Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #2

[Rush4087]

I also don't think this handkerchief technique gives us the killer's origin, added to my point that I'm not 100% the killer actually did this to begin with. Also, he was wearing gloves. Seems strange that he would employe the handkerchief and the gloves and yet still manage to cut himself so deeply. He was wearing gloves when he entered the house and when he began the assault. Wouldn't he think that was enough protection? Assuming, of course, he would know that knife slippage were even possible or likely?

I would also add, millions of Tokyoites will have handkerchiefs on them, they're sold at every konbini in the land, pretty much. Admittedly, use in the humid summers is far more common. But I had handkerchiefs on me while in Japan too and folding them around my blade wouldn't tell you I was half-British, half-Spanish any more than me eating spinach for lunch that day. Of course, I can't (and won't) discount the possibility of some sort of connection to a fish factory, whether Chinese or Filipino or not. But a Chinese or Filipino factory worker would need a way of getting in and out of the country undetected as well as a way of getting on to a US military base. So, until there is something stronger pointing to a factory, let alone one in China or the Philippines, I'm not convinced.

Just curious, why do you think he began the assault with gloves on? If his finger prints were all over the inside of the house, at some point he obviously took them off.

Re: a US military base.. I believe they had mostly been vacated by US military by the time of the murders, but there certainly were US bases in the northern Philippines (mentioned as a location possibly associated with unusual handkerchief folding) at one time. (Idk, I guess the waist pack would be too new to be associated with sand from an at-the-time-closed US military base in N Phillipines?)

And speaking of fingerprints..earlier this week there were several posts about: 1.) the 50 minutes (there may be an unknown / not-discussed reason that could explain the delay in calling police, but jmo, I think it is improbable that Haruko simply fainted), 2.) the problem with the noise discrepancy (nobody next door - apparently close to an open window - hears screaming, as three people are stabbed to death close to that window) and possible TMPD dissatisfaction with some of the information provided by those next door, and 3.) An’s son (time spent in UK, his age, and the possibility of a young person known to him).

You commented on the age range of any acquaintance - and of An’s son (being likely too young at around 13 - which I agree with), but you also said it would astound you if detectives didn’t “go through that kind of circle. [..] Though possible they did and simply didn’t fingerprint someone who had a good alibi or some such.”

What circle do you mean? Are you saying you don’t know whether An’s son was ever fingerprinted? I would find it hard to believe that TMPD didn’t collect fingerprints and DNA from everybody next door (incl An’s son - and husband if he present that night). Can you provide any clarification? Jmo and tia

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Just curious, why do you think he began the assault with gloves on? If his finger prints were all over the inside of the house, at some point he obviously took them off.

Thanks for your questions, Rush. We know categorically he started the assault with the gloves on as there are both no prints on any methods of the entry in the house and also he slices open the gloves while stabbing Mikio. At some point after this, he takes them off in the kitchen sink. They completely soaked with his blood. My guess is this happens after first stabbing Niina and Yasuko but then getting the carving knife. That’s seemingly the first time he enters the kitchen.

Re: a US military base.. I believe they had mostly been vacated by US military by the time of the murders, but there certainly were US bases in the northern Philippines (mentioned as a location possibly associated with unusual handkerchief folding) at one time. (Idk, I guess the waist pack would be too new to be associated with sand from an at-the-time-closed US military base in N Phillipines?)

There is zero connecting the suspect to the Philippines beyond some vague possibility of the handkerchiefs. It could also be from Philadelphia or Minsk, there’s zero concentre that points to the Philippines, let alone a US military base. There is, however, a US military base 40 mins away from the house and a concrete link to one in California. In 14 years of following this case, I’m yet to see a single good reason why this would be invalid or a coincidence. It’s a clue until I have good reason to take it us such.

And speaking of fingerprints..earlier this week there were several posts about: 1.) the 50 minutes (there may be an unknown / not-discussed reason that could explain the delay in calling police, but jmo, I think it is improbable that Haruko simply fainted), 2.) the problem with the noise discrepancy (nobody next door - apparently close to an open window - hears screaming, as three people are stabbed to death close to that window) and possible TMPD dissatisfaction with some of the information provided by those next door, and 3.) An’s son (time spent in UK, his age, and the possibility of a young person known to him).

