JLM: Psych Thread - Professional and Non-Professional Opinions/Theories

[ThinkHard]

Hey Paulap, is there any reason to think JLM's mothers or fathers side would have known, lived near, been family friends of the Harris Teeter butcher who was identified as the Charlottesville rapist?

 

[SolverGameChanger]

+

Not to belabor the nature vs. nuture, genetics vs. environment, there's something I read awhile back that I think could explain a lot of it. It's of course a simplistic overview, but it was “Genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger.” Not necessarily true in all cases but it's my opinion that it's true in a majority of cases.

http://blog.pathway.com/genetics-loads-the-gun-and-environment-pulls-the-trigger-dr-francis-collins/

Can the choices of partners lead to a child that exhibits strong psychopathic behavior. How sensitive to environmental exposure is a child ? and does this depend on the level of psychopathic charactiersitcs inherited.

I wonder if Jesse's mother and father were familiar with odd behvaiors from their family history and thus when choosing eachother where able to compensate or accept certain odd behaviors in eachother and in Jesse. If Jesse had difficulting with social boundaries, control of aggressive behaviors, critical thinking etc I can see how a loving mother would do her best to support their son by giving him the opportunity to excel in other areas such as sports and using that to leverage his opportunities in higher education and to participate functionally in society.


While I am not jumping to the conclusion that autism will lead to psychopathy I wonder if similar genetic distribution of pschopathic traits are in children and if it is possible to be considered a rare form or similar to autism. There is a theory supported by research, as reported in the huffingtonpost, that indicates Autism is increasing in our population due to a tendency of one or both parents to exhibit traits of Autism

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...ism-more-likely-to-have-traits_n_5564187.html

While some parents exhibit traits others inherit susceptibility to autism. If one parent exhibits traits there is a 52% probability that their child will be autistic. If both parents exhibit traits, ther is an 82% change their child will be autistic. One other factor contirbuting to the increase in autism is that couples choose eachother because they have similar dispostions, interests, choose compatible career fields etc, and thus have more opportunity to meet etc.

I would expect that there would be a decrease in pyschopathic behavior because the chances of two people meeting in any structured envrionment besides a nonfuctional one would be rare, While Autistic traits are found in people with highly functional behavior favored by scientific and technology career paths with an opportunity to support a family, the psychopath opportunities would seem most probable to move in the opposit direction.

 

[Paulap]

Hey Paulap, is there any reason to think JLM's mothers or fathers side would have known, lived near, been family friends of the Harris Teeter butcher who was identified as the Charlottesville rapist?

i don't think we're supposed to comment on things like that.

 

[ThinkHard]

i don't think we're supposed to comment on things like that.

I didn't know if it would be ok to ask, because the Harris Teeter guy has been convicted, and JLM has charges....I thought maybe it would be ok to ask if perhaps he might have crossed this guys path or been somehow acquainted with him in his younger days...because they were both "known" and known in a related to crime way.

I appreciate your discretion though in not wanting to say something your not sure is allowed to be said here.

Maybe a mod can let us know.

 

[jamicat]

There are plenty of behaviors that JM has shown over time that I am sure family and close friends knew were problems of JM's. That he could not keep his car legal That his car looked like a dumpster. That he could get too rough and hurt people during horse play. That he ignored the "no" when going for sex. That he came on too strong when trying to pick up women. Some of that would have seeped through to those who knew him. Landlady indicates rent didn't always get paid, in fact, I think he owed when he left. A "wink, wink" on fares for young women when he was a cabby. Oh, I'm sure the problems now, a long with the problems as a kid, as a college student were there for those close to him to know.

But there are a lot of people with those problems. Those who go too far, are careless, impulsive, but they would not kill someone deliberately like JM did. That Fairfax rape is to me a straight out picture of an evil, evil person. No, it's not the situation or the person that gets him to kill; he looks for the situation to kill, rape. That, I don't think those who liked him, were close to him, suspected one bit.

 

[CoolJ]

Hey Paulap, is there any reason to think JLM's mothers or fathers side would have known, lived near, been family friends of the Harris Teeter butcher who was identified as the Charlottesville rapist?

I do not know if there is a connection, but I do believe that the surname "Washington", is connected in some way to one side of JM's family.

 

[ThinkHard]

At the end of my last post above, I want to clarify that I would expect a decrease in the population of pyschopathic individuals due to the lack of opportunity to meet a partner with similar traits and that is able to compensate for subtle behaviors of the individual as well as their ability to support a family.

I also performed a Google search with the key words pychopath and autism and found this list of references of the subject.

https://www.google.com/search?q=psy...g.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=seamonkey-a

There are highly functional psychopaths and for that reason I wonder if their is any relation to the traits of autistic behaviors and their inheritance in indiviual occurrences and how those traits may be inherited to form a person with psychopathic behaviors.

