Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

[Opie]

Oh my! Where to start on that NCR article and the comments after it. "Routine tonsillectomy" is first, of course. "Brain death" is part of a conspiracy to harvest organs...um, yeah, okay. That would be a very large conspiracy indeed. Comparing Terri Schiavo to Jahi is beyond ridiculous. Giving absolute credence to the video of Jahi "responding to her mother's voice"....no words.

That article makes me ashamed to admit to being a Catholic at any time in my life. No effort appears to have been made to let inconvenient facts get in the way.

 

[forthelost]

For the record, the Catholic Church accepts brain death as death. Byrne would be the outlier there, especially since he seems to imply death is something to be feared.

 

[Hiandmighty]

These people have their extreme version of Catholicism.

 

[K_Z]

Last year, Jahi McMath's sad and tragic situation in California, was being compared contemporaneously to that of Marlise Munoz in Texas. (Marlise Munoz was a pregnant woman 13 weeks along, who suffered a collapse and cardiac arrest at home in the middle of the night. She was kept on life support by doctors and authorities over the objections of her husband and family, and against what she had expressed as her wishes.)

This year, Jahi McMath's situation is being compared contemporaneously by this physician commentator to Brittany Maynard, a 29 year old woman with stage 4 glioblastoma (brain tumor), who has decided to end her life under Oregon's death with dignity law. Note that the author is critical of how the media presents both cases and headlines.

Are We Playing God By Consciously Choosing Life Or Death?

(snipped)

As a woman and a human being, I empathize with both stories. However, as a medical professional, I am led to look at the facts and have been surprised with the lack of medical knowledge in all of this media coverage. Take, for instance, the headlines in Jahi McMath's case, stating that she "responds" to her mother's voice by "moving her hands and feet when prompted." From a medical viewpoint, these are misleading statements. It is widely known in the medical field that brain-dead patients show spontaneous movements such as jerking of fingers or bending of toes that can be disturbing or misleading to family members.

It is important to understand that these movements, however shocking to watch, are spinal reflexes and have nothing to do with brain activity. In Jahi's case, her vital organs continue to function by way of life support. This means that such reflexes are very likely to be manifested in her hands and feet. Note that at no point in the video, does the mother ask her to raise an eyebrow, smile or show any movement other than in her hands and feet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-misee-harris/are-we-playing-god-by-con_b_5982528.html

 

[al66pine]

....
This year, Jahi McMath's situation .... Note that the author is critical of how the media presents both cases and headlines....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-misee-harris/are-we-playing-god-by-con_b_5982528.html

. sbm

From K_Z's ^huffpo link^
"This means that such reflexes are very likely to be manifested in her hands and feet.
Note that at no point in the video, does the mother ask her to raise an eyebrow, smile or show any movement other than in her hands and feet." bbm
Many here read about Jahi's hand & foot movements being scientifically explained as (my paraphrasing) involuntary spasms,
not indicative of any brain activity.
Our med professionals have explained it waaaaaay more elegantly and medically accurately.

The idea of requesting other movements like smiling simply did not occur to me. Duh.

 

[K_Z]

. sbm

From K_Z's ^huffpo link^
"This means that such reflexes are very likely to be manifested in her hands and feet.
Note that at no point in the video, does the mother ask her to raise an eyebrow, smile or show any movement other than in her hands and feet." bbm
Many here read about Jahi's hand & foot movements being scientifically explained as (my paraphrasing) involuntary spasms,
not indicative of any brain activity.
Our med professionals have explained it waaaaaay more elegantly and medically accurately.

The idea of requesting other movements like smiling simply did not occur to me. Duh.

Well, to move the muscles of the face and tongue, move the eyeballs, shrug the shoulders, turn the head, etc., you need cranial nerves.

Cranial nerves are rather important. (Remember the mnemonics for those very important 12 nerves? "On old olympus' towering top"...etc. "Some say marry money... etc. for the sensory and motor components of each nerve.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranial_nerves

The cranial nerves are often the first structures to be affected by different forms of brain injury, such as hemorrhaging or tumors, partly because they are sensitive to compression.

Well, the central structural area of Jahi's brain where one finds cranial nerves originating is....umm...let's just say "missing" in the one view of the MRI Dolan displayed.

 

[Nore]

The only way to prove beyond a doubt that Jahi is alive~remove the ventilator. See what happens That is one way, I've been there when brain testing for death was done. Takes an amount of time. My son breathed on his own. My husband did not. A breath and a half and he was gone. I checked his eyes. They know what they are doing. Ref: Dr. J. Garavaglia Orlando Florida, Medical Examiner. Look her up, she has good articles. They also do blood work, blood from the dead is different from the living.

