JLM: Morgan Harrington/Fairfax Rape Victim - *Forensic Link* to MH #2

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MomnVA said:
I have no update. But the way I read & understood the article -- it's talking about being able to indirectly find & link JM through his father's (or other relative's) DNA if such were in the database.
But in this case, there was a direct swab from JM himself upon his arrest. So they don't need to do the familial route, I gather.
I hope, but am not assuming, that it's all a direct absolute slam-dunk link to everything. One step at a time.
MOO.
Click to expand...

This is one reason I am on the fence. I need to read up more on it.

I was not aware that JM gave a swab upon arrest? That seems unusual after invoking his MIranda right.
 
Hi all.

I've been reading and lurking since I don't even remember how long. Anyway.... something about this just makes me pause. It all seems to fit too easily. If I'm wrong then so be it. IDK.
 
Not sure if this has been posted, but the washington post is quoting unnamed sources as saying the link between the HG case and the MH and 2005 fairfax cases is JLM's DNA

"The allegations against Matthew from the early 2000s are receiving renewed law enforcement scrutiny amid a widening investigation spurred by the Graham case. Liberty and CNU officials said they are cooperating in that investigation, which has expanded beyond Graham to encompass two more unsolved attacks on women, including a violent sexual assault in Fairfax City in 2005 and the case of a young woman who went missing from Charlottesville in 2009 and later was found dead. Two people familiar with the Graham investigation said that the link is Matthew’s DNA."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...d6c-11e4-aa5e-7153e466a02d_story.html?hpid=z4
 
Conductor71 said:
This is one reason I am on the fence. I need to read up more on it.

I was not aware that JM gave a swab upon arrest? That seems unusual after invoking his MIranda right.
Click to expand...

Miranda has nothing to do with a swab. I'm sure they had a warrant to swab him for his DNA. He didn't have a choice.
 
Conductor71 said:
This is one reason I am on the fence. I need to read up more on it.

I was not aware that JM gave a swab upon arrest? That seems unusual after invoking his MIranda right.
Click to expand...

"That arrest on a violent felony charge gave police authority under state law to take a cheek swab without Matthew's consent after he was returned late Friday to Virginia, where he is being held without bond in the Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/virginia-police-forensic-evidence-links-cases-25854710

So once they issued the warrant for Abduction with Intent to Defile, for which they were required to have probable cause, that allowed for the direct swab upon his arrest.
 
Also from the washington post:

"Liberty officials said they cooperated with the Lynchburg police investigation. A heavily redacted police report released to The Post in response to a public information request shows the alleged rape occurred the evening of Oct. 16, 2002, in “field/woods” and was reported in the early hours of Oct. 17. Liberty has said that incident occurred behind the Vines Center, a basketball arena and special-events facility."

Similarities between the liberty assault and the fairfax assault in terms of location.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...d6c-11e4-aa5e-7153e466a02d_story.html?hpid=z4
 
so over it said:
Not sure if this has been posted, but the washington post is quoting unnamed sources as saying the link between the HG case and the MH and 2005 fairfax cases is JLM's DNA

"The allegations against Matthew from the early 2000s are receiving renewed law enforcement scrutiny amid a widening investigation spurred by the Graham case. Liberty and CNU officials said they are cooperating in that investigation, which has expanded beyond Graham to encompass two more unsolved attacks on women, including a violent sexual assault in Fairfax City in 2005 and the case of a young woman who went missing from Charlottesville in 2009 and later was found dead. Two people familiar with the Graham investigation said that the link is Matthew’s DNA."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...d6c-11e4-aa5e-7153e466a02d_story.html?hpid=z4
Click to expand...

Thanks. The last sentence quoted is indeed the first time I've seen something/someone indicating specifically MATTHEW's DNA, versus just "DNA." I hope it's accurate reporting from very knowledgeable and reliable (LE?) sources.
 
http://fox6now.com/2014/10/01/autho...ases-for-ties-to-hannah-graham-disappearance/

I see two places in this article, which is sourced from CNN, where it says that JM has been linked to MH via DNA.