There actually is a link....btw autism in psychopathy....as seen on functional MRI's both show differences in their responses to, and the parts of the brain that process emotions, reactions to people's faces over objects...stuff like that...what it boils down to is empathy. Essentially autistics lack expressive empathy but not internal empathy, or more global empathy....having a strong sense of right and wrong, and a strict moral compass, yet not know how to comfort a crying friend. Psychopaths actually lack both components of empathy...the ability to feel for others, and the ability to act with empathy (but they can fake it). This is very very over simplified....its more complex but in general....yes there are connection btw the two.

FWIW autism runs in my family, three of my cousins children, spanning both sides, have been diagnosed with autism and are in special programs. Both myself and a cousin have been diagnosed on the spectrum...albeit high functioning (actually other then a few very close people to me, I've neve disclosed that) and i see many autistic traits in my parents, grandparents, and other family members as well. Also one of the components of autism is "special interests" and being self learners....so when I want to know about something, I have a ferocious appetite for knowledge, and read everything! So I do have some idea what I'm talking about. There is also evidence of autism in the population throughout time...personally I think it has always been there, and I think its what gives of us some of the quirky, out of the box thinkers who have contributed great things....I think the rise in pervasive autism has more to do with an increase in toxic overload in the environment interacting with a brain that is neurobiological different then the neurotypical. I think the neuro atypical brain is more sensitive to these enviro toxins, and the rise we see in severe, debilitating autism is really what's on the rise...

 

[SolverGameChanger]

There actually is a link....btw autism in psychopathy....as seen on functional MRI's both show differences in their responses to, and the parts of the brain that process emotions, reactions to people's faces over objects...stuff like that...what it boils down to is empathy. Essentially autistics lack expressive empathy but not internal empathy, or more global empathy....having a strong sense of right and wrong, and a strict moral compass, yet not know how to comfort a crying friend. Psychopaths actually lack both components of empathy...the ability to feel for others, and the ability to act with empathy (but they can fake it). This is very very over simplified....its more complex but in general....yes there are connection btw the two.

FWIW autism runs in my family, three of my cousins children, spanning both sides, have been diagnosed with autism and are in special programs. Both myself and a cousin have been diagnosed on the spectrum...albeit high functioning (actually other then a few very close people to me, I've neve disclosed that) and i see many autistic traits in my parents, grandparents, and other family members as well. Also one of the components of autism is "special interests" and being self learners....so when I want to know about something, I have a ferocious appetite for knowledge, and read everything! So I do have some idea what I'm talking about. There is also evidence of autism in the population throughout time...personally I think it has always been there, and I think its what gives of us some of the quirky, out of the box thinkers who have contributed great things....I think the rise in pervasive autism has more to do with an increase in toxic overload in the environment interacting with a brain that is neurobiological different then the neurotypical. I think the neuro atypical brain is more sensitive to these enviro toxins, and the rise we see in severe, debilitating autism is really what's on the rise...

Thanks thinkhard,

I went through my Google search listed originally posted and found an interesting article connecting autism and violent crime in some individuals. The behavior characteristics could easily be associated with JLM.

The article also highlights how forms of Autistic Spectrum Disorder can be misdiagnosed until violent crime is committed.

This would lead to suggest that the commuity or state of Virginia to consider its ranking nationally in violent crime and consider how they may detect these tendencies in childhood and educate the general public and law enforcement or correctional organizations in assessing and addressing AS to improve outcomes and reduce incidence of violent behavior.

Take a look at my original Google search link and learn more about this

 

[jamicat]

(modsnip)

Is there any syndrome associated with people who get too familiar, too fast and invade space and other boundaries? That' s where I'd place JM.

 

[southernmimi]

JM, to me, seems to be the direct antithesis of a person even slightly on the Asperger's spectrum. Is there any syndrome associated with people who get too familiar, too fast and invade space and other boundaries? That' s where I'd place JM.

Agree...someone with autism/Asperger's is more likely to have difficulty forming close relationships,etc. JM seems to be very much he opposite. I don't know if there is an "ism" for this characteristic or not...unless it's narcissism.

 

[MJPeony]

JM, to me, seems to be the direct antithesis of a person even slightly on the Asperger's spectrum. Is there any syndrome associated with people who get too familiar, too fast and invade space and other boundaries? That' s where I'd place JM.