 

[K_Z]

http://www.timesenterprise.com/news...cle_8e4a955c-606c-11e4-a875-1b3e2e21ee58.html

The National Association of Evangelicals agrees. In a new resolution titled “Allowing Natural Death,” it called terms such as “aid in dying” and “death with dignity” signposts on the road to euthanasia.

Consider the case of California teenager Jahi McMath, who was declared brain-dead by physicians in California nearly a year ago. She is maintained on life support at a care facility in New Jersey — a state that allows people to reject a finding of brain death on religious grounds. Court documents describe Jahi’s family as “Christians with firm religious beliefs that as long as the heart is beating, Jahi is alive.”

The girl’s Baptist parents may find support in the NAE’s Oct. 16 resolution. It specifies a definition: The Uniform Determination of Death Act (1980), which defines death as the “irreversible cessation” of the heart or all functions of the “entire brain, including the brain stem.”

National Association of Evangelicals policy resolution "Allowing Natural Death" Oct 16, 2014.

http://www.nae.net/government-relations/policy-resolutions/1201-allowing-natural-death-2014

For example, is it moral to withdraw a life-support system that is believed to be extending the dying process rather than providing therapeutic benefit? The NAE believes that in cases where patients are terminally ill, death appears imminent and treatment offers no medical hope for recovery, it is morally appropriate to request the withholding or withdrawal of life-support systems, allowing natural death to occur. In such cases, every effort should be made to keep the patient free of pain and suffering, with emotional and spiritual support being provided until the patient dies.

The NAE affirms the Uniform Determination of Death Act (1980), which defines death as either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem.1 The withholding or withdrawal of extraordinary life-support systems to allow natural death at this time is not only morally appropriate, but compelling.

BBM above. Now, the way I read the NAE resolution on "allowing death", I disagree with the author that Jahi's family may find support there. NAE affirms the UDDA definitions, and believes it is moral when therapy offers no medical hope for recovery to withdraw support. The area that could be quibbled about, IMO, is "to request the withholding.....", and the word "or" in the UDDA definition. It could be that NAE believes that the family, and only the family, should make the decision to withdraw support-- in essence, denying the properly conducted legal and medical finding of death. And the "or" in the UDDA definition may mean that the NAE believes a family can choose one or the other, circulatory arrest, OR cessation of all brain functions. I can't really tell from their website materials. It appears to me that the NAE may advocate for families making those determinations, not doctors or the law. If that's correct, the laws in 49 states are not in agreement. That would be kind of problematic for a lot of evangelicals in those other 49 states.

Also-- I'll put in a plug for Atul Gawande's newest book (just came out, and I'm not done with it yet!), "Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End." I love all his books-- I'm a big fan. (The article above has a typo in the title-- they wrote "Bring Mortal", lol!)

http://www.amazon.com/Being-Mortal-...8&qid=1414767596&sr=1-1&keywords=being+mortal

 

[SwampMama]

The only way to prove beyond a doubt that Jahi is alive~remove the ventilator. See what happens That is one way, I've been there when brain testing for death was done. Takes an amount of time. My son breathed on his own. My husband did not. A breath and a half and he was gone. I checked his eyes. They know what they are doing. Ref: Dr. J. Garavaglia Orlando Florida, Medical Examiner. Look her up, she has good articles. They also do blood work, blood from the dead is different from the living.

That's what I would like to know, in the year since she died, how many breaths has Jahi taken ABOVE what the ventilator provides? I'm guessing none! If she is as alert as her mom says then why is she not doing the simple act of breathing? She has no lung issues, is not sedated and her mom claims she follows commands. Ok, so breath, take a breath above what the vent provides.

MY BIL was in a horrible accident earlier this year, Truck flipped and pinned him under it in a ditch where he basically downed on muddy water. He was not expected to live. We asked for the honest truth and they told us " his lungs look like sh**". He had some head trauma, was heavily sedated for a long time (weeks) on a vent but within the first few days, our first glimmer of hope was the fact that he was taking breaths above what the vent provided.

(He has had a long recovery and is home again, happily back on his tractor and tending his cows. He still cannot taste anything. For weeks after he woke up he was confused and called his wife by an ex-girlfriends name (similar names) and regularly attempted to get his brothers to break him out of the hospital. When they refused he called one of them a dumba** (which is hilarious because he doesn't usually curse). Luckily his wife is goodnatured and laughed off the name confusion.

