JLM: When will charges come in the HG and MH cases?

[jbowman55]

http://www.nbc29.com/story/27470933/court-documents-dna-links-matthew-to-harrington-case

< Information in the warrant offers a better idea about how Matthew has been forensically linked to the Harrington case. While investigators had confirmed a forensic link between Jesse Matthew and the Harrington case, the search warrant provides the first confirmation of what that evidence is. The warrant says Harrington's Pantera T-shirt had multiple DNA stains on it. The shirt was recovered after Harrington disappeared in 2009.

The Virginia Department of Forensic Science was able to collect DNA from Harrington's shirt. That DNA matched the DNA collected from the 2005 attempted sexual assault investigation in Fairfax.

Charlottesville police found a "wooden tip from a cigar butt" inside Matthew's wallet. The DNA from that wooden tip is a match to both the Harrington case and the 2005 Fairfax case.

On the search warrant, police list the crime as first- and second-degree murder. However, that doesn't mean Matthew will be charged with those specific counts.

The four-page search warrant also asks for years of Matthew's cell phone records.

A spokesperson for Virginia State Police had no comment..>

....going back to the scenario of the 3 white males seen with MH outside the JP arena.

BBM. That bolded sentence refutes my theory, if it's true, but it is the reporter's interpretation, and not the direct, quoted text from the warrant. I think I prefer to base my opinions on the source document rather than someone else's interpretation of it.

I don't really have any contribution to make about the 3 white males. I thought Morgan was seen on the Copeley Bridge AFTER she was no longer in the company of those young men.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I respect your opinion ILOKAL but that last article that I referenced said the cigar tip matched the MAJORITY interior of the t shirt not finger nail scraping. Do you see how MAJORITY of interior t shirt means more than 50% (at least, probably a lot more)of the surface area of the shirt. Not a stain. The stain is another sample altogether.

When the term "majority interior" is used, doesn't it sound like there was a good bit of DNA? According to the article I posted a few pages back, there was only a very small amount of JM's DNA on the shirt--so small they were cautious about putting a sample of it through a familial search, because they wanted to preserve some for future use. On that subject, I wonder if they ever did do a familial search through data bank?

 

[Film_At11]

Snipped~~
Charlottesville police found a "wooden tip from a cigar butt" inside Matthew's wallet. The DNA from that wooden tip is a match to both the Harrington case and the 2005 Fairfax case.

Is there ANY reason they can't say "The Buccal Swab taken from Matthews matches the perps DNA in both the Harrington case and the Fairfax case"???????

Until then a really good lawyer could argue that JM was unknowingly carrying around a cigar tip that belonged to a serial killer !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The MULTIPLE DNA STAINS concerns me, If those DNA stains are NOT from the same perp. Now we seriously have to consider at least two contributors,possibly more. I don't think JM had an accomplice.
And yet, the police don't seem to be saying a word about any other involvement......... I just don't get it

 

[jbowman55]

Snipped~~
Charlottesville police found a "wooden tip from a cigar butt" inside Matthew's wallet. The DNA from that wooden tip is a match to both the Harrington case and the 2005 Fairfax case.

Is there ANY reason they can't say "The Buccal Swab taken from Matthews matches the perps DNA in both the Harrington case and the Fairfax case"???????

Until then a really good lawyer could argue that JM was unknowingly carrying around a cigar tip that belonged to a serial killer !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The MULTIPLE DNA STAINS concerns me, If those DNA stains are NOT from the same perp. Now we seriously have to consider at least two contributors,possibly more. I don't think JM had an accomplice.
And yet, the police don't seem to be saying a word about any other involvement......... I just don't get it

BBM

Please forgive me for stating the obvious, but "multiple" just means "more than one," right? You have JM's DNA, and you have MH's DNA, both on the t-shirt. More than one. No reason to believe, in what we've seen so far, that anyone else's DNA was present.

If I'm wrong about that, please help me understand.

The statement that I've bolded in your post was a reporter's interpretation, not what the actual warrant stated. I think it's an incorrect interpretation. Imo.