You commented on the age range of any acquaintance - and of An’s son (being likely too young at around 13 - which I agree with), but you also said it would astound you if detectives didn’t “go through that kind of circle. [..] Though possible they did and simply didn’t fingerprint someone who had a good alibi or some such.” What circle do you mean? Are you saying you don’t know whether An’s son was ever fingerprinted? I would find it hard to believe that TMPD didn’t collect fingerprints and DNA from everybody next door (incl An’s son - and husband if he present that night). Can you provide any clarification? Jmo and tia

The son was fingerprinted, yes. What I meant was it wouldn’t shock me if some distant friend of his wasn’t if he had a good alibi.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I wonder if there was a computer in the Irie house, and if it was checked by the TMPD. I'm sure the Miyazawa computer was checked, and any online relationships such as bulletin boards were investigated.

But if the Iries had a computer, and if they used bulletin boards/message forums, it's possible one of them (particularly the son) could have unwittingly said something to someone which helped trigger the tragedy. Any relationship to the Iries might be distant enough that the TMPD wouldn't find it, and the Iries wouldn't be to blame for what happened, but it could still have been someone they "knew".

 

[Incoherent]

And speaking of fingerprints..earlier this week there were several posts about: 1.) the 50 minutes (there may be an unknown / not-discussed reason that could explain the delay in calling police, but jmo, I think it is improbable that Haruko simply fainted), 2.) the problem with the noise discrepancy (nobody next door - apparently close to an open window - hears screaming, as three people are stabbed to death close to that window) and possible TMPD dissatisfaction with some of the information provided by those next door,

SBM: the 50 minute gap does seem a bit long, but Haruko was a grandmother in her (late 60’s?) 70’s at the time I believe. We should think what she saw, a house soaked in blood, Nina’s spinal cord was severed and she was missing teeth, Yasuko’s brain protruding, Mikio’s head having a piece of knife sticking out of it… after seeing all of that and then having to go back home next door and wake others to tell them or explain what she just saw and to even be coherent - I can see why that gap was there, even if she didn’t faint.

Re your second point: I am also dissatisfied about the answers they gave in relation to noise, especially since I have lived in a wooden building in Tokyo before. It’s astounding no one heard anything besides the loft ladder. And then the bathroom window being open too, and it being so close to a window on the other side…

I’m not sure how many of them reported hearing the loft ladder, but I think it was more than one of them. It was at the exact time of the murders and nothing else was heard? Really? Or if there were any more noises it didn’t arouse suspicion or was deemed normal enough - we know there were noise issues between the two sides before the murder. Anything further that was heard wasn’t enough it seems.

 

[Sor Juana]

SBM: the 50 minute gap does seem a bit long, but Haruko was a grandmother in her (late 60’s?) 70’s at the time I believe. We should think what she saw, a house soaked in blood, Nina’s spinal cord was severed and she was missing teeth, Yasuko’s brain protruding, Mikio’s head having a piece of knife sticking out of it… after seeing all of that and then having to go back home next door and wake others to tell them or explain what she just saw and to even be coherent - I can see why that gap was there, even if she didn’t faint.

From what I gather, the phone line wasn't quite alright. Whether it was unplugged or something else, the poor lady couldn't use the phone right away. Perhaps she was too distracted to focus on fixing the line and took some time to gather her thoughts before making the call. I wonder if she ended up calling from Mikio's place or if she had to go back home to make the call.

 

[vls12345]

Could An's family have been the real targets? Do you know how much their acquaintance circle was researched for clues or possible perps who might have been targeting An and family rather than Mikio and family?

Far-fetched idea probably but figured it is perhaps another angle to research. Imo.

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder if there was a computer in the Irie house, and if it was checked by the TMPD. I'm sure the Miyazawa computer was checked, and any online relationships such as bulletin boards were investigated.

But if the Iries had a computer, and if they used bulletin boards/message forums, it's possible one of them (particularly the son) could have unwittingly said something to someone which helped trigger the tragedy. Any relationship to the Iries might be distant enough that the TMPD wouldn't find it, and the Iries wouldn't be to blame for what happened, but it could still have been someone they "knew".

Such situations always remind me of Christine Jessop’s murder in Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5763673

It was solved years after Christine’s abduction, via genetic genealogy and by that time, the perpetrator had killed himself. But he was exactly one step away. His wife was occasionally babysitting for Christine and very likely, mentioned that the mother and older brother would be away but Christine would stay at home. The perpetrator was not in Christine’s immediate circle but he knew her as she used to play with his kids.