So why isn't Jahi breathing any on her own?

 

[Lippy]

Dolan acknowledged at some point in the last press conference that the part of the brain (the brain stem) that controls respiration is "severely damaged" ( it is actually missing entirely) and that's why she can't breathe on her own. They know that she will never breathe on her own so they aren't going to do the apnea test.

I remember back in the 1960's that practically no one ever got taken off of a ventilator until cardiac death occurred. The only thing that mattered was to keep the patient "alive" doing everything possible for as long as possible even when there was no hope or quite possibly, brain death. After a while strenuous " quality of life" debates began and it became socially acceptable to remove medically futile patients off of life support and/or refuse tube feelings.
This is strictly an anecdotal account of how things used to be, I have no idea what the laws were but I do remember when people simply were not allowed to die if it could be prevented . Patients and their families suffered a great deal more and for a great deal longer than necessary until people started considering quality of life and the toll that futile medical care was taking. I'm sure some of the older members here can recall the same. I know that there are still patients receiving futile care at the family's insistence but years ago it was the norm and not the exception.

 

[Oblio]

Dolan acknowledged at some point in the last press conference that the part of the brain (the brain stem) that controls respiration is "severely damaged" ( it is actually missing entirely) and that's why she can't breathe on her own. They know that she will never breathe on her own so they aren't going to do the apnea test.

I remember back in the 1960's that practically no one ever got taken off of a ventilator until cardiac death occurred. The only thing that mattered was to keep the patient "alive" doing everything possible for as long as possible even when there was no hope or quite possibly, brain death. After a while strenuous " quality of life" debates began and it became socially acceptable to remove medically futile patients off of life support and/or refuse tube feelings.
This is strictly an anecdotal account of how things used to be, I have no idea what the laws were but I do remember when people simply were not allowed to die if it could be prevented . Patients and their families suffered a great deal more and for a great deal longer than necessary until people started considering quality of life and the toll that futile medical care was taking. I'm sure some of the older members here can recall the same. I know that there are still patients receiving futile care at the family's insistence but years ago it was the norm and not the exception.

I find this to be cruel except in cases of brain death. That it is considered acceptable for someone in a persistent vegetative state is beyond me. I understand the quality of life issues, but they need to come up with (or rather legalize) a swift and painless way to relieve a person of living for medical reasons.

 

[Lippy]

I find this to be cruel except in cases of brain death. That it is considered acceptable for someone in a persistent vegetative state is beyond me. I understand the quality of life issues, but they need to come up with (or rather legalize) a swift and painless way to relieve a person of living for medical reasons.

I can't speak of all people in all situations, especially those with certain comorbidities, but it can be a very peaceful way to go.
When my mother stopped accepting nutrition by mouth we didn't intervene and she went very quietly and peacefully. We couldn't have hoped for a more peaceful end.

 

[Oblio]

I can't speak of all people in all situations, especially those with certain comorbidities, but it can be a very peaceful way to go.
When my mother stopped accepting nutrition by mouth we didn't intervene and she went very quietly and peacefully. We couldn't have hoped for a more peaceful end.

Thank you for the input. I could see it acceptable for someone lucid and in favor of the choice. To me, it seems like starvation would be cruel, but I suppose if someone has already lost their appetite due to illness I could understand it being peaceful.

 

[jjenny]

I find this to be cruel except in cases of brain death. That it is considered acceptable for someone in a persistent vegetative state is beyond me. I understand the quality of life issues, but they need to come up with (or rather legalize) a swift and painless way to relieve a person of living for medical reasons.

I totally agree. Some patients in vegetative state can last a long time after feeding tube is withdrawn.
I fail to see how it's humane.
But in Jahi's case, because she is brain dead, her heart will stop very quickly if ventilator is turned off. We are talking minutes, not days.

 

[Oblio]

I totally agree. Some patients in vegetative state can last a long time after feeding tube is withdrawn.
I fail to see how it's humane.
But in Jahi's case, because she is brain dead, her heart will stop very quickly if ventilator is turned off. We are talking minutes, not days.

Yep. I'm actually completely neutral. A body is a body, not a person. Whether they keep it going or let it go is no different to me. I also feel the same way about my body. When I'm gone, it's up to my family to do what they wish. I'll no longer be around so it's not important to me, but it may be important to them. If I were to choose, I'd choose organ donation, science, green burial or cremation.

 

[Steft50]

I have a question for our medical people if they don't mind. After a year on a vent would someone even have the muscle tone or structure needed to breath on her own?