 

[jbowman55]

When the term "majority interior" is used, doesn't it sound like there was a good bit of DNA? According to the article I posted a few pages back, there was only a very small amount of JM's DNA on the shirt--so small they were cautious about putting a sample of it through a familial search, because they wanted to preserve some for future use. On that subject, I wonder if they ever did do a familial search through data bank?

The thing I don't understand about this is:

When you have a DNA sample interpreted, what you get back is a series of letters that represent the values in each of the positions of the chromosomes that make up the DNA. IIRC, Y-DNA is read as mostly a series of "repeats," and the number of repeats of specific series helps establish the uniqueness of the DNA. mtDNA and autosomal DNA are also series of letters that can be interpreted and compared by software that is designed to do just that.

Those strings of letters are data, just like any other data. I have my own autosomal DNA stored in a text document on this computer that I'm typing on right now. That data could be used any number of times as input to software that could compare it to another set of data.

Why, once they had one set of results, would they be worried about using those results for multiple comparisons? Is there some provision of law that says that every comparison has to be made to a freshly prepared set of results? Surely not - the entries in the DNA data repositories are certainly not freshly analyzed every time a comparison is made.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Of course, the facts we're not told we can presume are pretty significant, right? Regarding MH's encounter with the basketball players on the parking lot that night:

"...Harrington requested a ride from them&#8211; to where, Cappuzzo would not reveal...

http://www.readthehook.com/88650/hes-still-here-and-other-revelations-harrington-case
Feb 8th, 2011

 

[dove28]

The thing I don't understand about this is:

When you have a DNA sample interpreted, what you get back is a series of letters that represent the values in each of the positions of the chromosomes that make up the DNA. IIRC, Y-DNA is read as mostly a series of "repeats," and the number of repeats of specific series helps establish the uniqueness of the DNA. mtDNA and autosomal DNA are also series of letters that can be interpreted and compared by software that is designed to do just that.

Those strings of letters are data, just like any other data. I have my own autosomal DNA stored in a text document on this computer that I'm typing on right now. That data could be used any number of times as input to software that could compare it to another set of data.

Why, once they had one set of results, would they be worried about using those results for multiple comparisons? Is there some provision of law that says that every comparison has to be made to a freshly prepared set of results? Surely not - the entries in the DNA data repositories are certainly not freshly analyzed every time a comparison is made.

I'm guessing they were concerned that the quantity of DNA they had would not be sufficient for sequencing, so they were hoping to hold off until absolutely necessary (as science has advanced less and less DNA has been needed to do sequencing). Additionally, in DNA matching, they don't actually do full genome sequencing, but rather just sequence the regions that are generally unique among individuals. They may have been holding off in order to determine precisely what regions they wanted to sequence.

 

[jbowman55]

Of course, the facts we're not told we can presume are pretty significant, right? Regarding MH's encounter with the basketball players on the parking lot that night:

"...Harrington requested a ride from them&#8211; to where, Cappuzzo would not reveal...

http://www.readthehook.com/88650/hes-still-here-and-other-revelations-harrington-case
Feb 8th, 2011

Yes, under normal circumstances, I think we can presume exactly that. There's no reason for LE to withhold facts that are innocuous. But the DNA info we've been discussing wasn't released to the public under normal circumstances. It was leaked, and so the leaked content was outside the control of LE. Imo.

I certainly won't campaign against the suggestion that something else may have happened to Morgan, in addition to her eventual encounter with JM. I just don't see any physical evidence of it - yet. :thinking:

 

[ILOKAL]

Alright, one more time. I'll really try to be clear.

1. We do not know that the "diffuse stain" from the t-shirt was blood. The DNA statement does not specify.

2. We do know that the testing of the "diffuse stain" yielded a DNA mixture, the DNA of more than one individual. Imo, this mixture would have consisted of JM's DNA in whatever body fluid the"diffuse stain" was (blood, semen, or urine, most likely, but it does not say which), plus MH's DNA from the shirt itself, which would have been left there just by her wearing the shirt. Her DNA would have been on both the inside and the outside of the shirt, most likely in the form of skin cells and possibly tiny bits of hair.