So there might be a similar situation here. Indeed, the child might have mentioned something in passing on the forums for example. The other person could easily sleuth the family just by asking several additional questions. Quite possible.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I wonder if there was a computer in the Irie house, and if it was checked by the TMPD. I'm sure the Miyazawa computer was checked, and any online relationships such as bulletin boards were investigated.

I am almost certain that they were investigated.

But if the Iries had a computer, and if they used bulletin boards/message forums, it's possible one of them (particularly the son) could have unwittingly said something to someone which helped trigger the tragedy. Any relationship to the Iries might be distant enough that the TMPD wouldn't find it, and the Iries wouldn't be to blame for what happened, but it could still have been someone they "knew".

This is entirely possible. However, I know LE were looking for grudges, flashpoints, anyone who might have wanted to get at the Miyazawas or the Irie family, however indirectly. It's possible that something as seemingly innocuous as this slipped by the Chief et al. Or maybe something that didn't even occur to the family to bother mentioning.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

SBM: the 50 minute gap does seem a bit long, but Haruko was a grandmother in her (late 60’s?) 70’s at the time I believe. We should think what she saw, a house soaked in blood, Nina’s spinal cord was severed and she was missing teeth, Yasuko’s brain protruding, Mikio’s head having a piece of knife sticking out of it… after seeing all of that and then having to go back home next door and wake others to tell them or explain what she just saw and to even be coherent - I can see why that gap was there, even if she didn’t faint.
Re your second point: I am also dissatisfied about the answers they gave in relation to noise, especially since I have lived in a wooden building in Tokyo before. It’s astounding no one heard anything besides the loft ladder. And then the bathroom window being open too, and it being so close to a window on the other side…

Yes, I can tell you the Chief was and remains dissatisfied with it too. This sound problem has never had an explanation. It someone was awake (I think the son) to hear the ladder being thrown up after the murders, then he would have been able to hear the screams or struggles that preceded it in the seconds and minutes prior.

I’m not sure how many of them reported hearing the loft ladder, but I think it was more than one of them. It was at the exact time of the murders and nothing else was heard? Really? Or if there were any more noises it didn’t arouse suspicion or was deemed normal enough - we know there were noise issues between the two sides before the murder. Anything further that was heard wasn’t enough it seems.

I think it was the son who actually mentioned the ladder. Haruko heard nothing, I can tell you that much. At any rate, the window of the murders is short. Between 10:38pm and around 11pm when the ladder is thrown up.

Interestingly, as I understand it, it was less of a noise issue and more of a privacy issue on the part of Mikio. He paid for soundproofing on both sides. Now, when my sound specialist looked at those walls, he said categorically it would not be possible to retro-fit them in such a way to drown out all noise between the houses. He made it clear that you would hear a quiet cough between the walls, let alone a fight to the death.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

From what I gather, the phone line wasn't quite alright.

The Chief said the phone was untouched, the lines were not cut.

Whether it was unplugged or something else, the poor lady couldn't use the phone right away. Perhaps she was too distracted to focus on fixing the line and took some time to gather her thoughts before making the call. I wonder if she ended up calling from Mikio's place or if she had to go back home to make the call.

Yes, it's very possible that she either fainted or was in such a shock that she simply didn't know how to react. Given her family had just been obliterated, that's entirely understandable. I don't have details on this but I can say that in my conversations with LE, that time gap was never raised or questioned.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Could An's family have been the real targets?

This is possible, yes. But it would require a very distant hitman (and a bad one) who wouldn't see the name MIYAZAWA prominently displayed by the front door, the red French family car outside, the kid's bunk bed immediately before he starts murdering Rei etc. Moreover, if he accidentally killed the Miyazawas (despite his injury which we know is not enough to stop him), he wouldn't have far to go to finish the job.

Do you know how much their acquaintance circle was researched for clues or possible perps who might have been targeting An and family rather than Mikio and family? Far-fetched idea probably but figured it is perhaps another angle to research. Imo.

