were narcissistic, that's easily broken in interrogation and narcissitic people are easily led to talk about how great they are, how wonderful they committed the crime, et cetera. If, indeed, he is antisocial, he may be able to deflect all attempts at interrogation simply because the world responds to him, and not he to the world. If he has no guilt, no conscious, then he has nothing to answer for.

But this is complete armchair stuff...without a whole lot more information, and without a whole lot more history of his life, it will be hard to determine what is "wrong" with him...

And, I just want to be clear, I don't think any of this could/should excuse his behavior, and does not amount to any foundation for a NGBRI defense. It doesn't reach that level, not in the least.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Mick]

From what I've read JAG was classified as SED (severly emotionally disturbed).
He was also diagnosed as bipolar when he was very young. (I question that diagnosis at such a young age...)

He supposedly took lithium for a period of time, but it gave him irritable bowel syndrome among other things. Those who knew him mentioned that he changed as he stopped taking the meds. They didn't know if he was taking other medication or what... (I think this information was in the 2000 arrest and trial information.)

(Information from: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/06/deeply-troubled-picture-emerges-of-suspects-life/ )

Why do they give the Lithium in Carbonate form??

If we look on Chemical Warning sites, it's classified as a caustic substance, it burns mucus membranes. Treatment with Lithium, as I understand it, for short time may improve the client's condition, but then there is a fair steep decline.

If Lithium is helpful in controlling mood swings, might it be given as Lithium chloride, Lithium salt?

For instance most of us use Sodium. Sodium chloride to be more specific. Sodium Carbonate would seriously damage ones system if consumed in equivalent amounts.

This is a huge issue for me. It seems that those with unbalances are being pushed off the edge, rather than healed when things like Lithium Carbonate are given.

 

[Leila]

I'm not going anywhere...lol.

I've been reviewing some journals and what jumps out at me is that this isn't a "true pedophile" issue, wherein sexual attraction is limited to prepubescent children. Rather, imho (and it's only imho), it seems to me that it's more of an 'opportunistic' issue, meaning that when stressors get too great, action must be taken to alleviate them; in this case, assault and murder, and perhaps many, many more crimes. It's not pure pedophilia (if there is such a thing), but rather a victimologic response; he can control those smaller than he, through intimidation and violence, and that is the release he seeks. It is an outward demonstration of control, an expression of how out-of-control his life is (in his opinion), and an inability to maintain control in his world. To me, this isn't a sex crime; it's a control crime.

I base that on the idea that JAGs ankle bracelet was removed in September '08. Shortly thereafter, we see some indication of criminal behavior if Amber DuBois is indeed his victim. If we were able to be a fly on the wall, we'd likely see many 'stalking' incidents prior to the removal of the bracelet, but no action until afterwards. This is an indication of premeditation, inasmuch as he knows he'd get caught if he acted (he is being tracked), so he did what was not illegal - watching, tracking, and observing of people. Once the bracelet was off, he felt as if there were no more restraints (they couldn't catch him), and he acted.

Bear in mind that this is based in an assumption of Amber Dubois being a victim of his, which I think is very, very likely.


If he was on medication (which I doubt), any consumption of alcohol would interact with the meds, and create issues. Depending on what he drank (hard liquor v. wine, beer), the amount of drinking he did (regularly or binge), and which meds he was on (lithium, SSRI, typical or atypical psychotropics), the effects could range from a stupor to paradoxical anxiety/paranoia.

Mick, upthread, mentioned something about internal v. external control. Internal control is where we decide ourselves which action to take, based on our own opinion. External control is holding those opinions of others (percieved or actual) and taking them in, and using them. One way it's explained is that children are very, very externally controlled, and it is the maturation process which allows them to learn how to be reliably internally controlled, able to resist impulsivity and able to take their own opinions as valid and good, and apply them into a structured, well balanced life.

An example of external control is following the Drs orders without question; "well, he's a Dr. (expert), he knows what he's doing, I'll just follow his direction even when I think it might be wrong."

Obviously, a blend between internal (self) and external (others) is the appropriate balance. Knowing when the Dr is right, and not because he's the Dr (assumed authority; especially since we know of Drs that are wrong) but because I've run it past my internal control and verified it (through research, plain 'common sense', and outcome assessment), and so choose to follow the Dr's direction is a good example.

And another thing I've been considering is JAGs ability to resist impulsivity. Can he NOT do something inappropriate when the opportunity arises? If so, he has some control over impulsivity; if not, then there is impairment in his impulsivity. And is that impulsivity driven by a psychotic issue, or is it something else entirely? Impulsivity may be part of Bipolar (1 or 2). Inability to control one's actions - indeed, to even forsee the consequences of an action; or to know the consequences of an action but need to take it anyway (compulsivity) is indeed part of BP.

Inability to resist impulses, even knowing the consequences, is both an axis 1 and an axis 2 issue; depending on the issues predicating it, it could be either, or both...BP has some impulsivity issues during the manic phase, and most of the Cluster B's have impulsivity as a hallmark. It makes it hard to determine which axis the impulsivity belongs to.

Alcohol is a known disinhibitor, too. I don't know if he drank, drank excessively, drank while on meds (I don't think he's been on meds for a while), but it is apparent to me from what I've been able to read that impulsivity is a common thread throughout his life, and lends itself quite well to the opportunistic aspect of his crime(s).

Best-
Herding Cats

I wondered about the ankle bracelet. That ankle bracelet was a physical restraint on JAG until it was removed. Once that bracelet was gone, he felt free to act on his impulses. So his physical acts may only go back a year and a half. But in that year and a half there may be a lot of physical attacks or attempts. There may be more cases of incidents like the Dec. 27th jogger that fought and got away. Some may not have reported a man grabbing them.

 

[Tink56]

Why do they give the Lithium in Carbonate form??

If we look on Chemical Warning sites, it's classified as a caustic substance, it burns mucus membranes. Treatment with Lithium, as I understand it, for short time may improve the client's condition, but then there is a fair steep decline.

If Lithium is helpful in controlling mood swings, might it be given as Lithium chloride, Lithium salt?

For instance most of us use Sodium. Sodium chloride to be more specific. Sodium Carbonate would seriously damage ones system if consumed in equivalent amounts.

This is a huge issue for me. It seems that those with unbalances are being pushed off the edge, rather than healed when things like Lithium Carbonate are given.

Good thoughts, I think. We need a resident pharmacist or chemist to be sure.