3. We do know that the DNA from the "diffuse stain" matched the DNA of the Fairfax perp.

ETA: 3a. Since we know that JM's DNA matches the Fairfax perp, we can make the deduction that the DNA from the "diffuse stain" belongs to JM.

4. We do not know whose blood was on the shirt, because the excerpt from the warrant does not say.

5. We do know that MH's DNA would have been on the inside of the shirt because she was wearing the shirt.

ETA: 5a. We can infer that JM's DNA may have leaked through to the inside of the shirt in the area where the "diffuse stain" was located, but it is unlikely that this "diffuse stain" covered an area that could be described as "the majority of the inside of the t-shirt."

6. We can safely make the assumption, based on his physical size, that JM was NOT wearing the shirt.

7. We do know that the DNA from the majority of the inside of the shirt matched the DNA from the cigar butt tip.

8. Nowhere in those statements does it say that the DNA from the "diffuse stain" matches the cigar butt tip.

9. The 1 in 7.2 billion probability could apply to either MH or JM, as both their DNA profiles are known, and any person's DNA is unique for all practical purposes, unless that person has an identical twin. The fact that this statistic is referenced does not imply that the statistic is about JM.

Does this help?

http://www.c-ville.com/leaked-search-warrant-reveals-dna-link-harrington-case/

In reference to 2. Above - urine doesn't yield DNA except in rare circumstances that I doubt apply to JLM.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Yes, under normal circumstances, I think we can presume exactly that. There's no reason for LE to withhold facts that are innocuous. But the DNA info we've been discussing wasn't released to the public under normal circumstances. It was leaked, and so the leaked content was outside the control of LE. Imo.

I certainly won't campaign against the suggestion that something else may have happened to Morgan, in addition to her eventual encounter with JM. I just don't see any physical evidence of it - yet. :thinking:

Yes, but still, it would be interesting to know where she wanted to go. Reports said she had told her friends that she'd find a way home...but it sounds like she was wanting to go somewhere more local in the meantime. She could very well have gotten a ride from JM--and he may have taken her either to her desired destination, or to her ultimate destination.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Can we go back to this article for a sec, it's bothering me.

I wonder if the UVA Mens Basketball Team would be willing to put their DNA out there, especially if they are innocent. Is this why there was mixed DNA? What are your thoughts about the article below?

http://www.readthehook.com/69512/mis...rgan-sightings

< With the blonde were four young, white men–- a conspicuous group, says the witness, because of the direction they were headed: away from the Arena.
In addition to a black miniskirt, tights, and a black shirt, the young blonde was wearing distinctive high-heeled boots, says the witness, a mother of two who spoke on condition of anonymity over concern for getting "pulled into the fray."
Until now, the missing woman's boots have been described as "knee high," but this witness insists they were "over the knee." (Through a spokesperson with the Harrington's recently hired PR firm, Gil Harrington says the boots she saw Morgan try on prior to the concert were not above the knee.)

The men, says the witness, were allegedly laughing.

According to several sources, members of UVA's men's basketball team were among the last to see Harrington in the grassy, tree-shrouded parking area before she was seen with her thumb out, hitching a ride on the bridge.

Emails sent to numerous team members were forwarded to UVA spokesperson Carol Wood, who directed the inquiry to State Police, but Geller declines comment on the identity of any witnesses.

"We leave it to them whether they want to speak publicly," she says.>

......Now why would they "leave it to the boy's" if they want to speak publicly if there were amongst the last people to see MH?

There were two eyewitnesses that saw Morgan with members of UVA basketball team and the boys were laughing, later an eyewitness has her leaving the lawn at UVA around 3am without her tights. Bare legs, disshelved, alone. I think she was gang raped.

JLM saw the easy prey and picked her up, left the body on AF as a FU to the rich white folks, apparently he has also fished on this property so he knew it. It's also so close to Red Hill Elementary where he attended school.

..the Pantera tshirt was displayed next to Phi Kappa Psi as a trophy and another FU message.

JMO - whew I feel so much better.

Who would UVA want to protect even more than they have protected their fraternities? Basketball team members, most probably....