For myself, I don't think I'll be confident about it until I hear it from a more direct, named source.

They also infer that the LE source for this statement was NOT VSP.

ETA: They also make the DNA statement in this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/12/us/virginia-murdered-daughter-familiy/index.html
 
Yes MomnVa, first time I'd seen it as well, which was why I posted as soon as I read that sentence. I hope it is accurate as well. I will say that the Post is usually conservative about what it reports, which suggests to me that they have two LE sources. This also seems to be a pretty thorough new story with new reporting about the two universities he attended. Only time will tell.

JMO, but I figure that LE is waiting to charge him on MH and the 2005 fairfax cases because 1) they want to assemble a full complement of evidence in those cases, 2) he's not going anywhere at the moment due to the HG charge and the denial of bail, 3) the immediate pressure is to find HG, and 4) once they do charge him they start the clock on when the legal proceedings must begin, so they are buying themselves time.
 
jbowman55 said:
http://fox6now.com/2014/10/01/autho...ases-for-ties-to-hannah-graham-disappearance/

I see two places in this article, which is sourced from CNN, where it says that JM has been linked to MH via DNA.

For myself, I don't think I'll be confident about it until I hear it from a more direct, named source.

They also infer that the LE source for this statement was NOT VSP.
Click to expand...

I agree, I want to hear the direct/named source(s).

And I keep making a further distinction in my mind:
1. JM is linked to MH via DNA. versus,
2. JM is linked to MH via MATTHEW's DNA.
I think they are two potentially different statements.
(My hypothetical example of #1 would be the possibility that MH's DNA was found in JM's cab. That's still a DNA link between JM and MH.)

The Fox/CNN articles appear to be a #1 statement.
The WaPo article appears to be a #2, more specific statement, the first such that I've seen.
I hope there's more along the lines of firm #2 info.

Perhaps I'm just flogging deceased equine, but they seem different...
 
frisson said:
Hi all.

I've been reading and lurking since I don't even remember how long. Anyway.... something about this just makes me pause. It all seems to fit too easily. If I'm wrong then so be it. IDK.
Click to expand...

Welcome!!

IMO, it makes very much sense that it would fit perfectly (or at least is starting to look that way). If Fairfax, MH, and HG are all connected through JM, then pieces have been missing, being collected, etc. since 2005. I'd say by 2014 it's about time that some pieces started fitting together. Having DNA is an excellent modern-day tool that really helps to fit things together. And once you have that involved and eye witness accounts some things can just be straightforward (the proverbial Occam's Razor).
 
Important development within the last hour in the "Search" thread, in case you haven't kept up tonight.
 
Heroine said:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/june/help-FBI-catch-morgan-harrington-killer/help-catch-killer-landing-page
Just so everyone in this thread knows that I did find this on the FBI website as well. I'm sorry if this is a repeat from another thread, but some things seem to belong in multiple threads.
Click to expand...

Here is where I am confused, and maybe you can help. I thought it was always known that there was a DNA link between Fairfax and MH. We have known this for years, right? And MH's parents have told us that, right? So in my mind, this was never in question. We saw this sketch in MH's disappearance well before we ever had heard the name Hannah Graham, and we knew the sketch was created by information provided by Fairfax.

Now, we want to tie HG to MH and Fairfax, and we want it to be tied by DNA. LE will only say it's a forensic link between MH and HG, and we don't know what that might mean. Further, they make no mention of Fairfax at all. This is the part that I want clarity on. This is where I want to hear LE say that the link between HG and MH is DNA and it is definitive, and that HG is also connected to Fairfax. Otherwise, we continue to assume (albeit with high confidence), but why don't they just SAY IT?!
 
MomnVA said:
I agree, I want to hear the direct/named source(s).