I would say that the social circle was combed extensively. We can't know for sure but given the scale of the work that's gone into this case, I would be shocked if this hadn't happened given their direct relationship with the Miyazawas and physical proximity. From my conversations with the Chief, he's nobody's fool -- if there was some kind of plot hiding in direct proximity, I think he would've found it. His first feelings were that the killer was close to the family and therefore he would find him. If we turn that around, the logic would follow the killer was not close to them. JMO

 

[Incoherent]

Interestingly, as I understand it, it was less of a noise issue and more of a privacy issue on the part of Mikio. He paid for soundproofing on both sides. Now, when my sound specialist looked at those walls, he said categorically it would not be possible to retro-fit them in such a way to drown out all noise between the houses. He made it clear that you would hear a quiet cough between the walls, let alone a fight to the death.

When I lived in a wooden building in Tokyo many years ago I could hear my neighbour downstairs snoring.

Not downstairs as in the bottom floor of a two story house, but as in the entire separate apartment below me. I could hear them snoring through the walls of an entirely separate place enough that it used to bother me.

It just doesn’t make sense.
Maybe the teen who heard the ladder thunk was just watching TV loud enough to shrug any other noises off.
And post murder, someone stomping about the place dropping drawers and dumping documents in a bathtub.

Such frustrating detail of the entire thing.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Interestingly, as I understand it, it was less of a noise issue and more of a privacy issue on the part of Mikio. He paid for soundproofing on both sides. Now, when my sound specialist looked at those walls, he said categorically it would not be possible to retro-fit them in such a way to drown out all noise between the houses. He made it clear that you would hear a quiet cough between the walls, let alone a fight to the death.

RSBM

Based on the layout of the house, the only rooms which seem to have any direct connection to the Irie house are the garage, bathroom and kids' room. I wonder if the location of the attacks made a difference. The only person who was attacked in one of the rooms with a direct connection to the Irie house was Rei, and he was killed in a totally different, much quieter manner. Every other victim had additional walls and floors in between. It might be important to know exactly which walls (or portions of the walls) were soundproofed; was it only the adjoining walls, or also some of the other internal and external walls?

This is probably a silly question, but I'm not sure how much access is permitted to the Miyazawa and Irie houses.

Was your sound specialist allowed to go inside the houses and conduct sound experiments in various locations? The reason I ask is because sometimes structures can behave in totally unexpected ways. You might look at the wall and think, "No way would that ever stop the noise." But then you test it and somehow it does.

If your sound engineer actually tested the sound in different rooms, that's pretty conclusive. But if he was making an educated guess based on his prior experience with similar structures, I wonder if there's any possibility he's wrong.

 

[Frankie Hellis]

Yes, I can tell you the Chief was and remains dissatisfied with it too. This sound problem has never had an explanation. It someone was awake (I think the son) to hear the ladder being thrown up after the murders, then he would have been able to hear the screams or struggles that preceded it in the seconds and minutes prior.

I think it was the son who actually mentioned the ladder. Haruko heard nothing, I can tell you that much. At any rate, the window of the murders is short. Between 10:38pm and around 11pm when the ladder is thrown up.

Interestingly, as I understand it, it was less of a noise issue and more of a privacy issue on the part of Mikio. He paid for soundproofing on both sides. Now, when my sound specialist looked at those walls, he said categorically it would not be possible to retro-fit them in such a way to drown out all noise between the houses. He made it clear that you would hear a quiet cough between the walls, let alone a fight to the death.

Maybe they were somewhat restrained with screaming to not wake Rei. They may not have known he was already killed. Maybe they were ultimately protecting him from the intruder. Just a thought.

 

[Janitor101]

Here is an excerpt from @FacelessPodcast post #8 in Thread 1, for your convenience (BBM):




I'm cautious about relying on "other sources" right now because bloggers and journalists often use info that's already out there, which could be from anywhere. We're not sure if the phone line was cut or just unplugged inside. Could it have been blocked from outside? If the killer only wanted to browse drives, they might have accidentally clicked a link or a shortcut that didn't give anything but left a log record.

And one question is answered here: it was a Mac, so it likely had a mouse attached to it.

A criminal profiler worked on this case? Can you post a link if it isn't much trouble? I would love to hear their thoughts on this case.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

RSBM

Based on the layout of the house, the only rooms which seem to have any direct connection to the Irie house are the garage, bathroom and kids' room. I wonder if the location of the attacks made a difference. The only person who was attacked in one of the rooms with a direct connection to the Irie house was Rei, and he was killed in a totally different, much quieter manner. Every other victim had additional walls and floors in between. It might be important to know exactly which walls (or portions of the walls) were soundproofed; was it only the adjoining walls, or also some of the other internal and external walls?