 

[Nore]

That's what I would like to know, in the year since she died, how many breaths has Jahi taken ABOVE what the ventilator provides? I'm guessing none! If she is as alert as her mom says then why is she not doing the simple act of breathing? She has no lung issues, is not sedated and her mom claims she follows commands. Ok, so breath, take a breath above what the vent provides.

MY BIL was in a horrible accident earlier this year, Truck flipped and pinned him under it in a ditch where he basically downed on muddy water. He was not expected to live. We asked for the honest truth and they told us " his lungs look like sh**". He had some head trauma, was heavily sedated for a long time (weeks) on a vent but within the first few days, our first glimmer of hope was the fact that he was taking breaths above what the vent provided.

(He has had a long recovery and is home again, happily back on his tractor and tending his cows. He still cannot taste anything. For weeks after he woke up he was confused and called his wife by an ex-girlfriends name (similar names) and regularly attempted to get his brothers to break him out of the hospital. When they refused he called one of them a dumba** (which is hilarious because he doesn't usually curse). Luckily his wife is goodnatured and laughed off the name confusion.

So why isn't Jahi breathing any on her own?

---------
Hi SwampMama, Jahi doesn't breathe on her own because the child is dead. You and I know this~ I think her mom is now backed into a wall. What is she going to do? Take a dead body across a State line, must be embalmed .Maybe a private plane would work if you can afford it. I have a funeral Director friend so this is truth. How would they handle it in Ca.? where can they take her, home again. I feel this has gone beyond believing, it's now a problem. Sure it hurts to remove from vent.. but necessary. They should have listened. To keep saying move your arm over and over, it happens is not on command. You say move your leg I move it pronto that is command. She is reflex. Take care.

 

[newone]

---------
Hi SwampMama, Jahi doesn't breathe on her own because the child is dead. You and I know this~ I think her mom is now backed into a wall. What is she going to do? Take a dead body across a State line, must be embalmed .Maybe a private plane would work if you can afford it. I have a funeral Director friend so this is truth. How would they handle it in Ca.? where can they take her, home again. I feel this has gone beyond believing, it's now a problem. Sure it hurts to remove from vent.. but necessary. They should have listened. To keep saying move your arm over and over, it happens is not on command. You say move your leg I move it pronto that is command. She is reflex. Take care.

bbm : Wow! How did they manage to move her the first time: from CA to NJ?

 

[Nore]

That's what I would like to know, in the year since she died, how many breaths has Jahi taken ABOVE what the ventilator provides? I'm guessing none! If she is as alert as her mom says then why is she not doing the simple act of breathing? She has no lung issues, is not sedated and her mom claims she follows commands. Ok, so breath, take a breath above what the vent provides.

MY BIL was in a horrible accident earlier this year, Truck flipped and pinned him under it in a ditch where he basically downed on muddy water. He was not expected to live. We asked for the honest truth and they told us " his lungs look like sh**". He had some head trauma, was heavily sedated for a long time (weeks) on a vent but within the first few days, our first glimmer of hope was the fact that he was taking breaths above what the vent provided.

(He has had a long recovery and is home again, happily back on his tractor and tending his cows. He still cannot taste anything. For weeks after he woke up he was confused and called his wife by an ex-girlfriends name (similar names) and regularly attempted to get his brothers to break him out of the hospital. When they refused he called one of them a dumba** (which is hilarious because he doesn't usually curse). Luckily his wife is goodnatured and laughed off the name confusion.

So why isn't Jahi breathing any on her own?

-----------
Just want to add I am so happy for your BIL.. God Bless him!!

 

[lawstudent]

bbm : Wow! How did they manage to move her the first time: from CA to NJ?

Brain dead and a dead body are not the same thing - while I totally get the point and why people think this situation is horrible, this distinction needs to be made because it's what keeps this debate going. For health reasons, a body must be embalmed because it is decomposing. A brain dead person is not deteriorating in the same way (although I understand it does happen to some extent over time) or at the same rate, and is not a dead body. They are brain dead and can be recognized as legally dead upon diagnosis, but they are not dead in the way a dead body is because the body hasn't reached that point of total deterioration. I'm not trying to say she is alive is any meaningful way, but she is not literally dead. That is a biological state, not a legal or ethical one. I don't think any of those embalming laws would be enforced in the first place, or upheld if they were, because the embalming concerns do not apply to non-dead bodies. If that were true, you could never move a brain-dead person for the purposes of having family say goodbye or something. And I don't think that's even an actual law because it would have to be federal and bodies are moved prior to embalming across state all the time - maybe there are restrictions on how long after death and in what manner?