And I keep making a further distinction in my mind:
1. JM is linked to MH via DNA. versus,
2. JM is linked to MH via MATTHEW's DNA.
I think they are two potentially different statements.
(My hypothetical example of #1 would be the possibility that MH's DNA was found in JM's cab. That's still a DNA link between JM and MH.)

The Fox/CNN articles appear to be a #1 statement.
The WaPo article appears to be a #2, more specific statement, the first such that I've seen.
I hope there's more along the lines of firm #2 info.

Perhaps I'm just flogging deceased equine, but they seem different...
Click to expand...

When investigators announced that the DNA found on Morgan's body matched that of a rape in 2005, it was learned that the two cases are linked by DNA. That was in April, 2010. No one knew whose DNA it was until Hannah vanished. Then, DNA from the last man scene with an incapacitated Hannah (shortly after she was jogging and walking briskly) was matched to the DNA that connected Morgan Harrington and the 2005 Fairfax rape victim.

First, the two victims were linked via an unknown DNA. Then the unknown DNA was linked to Jesse Matthew.
 
klily444 said:
Here is where I am confused, and maybe you can help. I thought it was always known that there was a DNA link between Fairfax and MH. We have known this for years, right? And MH's parents have told us that, right? So in my mind, this was never in question. We saw this sketch in MH's disappearance well before we ever had heard the name Hannah Graham, and we knew the sketch was created by information provided by Fairfax.

Now, we want to tie HG to MH and Fairfax, and we want it to be tied by DNA. LE will only say it's a forensic link between MH and HG, and we don't know what that might mean. Further, they make no mention of Fairfax at all. This is the part that I want clarity on. This is where I want to hear LE say that the link between HG and MH is DNA and it is definitive, and that HG is also connected to Fairfax. Otherwise, we continue to assume (albeit with high confidence), but why don't they just SAY IT?!
Click to expand...
This was always known, but at some point in all of these threads there were people questioning that fact, I'm assuming because LE won't state that they have a forensic link in the fairfax case. I think the reason is because they 1 Are looking for HG and 2 they don't want to mess up this investigation by putting too much info out there, but I feel they have put enough out there to connect the dots if you will. If there was only one perp in the fairfax case as the victim stated and we know that that DNA is linked to the MH case by DNA and we know that JM is forensically linked to the MH case, then one can only assume that JM acted alone as he did in the fairfax case and all DNA would probably come from the same source (semen) since we know the fairfax victim was raped and so was MH. I'm speculating here but it makes sense to me. If they didn't find semen on MH body how did they determine she was raped especially in her stage of decomposition?
 
Heroine said:
This was always known, but at some point in all of these threads there were people questioning that fact, I'm assuming because LE won't state that they have a forensic link in the fairfax case. I think the reason is because they 1 Are looking for HG and 2 they don't want to mess up this investigation by putting too much info out there, but I feel they have put enough out there to connect the dots if you will. If there was only one perp in the fairfax case as the victim stated and we know that that DNA is linked to the MH case by DNA and we know that JM is forensically linked to the MH case, then one can only assume that JM acted alone as he did in the fairfax case and all DNA would probably come from the same source (semen) since we know the fairfax victim was raped and so was MH. I'm speculating here but it makes sense to me. If they didn't find semen on MH body how did they determine she was raped especially in her stage of decomposition?
Click to expand...

A lot of the info we have on MH has come from her parents, not directly from LE. In her blog, MH's mother says that she was given the autopsy report on her daughter. I believe she also mentions seeing what was left of her daughter.

I don't know how the coroner was able to determine that MH was raped ,and that she was brutally beaten. We don't know if this is a conclusion that MH's mother has made, or it is an official verdict from the coroner. Since the remains were skeletal, I don't know how LE could have gotten semen samples from her body...but MH might have been left with some shreds of clothing or something that had semen on it.

