I suppose because it might be the truth???? :dunno:
BOESP,
It could be. Just thought Burke's point of reference, e.g the kitchen was interesting.
.
I suppose because it might be the truth???? :dunno:
Kold, don't be modest. Your posts are thoughtful and intelligent. I think anyone who can compose that photo of how the size 12 Bloomies would appear on a child of 6, is very clever and smart. You have managed to put a true life image to this case for all to consider.
I don't always agree with you, but I certainly make it a point to faithfully check out your posts.
AzWriter
Oh, you're very kind to say this...wait...you don't always agree with me? :dramaqueen:
Well, actually, neither do I. I've been wrong about this case waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I've been right, through the years. How could we not be without knowing all the evidence or having someone who does give us the theory of prosecution that actually fits it all?
But I do have to make one confession to you, which I've had to make before as the avatar I use does confuse people.
I didn't make that sculpture and demonstration. Believe me, I wish I was as clever as the Scottish wench who did, Jayelles. (A member here and at FFJ, who was an active poster for many years but now is on to dazzle the world with other accomplishments.)
Jayelles thought of and devised the experiment. She spent years waiting until her own little girl grew to the approx. size of JB at six years of age so she could take measurements from her to make the sculptured model. She also collected the various sizes of Bloomies herself on trips to New York. Then she photographed and posted the results.
If you look at the bottom of my posts, I have a link to Jayelles' thread at FFJ where Jayelles documented this. Actually, there are two important threads about this stuck at the top of the JB forum there, as a reference.
I advise anyone to at least check out her pictures and description of how she conducted this truly brilliant demonstration: you cannot possibly see it and not have questions about why Patsy Ramsey would ever tell LE that JB put those Bloomies on herself and wore them, either to play in that day or to go to the Whites. They would literally have fallen down to her feet. Putting them under clothing would have bunched them up so that they clearly would have been noticeable under her little VELVET pants.
And how on earth would Patsy Ramsey pull JB's velvet pants off while the child slept deeply in her bed and not pull the Bloomies off with them? Wouldn't she have to pull them back onto the child? Would she then not notice how large they were?
And why on earth would the Ramseys withhold this package of size 12-14 Bloomies until the end of 2002 after someone in their employ found it in a packing box in Atlanta with other Ramsey possessions?
And why on earth would Team Ramsey's best shills, Mary Lacy and Lou Smit, neglect to have that package processed for fingerprints and DNA, inside and out, including the remaining six pairs of panties? If they did, it's very odd that Kolar never heard or saw anything about it, at least to me it is.
So we have the unbelievably huge panties found on the child's body; the package from which they came missing for at least five years, if the package turned in years later actually was the original; the mother claiming the child put those on herself and wore them that day/night; and the mother claiming that she never noticed they were so large when undressing and redressing the child in pants herself.
For my money, Patsy lied about that, and howdy. I think Jayelles proved that brilliantly.
I just hope that Boulder LE had the expertise and insight to do their own documentation of those Bloomies, with a professional model, expert charts and graphs from companies who manufactured the Bloomies, or at least girl's underwear.
So as many times as I get asked about the unsettling avatar I use, mainly because of the red leggings Jayelles put on the model to give a better contrast to the size of the model and the Bloomies, which people find confusing and scary, I keep it.
I don't want to take credit for Jayelles' brilliant work, though, so I put the link at the bottom of my posts. (Sigh...that woman could make me jealous if I were the jealous type.)
I guess I could make it bigger, now that I think of it. :doh:
And do we believe the R's? How would said person in their employ understand what the significance of the size-12's were?And why on earth would the Ramseys withhold this package of size 12-14 Bloomies until the end of 2002 after someone in their employ found it in a packing box in Atlanta with other Ramsey possessions?
Maybe they did. I doubt it, they likely bagged and tagged the size-12's then buried them beneath a mountain of Ramsey forensic evidence, keeping no record of where they were deposited.And why on earth would Team Ramsey's best shills, Mary Lacy and Lou Smit, neglect to have that package processed for fingerprints and DNA, inside and out, including the remaining six pairs of panties? If they did, it's very odd that Kolar never heard or saw anything about it, at least to me it is.
KoldKase,
And do we believe the R's? How would said person in their employ understand what the significance of the size-12's were?
I guess the size-12's were handed in to demonstrate that they originally existed, as per Patsy's story, otherwise, maybe the intruder took them?
Maybe they did. I doubt it, they likely bagged and tagged the size-12's then buried them beneath a mountain of Ramsey forensic evidence, keeping no record of where they were deposited.
.
It was pretty important evidence, so I think the Ramseys' lawyers would have passed this little evidence fact to Team Ramsey, compliments of Alex "Relationship with the suspects" Hunter, no doubt.