Actually, ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) is a complicated diagnosis, and in fact personal boundary/space issues are common in many. Just one quick link as a reference, although there is a lot of other stuff out there more in depth: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25100326 (also, Asperger's btw is on the highest functioning end of it- it's generally not considered it's own spectrum, although there are certainly differences from person to person)

I have a child "on the spectrum". B/c of my experience with this, I'm very hesitant to connect violent pathology to such a mental issue, as I am with other mental illnesses as well.. Mainly b/c not only historically have mental health issues been misunderstood and those who have them been unfairly abused (and as research has progressed, things have become more understood), but I think mental health issues still have a stigma attached to them. Correlating them- even if generally- to violent crime can be very dangerous and can perpetuate this. IMO.

Hope I'm not taken the wrong way- I'm not at all criticizing you jamicat, or any poster here, but just sharing my opinions on the topic. I definitely understand that there are often recurring psychological issues as violent crime offenders have been studied. And I get how it's interesting to try to find patterns (and there often are). I just value very much the professional opinions on these things as broad generalizations can often occur otherwise, and I personally leave that to them. IMO.

 

[jrporter]

I agree. I think it was just all an act to try to avoid police

I've got to disagree. His court records in Charlottesville and Albemarle County show a slew of misdemeanor charges (prior to charges relating to Hannah Graham) including the assault and grand larceny (of the victim's cell phone) so I find it hard to believe he was trying to avoid the police.

 

[jrporter]

JM, to me, seems to be the direct antithesis of a person even slightly on the Asperger's spectrum. Is there any syndrome associated with people who get too familiar, too fast and invade space and other boundaries? That' s where I'd place JM.

I believe that LJ has a significant learning disability that affected his academic growth as well as his overall social functioning.

One classmate said it was clear to her that Matthew had trouble reading and that he required special attention from teachers in high school. She said he attended classes for students with learning disabilities.

Another friend, Karen Shipley, has known Matthew since elementary school when both were in a program for kids with learning disabilities .

Here are some characteristics of possible social issues related to LD. However, I also feel that (modsnip)

The research indicates that individuals with learning disabilities

http://www.ldonline.org/article/6169/:

are more likely to choose socially unacceptable behaviors in social situations

are less able to solve social problems

are less likely to predict consequences for their social behavior

are less likely to adjust to the characteristics of their listeners in discussions or conversations

are less able to accomplish complex social interactions successfully (i.e.. persuasion, negotiation, resisting peer pressure, giving/accepting criticism, etc.)

are more likely to be rejected or isolated by their classmates and peers

are more often the objects of negative and non-supportive statements, criticisms, warnings and negative nonverbal reactions from teachers

are less adaptable to new social situations

are more likely to be judged negatively by adults after informal observation

receive less affection from parents and siblings

have less tolerance for frustration and failure

use oral language that is less mature, meaningful or concise

have difficulty interpreting or inferring the language of others

 

[va blue]

What you described is very similar to attachment issues. They do not understand personal space and boundaries. They try to attach to anyone and rejection is devastating.

 

[Emaa]

perhaps a friend who was smarter than him told him to go to the police station and ask for a lawyer and then leave...

that wouldn't mean he was really smart

IMO he walked in to the station and indicated he would talk with a lawyer present. He had family member(s) with him at the time, IIRC, so I'm guessing they are the ones who encouraged him to do this because I don't believe he would have on his own.

 

[Emaa]

The following eye witness description of JLM shows that he does have the ability to show compassion and remorse. This would seem to rule out psychopath or sociopath by superficial definition. http://wtvr.com/2014/09/30/jesse-matthew-temper/

respectfully snipped (good post btw)

My first thought when I read / heard the description of that encounter is that JLM's actions reminded me of an abusive spouse/partner.

 

[Concerned Mama]

While reading a 2007 article about a serial rapist who had a ten-year reign of terror in Charlottesville, I found a brief, but interesting description by a clinical psychologist named Jeffrey Fracher on serial rape by strangers:

"They tend to be compulsive, very fixated on sexual fantasy, dominating, controlling, and hurting," says Fracher. "Most typically we see an escalating amount of the violence they need until they tend to get caught."

Fracher says that of the couple of hundred rapists he sees a year, only two or three are serial rapists turned on by power and domination. "The good news is, they're really rare," says Fracher. "The bad news is, they're dangerous."

Stressing that he is not speaking about Washington, Fracher says that in general, serial rapists start having fantasies around adolescence. They could have a history of being abused either physically, sexually, or emotionally, and may have come from a "violent family parenting style." Cruelty to animals could be another indicator.

. . . .

"In the worst form, you've got a Ted Bundy," says Fracher about those who become serial killers because of "lust-murder"– a need for violence that turns into a need to kill.