Semen is not the only thing that has DNA on it. Hair, skin, blood do as well. So we don't know what LE was using to get what matches at this point. We do know that a good DNA swab was done so that an optimal sample is now being used from JM to run matches. From what I understand, the forensic analyses were done second hand before, likely from the car, clothing, apartment of JM's to get those preliminary links. Links and direct matches are not the same, either.

The other thing is that cause of death for MH has not been released. I read that from the condition of a throat bone, a coroner can establish death by strangulation many times even from skeletal remains, so I am guessing that was the case for MH. The woman raped in Fairfax was injured from a strangulation attempt along with the rape, but survived because the rapist did not finish here off due the someone coming to investigate. And those two cases are linked by DNA, as we know.
 
jamicat said:
A lot of the info we have on MH has come from her parents, not directly from LE. In her blog, MH's mother says that she was given the autopsy report on her daughter. I believe she also mentions seeing what was left of her daughter.

I don't know how the coroner was able to determine that MH was raped ,and that she was brutally beaten. We don't know if this is a conclusion that MH's mother has made, or it is an official verdict from the coroner. Since the remains were skeletal, I don't know how LE could have gotten semen samples from her body...but MH might have been left with some shreds of clothing or something that had semen on it.

Semen is not the only thing that has DNA on it. Hair, skin, blood do as well. So we don't know what LE was using to get what matches at this point. We do know that a good DNA swab was done so that an optimal sample is now being used from JM to run matches. From what I understand, the forensic analyses were done second hand before, likely from the car, clothing, apartment of JM's to get those preliminary links. Links and direct matches are not the same, either.

The other thing is that cause of death for MH has not been released. I read that from the condition of a throat bone, a coroner can establish death by strangulation many times even from skeletal remains, so I am guessing that was the case for MH. The woman raped in Fairfax was injured from a strangulation attempt along with the rape, but survived because the rapist did not finish here off due the someone coming to investigate. And those two cases are linked by DNA, as we know.
Click to expand...

I know semen is not the only thing that contains DNA I'm just speculating based on what I do know and for me it just makes sense. I'm pretty sure her mother would know what her daughter died from and what happened to her based on how her body was found. If you want to know the coroner will tell the parents. At least one would think, but who knows? That would be a pretty big assumption based on what we know on the fairfax case. And the 2 cases sounds very similar just as HG's does. And I too know that links and matches are not the same, but as I posted in another thread, maybe even this one, it was also stated by the FBI that MH and fairfax was forensically linked however it also states on the poster that they are linked by DNA so I think it's fair to assume that they would/could word it the same this time around, but mean the same thing.
 
klily444 said:
Here is where I am confused, and maybe you can help. I thought it was always known that there was a DNA link between Fairfax and MH. We have known this for years, right? And MH's parents have told us that, right? So in my mind, this was never in question. We saw this sketch in MH's disappearance well before we ever had heard the name Hannah Graham, and we knew the sketch was created by information provided by Fairfax.

Now, we want to tie HG to MH and Fairfax, and we want it to be tied by DNA. LE will only say it's a forensic link between MH and HG, and we don't know what that might mean. Further, they make no mention of Fairfax at all. This is the part that I want clarity on. This is where I want to hear LE say that the link between HG and MH is DNA and it is definitive, and that HG is also connected to Fairfax. Otherwise, we continue to assume (albeit with high confidence), but why don't they just SAY IT?!
Click to expand...

It may not yet be definitively be established. LE did not get direct DNA from JM until he was booked. At that time, an official DNA swab was done on him. The sample are being processed, or have been processed, and matches are being tested against a number of cases in the the files, as well as samples found in the AM case by request from RAT's attorney. The link that LE announced was just that; not an official match from clean samples made directly from JM, but from samples that they got from things in his car, on his clothing, from his apartement. That is my guess. There is a chance that the direct sample taken from JM doesn't match, in which case LE is going to have a tough go in linking JM to those cases. From all we've seen here, I think there will be a match.
 
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