At least by the time Patsy was drilled about this in 2000 she knew it was important. She even stated she'd "heard something" about it before then, so if she knew, her agents in deception no doubt knew, as well.
We don't actually know how this package was "found" or "where"; the info we got was vague from Lin Wood and his online shill, jams at the swamp. Jams actually changed her story on that a couple of times, which you can read all about on the thread I mentioned at FFJ. (Sorry, it's a long haul through that thread now because it was combined with another thread on the Bloomies. I don't have time now, but maybe later I can look for it if no one else wants to brave it. lease
One story jams told was the package was found while looking for the clothing the Ramseys wore at the Whites' party and/or on Dec. 26th, to turn into the BPD. That would have been in the year after the murder. Another story, unless I'm completely confused--yeah, it happens a lot these days--was that the PI who worked for the Ramseys was looking for that Santa Bear, the one Alex Hunter had the whole country looking for, and found the package then in the boxes which had been stored from moving the family's belongings.
I have always thought if this was the original package, the PI--often former cops who are retired, etc.--knew what he had and that if he or the Ramseys didn't turn them over, they were withholding evidence in a murder investigation. If they flat out destroyed them or threw them out, even worse. While I think there was a lot of corruption engaged in all the way round among the lawyers, DAs, and investigators in this case, destroying evidence might have been something the PI wasn't willing to engage in. So the package was held in limbo until Mary "Exoneration" Lacy got control of the case.
Or even worse, they found evidence which only led back to the Ramseys as guilty of this crime--so they then buried it with more excuses and disinformation, like the six different DNA profiles found on the ligatures and other items from the crime scene.
ITA. This what prosecuters are famous for, e.g. just coming up with evidence that suits their case.Or even worse, they found evidence which only led back to the Ramseys as guilty of this crime--so they then buried it with more excuses and disinformation, like the six different DNA profiles found on the ligatures and other items from the crime scene.
BOESP,
It could be. Just thought Burke's point of reference, e.g the kitchen was interesting.
.
I don't think BR necessarily heard the refrigerator door, especially if he was already in the kitchen...unless he heard JB in the kitchen and went down. What I do think is possible, is he was in the kitchen that night, so he had the kitchen on his mind, and kind of subconsciously and randomly, made the association to the refrigerator. MOO.FWIW, I didn't take Burke's comment about hearing the opening of the refrigerator door to mean he heard it the night JonBenet died. I took it that Burke implied he didn't hear anything that night and if something had of happened he should have heard it since in his experience he had, in the past, been able to hear the refrigerator door open while he was in his bedroom.
There are just some concepts that are hard to get across in "forum language."
On page 108 of his book, Kolar states: "Boulder PD investigators would find written materials in the Ramsey household that suggested John Ramsey may have at one time been researching the purchase of a stun gun, or that he had owned one. Nothing ever came of this lead, however, and Smit continued to theorize that the marks of a stun gun found on JonBenet pointed to an intruder being involved in her death."
The manufacturers of the stun gun named as the weapon by Smit (the Air Taser) told the Boulder PD "in no uncertain terms that the marks on JonBenet's body would not have been created by their device." (Kolar, same page.)
BOESP,
It could be. Just thought Burke's point of reference, e.g the kitchen was interesting.
.
If the huge panties were not on jonbenet until her death then they must have been taken from one of the open xmas packages. After the jab and wiping and decision to redress her. What i can't figure out is why there is blood on the pink gown and white blanket but no urine on the blanket. Was the blanket taken into the wine room at the same time as grabbing the panties but still before the strangling? It's mind boggling. If any adult staged even one aspect then they are capable of much more. It wouldn't suprise me if the blanket and gown started out as staging and even the scream and scraping sound heard by neighbors.
Depends, e.g. was Patsy telling the truth about the motive for purchasing the size-12's?If the huge panties were not on jonbenet until her death then they must have been taken from one of the open xmas packages.