"Most of these guys have enough conscience and control," notes Fracher, "that they don't get to that point."

http://www.readthehook.com/86241/news-sealed-order-dna-confirms-part-serial-rape-case

eta: This rapist, now serving four life sentences, also showed remorse after raping one of his victims, placing her in the bathtub and apologizing for having to get so violent with her as he attempted to bathe her. *shudders*

 

[ThinkHard]

Thanks thinkhard,

I went through my Google search listed originally posted and found an interesting article connecting autism and violent crime in some individuals. The behavior characteristics could easily be associated with JLM.

The article also highlights how forms of Autistic Spectrum Disorder can be misdiagnosed until violent crime is committed.

This would lead to suggest that the commuity or state of Virginia to consider its ranking nationally in violent crime and consider how they may detect these tendencies in childhood and educate the general public and law enforcement or correctional organizations in assessing and addressing AS to improve outcomes and reduce incidence of violent behavior.

Take a look at my original Google search link and learn more about this

Ok I want to be very very clear about this....autism is NOT the same thing as pathological disorders! They are both neurological and effect similar parts of the brain....but the character they create in people are VASTLY different!!!!

Someone with autism is HIGHLY unlikely to commit a violent crime!!! They are very unlikely to become psychopaths!!! They share a connection in terms of what parts of the brain are effected BUT how they are affected differs btw autism and a psychopath.

I could go in and I and I and explain this! But they are the same in some ways....but very very different issues!

Also someone on the spectrum isn't just neccasarily aloof or distant, what it means is they might talk too much! Go on and on about the same topic, not pick up when everyone else is bored. It means they don't always read social hints. We latch on to truth in conversation over how what we are saying might offend someone...But what autistics tend to have stronger then even neurotypicals is an incredibly strong sense of social justice, we tend to hate things that are not fair!



Also as temple grandin says..."if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism"

 

[jamicat]

Actually, ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) is a complicated diagnosis, and in fact personal boundary/space issues are common in many. Just one quick link as a reference, although there is a lot of other stuff out there more in depth: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25100326 (also, Asperger's btw is on the highest functioning end of it- it's generally not considered it's own spectrum, although there are certainly differences from person to person)

I have a child "on the spectrum". B/c of my experience with this, I'm very hesitant to connect violent pathology to such a mental issue, as I am with other mental illnesses as well.. Mainly b/c not only historically have mental health issues been misunderstood and those who have them been unfairly abused (and as research has progressed, things have become more understood), but I think mental health issues still have a stigma attached to them. Correlating them- even if generally- to violent crime can be very dangerous and can perpetuate this. IMO.

Hope I'm not taken the wrong way- I'm not at all criticizing you jamicat, or any poster here, but just sharing my opinions on the topic. I definitely understand that there are often recurring psychological issues as violent crime offenders have been studied. And I get how it's interesting to try to find patterns (and there often are). I just value very much the professional opinions on these things as broad generalizations can often occur otherwise, and I personally leave that to them. IMO.

I've never associated autism or aspergers with violent crime. I don't know off hand of any issue like that definitely so associated. It's not an area familiar to me, however. What I do know about Aspergers and autism, as I said above, doesn't seem to fit JM, in any case. I don't know what psychological condition that would fit him, but I think it's outward traits would be very much the opposite of the autism spectrum.

JM seems to crave attention, adulation, and will act the clown or buffoon to get the laughs, the hugs, the slaps on the back. I don't doubt an instant that those who knew him, would never have considered him to be a mean, hurtful rapist and killer. The only danger they might attribute to him is that he is careless, overbearing, doesn't know his boundaries and his own strength, not someone who is deliberately a predator. They probably think of him as funny, but have to be cautious or he'll accidently hurt you. This is a persona he seems to have had for a very long time. The JM that preys upon young women, attacking them, raping them , killing them is not likely to be a side that others have seen.

He may have gotten away with a lot with that outward persona, as it would be difficult for those who know him to believe he would intentianally harm someone. Go to far because he didn't get the stop signals, overstep his welcome, be to rough, yes. Intentional violence, strangulation, attacking a woman, no, I don't think they could imagine.

I know some "JM" types minus the evil. At least I think and hope so. They are some of the least likely people that I would think would deliberately harm anyone, but sloppy and careless enough that they accidently could. I don't think that outward personality, that most people who know JM have seen is anything necessarily linked with serial violent offenders. There is more to it than just that, I think.

I don't know if we can pick out such evil among those we know. Who would really harm, kill, rape others if the opportunity arose, would even seek such opportunities? I hope I don't know anyone like that.

 

[curiousshay]

This has nothing to do with Autism. In my opinion of course. This is a sociopath. Plan and simple. A predator. Perhaps a frotterist. Sexual deviant. Women hater. Sexual/physical abuse survivor himself.