 

[Jmoose]

BBM

Please forgive me for stating the obvious, but "multiple" just means "more than one," right? You have JM's DNA, and you have MH's DNA, both on the t-shirt. More than one. No reason to believe, in what we've seen so far, that anyone else's DNA was present.

If I'm wrong about that, please help me understand.

The statement that I've bolded in your post was a reporter's interpretation, not what the actual warrant stated. I think it's an incorrect interpretation. Imo.

That was how I read it, too-more than one could equal perp and victim

 

[4 Free Speech]

Who would UVA want to protect even more than they have protected their fraternities? Basketball team members, most probably....

Agreed!

Does anyone know if LE ever followed up on the eyewitness testimony?
Did the basketball players ever speak publicly?
Why weren't they questioned by LE?

http://www.readthehook.com/69512/missing-pieces-witnesses-share-their-tales-morgan-sightings


<Among the several witnesses who reported seeing Morgan injured both inside and outside the Arena, one Metallica fan inside says she seemed "upset" with blood on her chin but declined his offer to help.
Outside the Arena, another concertgoer says, he was on the southeast side of the building waiting for late-arriving friends to meet him around 9pm when he heard a "commotion" at an entrance.
"It was some shouting," says the 44-year-old man who'd traveled from Fredericksburg to Charlottesville and who asked not to be identified because of the high profile nature of the case. Moments after the shouting stopped, he says that a young woman with long blond hair and dressed all in black&#8211;- including, he says, a black Pantera t-shirt like the one Morgan was reportedly wearing&#8211;- approached him, put her arm out, bent, as though to walk arm in arm with him, and said, "Let's go."
"It seemed somewhat aggressive," he says.
Waiting for his friends and concerned that her behavior seemed "unusual," he says, he declined and turned to walk away. The young woman responded, he says, by cursing at him and kicking him.
"It wasn't that hard," he says of the kick, but it was disturbing enough that he immediately called his girlfriend to relate the encounter.>

 

[4 Free Speech]

http://www.wafb.com/story/11566566/uva-basketball-players-questioned-about-harrington

Updated: Nov 24, 2009 11:35 AM PST

CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA (WWBT) - University of Virginia said today members of the university's men's basketball team were questioned in the disappearance of missing Virginia Tech student Morgan Harrington.

(modsnip)

http://www.wsls.com/story/20836128/uva-basketball-players-interviewed-in-morgan-harrington-case

The University of Virginia has released new information regarding rumors that several players on its men's basketball team were questioned in relation to the search for missing Virginia Tech student Morgan Harrington.

According to a statement from UVA, on October 17th a woman approached some members of the men's basketball team following a practice. The woman's description was "consistent with Ms. Harrington's description," according to the statement from UVA.

The team's practice facility is located very close to John Paul Jones arena, where the Metallica concert was being held.

(modsnip)

 

[4 Free Speech]

This is worth a second reading...

http://www.readthehook.com/109328/security-failure-morgan-harringtons-family-refiles-complaint

On the same night it barred an injured and disoriented Morgan Harrington from reentering UVA's John Paul Jones Arena during a Metallica concert in October 2009, the firm providing concert security helped an intoxicated off-duty Fairfax police officer attending the show to find a safe ride, according to an amended complaint against Richmond-based RMC Events, filed in Charlottesville Circuit Court by Morgan's mother, Gil Harrington.

The amended complaint, filed Tuesday, March 26, asks for $3.9 million in damages– up from the original $3.5 million– and offers greater detail than the original complaint filed by Harrington in Roanoke County Circuit Court in October 2011. Among the allegations added: that Morgan, a 20-year-old Virginia Tech student, had suffered a two- to three-inch gash on her chin (that was bleeding "substantially") and a serious head injury, and that RMC staffers ignored her distress and prevented her from rejoining her friends, even though on other occasions, RMC had allowed concert attendees to break the no-reentry policy to retrieve their wallets from their cars.

(modsnip)

 

[Conductor71]

Yes, but still, it would be interesting to know where she wanted to go. Reports said she had told her friends that she'd find a way home...but it sounds like she was wanting to go somewhere more local in the meantime. She could very well have gotten a ride from JM--and he may have taken her either to her desired destination, or to her ultimate destination.