Well, a couple of things that the Rs didn't want to be associated with, was the pineapple and the flashlight. Since the flashlight was found in the kitchen, ImO, whatever happened, started in the kitchen. And BR saying he could hear the refrigerator being opened, is another red lag, IMO. For arguments sake, say JBR made the mess on the chocolates, and then went to the kitchen with BR. Their noise could have awakened PR, so she went to check JB's room, and then found the mess. She would have been enraged. If she went to the kitchen, JB would have instantly known she was in big trouble, and why. She would have known that face well. She then could have taken off running, (like so many kids do, when in trouble), and like a lot of moms, PR could have grabbed her by her hair, to pull her back. This would have made JB scream, and now even more enraged, PR could have bashed her in the head, with whatever she could grab. I happen to think the flashlight was used for a flashlight, (just a nagging suspicion, that she wouldn't
have left the murder weapon in plain sight), so were there any golf clubs in the kitchen? Anyway, I think it's possible that PR thought JB was dead, and to cover what she did, decided to make it look like an intruder/rapist, had killed her. Now, did she think the paintbrush would pass as actual penetration, or was she trying to cover prior abuse? IDK, but I think it's possible that she did what her sick mind conjured up, to look like a rapist. No, this isn't a foolproof theory, but IMO, those chocolates could be seen as motive, so to speak, and if PR found them, I can only imagine how enraged she would have been. A lot of women have a snapping point, and this could have been hers. I've gone round and round with theories, and this is just another one, because when I actually think about the different variables, I have a hard time with BR as a suspect. Not that he wasn't physically capable, but all the later drama, just doesn't make sense. MOO, and I may change my mind after reading the book.
JBs trip to get the pineapple could have been a bribe or a reward for cooperation for some unnamed act. Perhaps,whatever transpired next....is the catalyst which ignighted the fuse for the tragedy which followed.MOO
That's where I'm at too :0)
Anyone with the medical-field knowledge - I need your help, please.
From AR, page 5: 'At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and sholders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities'.
If JBR's body is laying flat on the even FLAT surface with her hands up - why such a difference in rigor mortis count between her upper (hands and shoulder) and lower body?
Does it mean that at certain time, her upper body was elevated (for example, her head and shoulders were laying on the pillow) before placing on the flat surface?
Thank you in advance for education.
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet05.gif
Perhaps because the lower body is further from the heart?
The flashlight, to me, has a similar provenance as the pineapple because of the response they both elicited i.e. no idea about the pineapple and no idea where the flashlight had come from. Yes they had wiped it down BUT they didn't know where BURKE had got it from (Burke was sent to his room and asked no further questions throughout the staging).
I think the flashlight was for Burke's planned trip down to the basement for the presents etc as he couldn't switch on any intermediary lights (hall, stairs etc) without risking his parents waking up. There really is no other explanation for the wiped clean flashlight. The parents wouldnt have bothered using a flashlight if theyd been up to no good with Jon Benet, accidentally or otherwise they would have turned on lights. Furthermore, they wouldnt have bothered, or been in sound enough mind, to have wiped it clean unless it was readily apparent that this had been the weapon used to inflict the first blow possibly the fatal blow on terror-stricken first inspection. So why the batteries also wiped? Did they really use it all night and have to swap batteries?
I don't think so. There were lights in the basement an adult could switch on.
But why were the batteries wiped clean? A seemingly surreal and painstaking detail for a killer to bother with and an even grander leap of imagination for one of the parents to include in a lawyer-ordained evidence wipedown.
One thing seems apparent. The extra care and meticulous attention devoted to cleaning the flashlight strongly implies that it was the murder weapon. But why the attention to the batteries when Patsy had left her prints on the bowl, clothing fibres all over JB and, possibly, the last item garment JB ever wore, the red pullover, clumsily tucked out of view in plain sight?
.
Anyone with the medical-field knowledge - I need your help, please.
From AR, page 5: 'At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and sholders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities'.
If JBR's body is laying flat on the even FLAT surface with her hands up - why such a difference in rigor mortis count between her upper (hands and shoulder) and lower body?
Does it mean that at certain time, her upper body was elevated (for example, her head and shoulders were laying on the pillow) before placing on the flat surface?
Thank you in advance for education.
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet05.gif
or, it could have been 2 hungry kids, grabbing a snack. Personally, I think JB willingly, sharing pineapple with BR, helps knock him out as a suspect. If he had been abusing her in the past, would she have gone with him? If he had just smeared feces on her chocolates, (like so may people think), would she have walked to the kitchen with him? Also, what did he do after he supposedly bashed her head? There are some theories that he siezed this opportunity, to poke and prod her. Sorry, but that doesn't make a lick of sense. No 9 year old, is this kind of 'curious'... not unless he's one sick little kid, and by all accounts, BR wasn't a part of the psychologically ill. This would be insanity, and he was not insane. And thiis is where the BDI theories, start to unravel, IMO. JB's skull was bashed beyond repair, so what did BR do? abused her dying body? wrote the ransom note? wiped down his fingerprints? called his mother in to clean up his mess, after he was done poking and prodding? And PR, out of fear of hurting his reputation, agreed to help? I don't believe any of this happened. A head bash like JB suffered, resulted from rage, not much doubt about that, so what could JB have done, while eating pineapple, to enrage BR so? moo.JBs trip to get the pineapple could have been a bribe or a reward for cooperation for some unnamed act. Perhaps,whatever transpired next....is the catalyst which ignighted the fuse for the tragedy which followed.MOO