3 of the murders happened right outside the bathroom. Which is where the ladder was heard. The central problem remains: the ladder is heard but three people being ripped apart is not. With respect, there is a reason this makes no sense to the first detective querying this, as well as my sound engineer.

This is probably a silly question, but I'm not sure how much access is permitted to the Miyazawa and Irie houses.

No access is permitted. In theory, the house no longer belongs to An Irie either but she still had the keys and nobody had the heart to forbid her entry.

Was your sound specialist allowed to go inside the houses and conduct sound experiments in various locations? The reason I ask is because sometimes structures can behave in totally unexpected ways. You might look at the wall and think, "No way would that ever stop the noise." But then you test it and somehow it does.

If your sound engineer actually tested the sound in different rooms, that's pretty conclusive. But if he was making an educated guess based on his prior experience with similar structures, I wonder if there's any possibility he's wrong.

He is possibly wrong, of course. But he lives in Japan in a similar home and he was looking at the video of the interior as he inspected the exterior. He’s knowledgeable about soundproofing *in Japan.* The Chief and subsequent detectives are possibly wrong. But I don’t see there’s a great deal to substantiate that beyond the possibility that sound can behave in unexpected ways.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

A criminal profiler worked on this case? Can you post a link if it isn't much trouble? I would love to hear their thoughts on this case.

It was part of a 2014 documentary for Asahi TV. I interviewed him at length and his view amounted to this: that the killer was either in the extended family or connected to it. When An Irie got wind of this, she sued them for a mischaracterisation of her views. (I believe it was edited to show her nodding after he makes these points). She won. (Important to note that Japan’s libel laws are extremely stringent and if there is any possibility you’ll be subject to one, it’s better to withdraw).

Having spoken to this agent at length, I have to say that I agreed with his deep doubts that the murders were a robbery gone wrong. However, his view that the killer was in or connected to the family didn’t seem to be based on much. JMO.

Edit to add: he’s seen the case file, been to the house, and spoke to the detectives. So, interesting that the same case file that led LE to conclude it was a robbery gone wrong was the same case file that led this profiler to conclude it was absolutely not.

 

[Janitor101]

Very interesting. Thanks so much for your response.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

3 of the murders happened right outside the bathroom. Which is where the ladder was heard. The central problem remains: the ladder is heard but three people being ripped apart is not. With respect, there is a reason this makes no sense to the first detective querying this, as well as my sound engineer.

RSBM

When I had part of my house soundproofed a few years ago (I think I mentioned it in a previous post) I learned that sound is either airborne or structural. The difference between those two types of sound might help explain what was (and wasn't) heard in this case.

The bang from the loft ladder would be structural noise, whereas any talking or screaming would be airborne noise. Even if the two types of sound originate from the same location (the landing outside the bathroom) it's possible they would travel and be heard very differently. Structural soundproofing would be very difficult to retrofit, but airborne soundproofing should be quite simple--at least in theory.

I wasn't sure how Japanese houses are constructed, so I watched a few YouTube videos of wooden houses being built. If Mikio was able to strip the walls back to the wooden frame, he could have installed soundproofing wool or foam into the wall cavity. If Mikio wasn't able to strip the walls back to the bare wooden frame, he could have applied a layer of soundproofing mat to the walls. In both cases it should be invisible once the wall is refinished.

I'm genuinely surprised that your sound expert thinks the soundproofing wouldn't have even blocked a cough. The physics of soundproofing doesn't change, so even in a Japanese house I'd expect *airborne* soundproofing to be quite effective. If the soundproofing didn't make much difference, would Mikio even have bothered installing it?

 

[Sor Juana]

A criminal profiler worked on this case? Can you post a link if it isn't much trouble? I would love to hear their thoughts on this case.

My guess would be yes, based on the fact that the TMPD invested a great workforce to work on the case, and I believe that criminal profilers would be engaged there. However, I have not seen anything from the original source TMPD available in the public domain. Only mainstream media items with some quotes of general nature. The only professional criminal profiler was Pat Brown, who actually used the info gathered by @FacelessPodcast and someone else offered her view of the profile of the killer. But my understanding is she did not work on the case as an employed profiler with access to everything TMPD has access to, although she wrote a book about it, and it's in Japanese. Here is the link.