She asked some of the basketball players for a ride...and they declined. This would makes me think that she likely wanted a ride to UVA. What is the other "event" they were attending that night?



That's where the two groups of male students converged, and although Harrington requested a ride from them– to where, Cappuzzo would not reveal– the students declined. Cappuzzo says the 14 men who saw her there have all been interviewed multiple times and their alibis have been thoroughly checked. "They had another event to attend that night," says Cappuzzo.

 

[Conductor71]

Something just struck me as funny. We have spent so much time analyzing diffuse stains and what comprises majority in a shirt, we didn't even notice this...

MH was found clothed or with the remainder of some of her clothes! All media initially reporting state that the body of of a blonde woman was found clothed. We know that the Pantera shirt was not there having been "found" only one month after she disappeared.

This raises all kinds of questions for me, but the first thing is why hasn't LE taken DNA profiles from the clothing at the scene and checked it for matches to the Fairfax FS and JM's cigar tip? That too should match, shouldn't it? Placing someone directly at the scene is far more incriminating and it makes me wonder why they are so preoccupied with the Pantera shirt? I am feeling even more uneasy with all this DNA stuff.

Curiouser and curiouser....

sources:

http://www.readthehook.com/68929/search-ends-devastated-parents-grieve-hunt-killer-intensifies

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RFxKfyFUc8

 

[observation]

Hello, Conductor71- I totally understand your thoughts relating to the DNA and the main focus on the T-shirt, however only 2/4 pages were leaked. There is no other information that we know of but that doesn't necessarily mean there is no other evidence, IMO.

 

[ILOKAL]

Something just struck me as funny. We have spent so much time analyzing diffuse stains and what comprises majority in a shirt, we didn't even notice this...

MH was found clothed or with the remainder of some of her clothes! All media initially reporting state that the body of of a blonde woman was found clothed. We know that the Pantera shirt was not there having been "found" only one month after she disappeared.

This raises all kinds of questions for me, but the first thing is why hasn't LE taken DNA profiles from the clothing at the scene and checked it for matches to the Fairfax FS and JM's cigar tip? That too should match, shouldn't it? Placing someone directly at the scene is far more incriminating and it makes me wonder why they are so preoccupied with the Pantera shirt? I am feeling even more uneasy with all this DNA stuff.

Curiouser and curiouser....

sources:

http://www.readthehook.com/68929/search-ends-devastated-parents-grieve-hunt-killer-intensifies

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RFxKfyFUc8

If the DNA on the cigar tip belongs to MH, as MANY have suggested , there would be no reason to test it against her clothing . . . LE knows it's her clothing.

Now if the DNA on the cigar tip belongs to JLM, which I believe it clearly does, it probably HAS been tested against some of the other clothing, if DNA could be extracted from it. The finding of the Pantera shirt was much closer in time to MH's death with less chance of DNA degradation AND there was blood on it. There may not have been blood or semen on her other clothing.

 

[Conductor71]

If the DNA on the cigar tip belongs to MH, as MANY have suggested , there would be no reason to test it against her clothing . . . LE knows it's her clothing.

Now if the DNA on the cigar tip belongs to JLM, which I believe it clearly does, it probably HAS been tested against some of the other clothing, if DNA could be extracted from it. The finding of the Pantera shirt was much closer in time to MH's death with less chance of DNA degradation AND there was blood on it. There may not have been blood or semen on her other clothing.

Oh, I agree it is most likely JLM's DNA on the cigar tip. True, I see your reasoning that the shirt was found prior to MH's remains as a good explanation. However, I am having a hard time believing that there would have been no DNA transfer to her undergarments and her tights/leggings. Not to mention the perp likely carried her to that remote cow pasture, so there would be skin cell transfer as well.

She was exposed to winter elements for three months, and according to a forensic specialist quoted in the source I read said that her clothes would have still been intact after that amount of time and that synthetic fibers like polyester are virtually indestructible; they "last forever". Just seems unlikely that they could find not enough DNA to extract a profile on clothes that he likely had sustained contact with at the time.

I think that the t-shirt is much weaker evidence and am really surprised that LE would not have checked the cigar tip profile with clothes she was wearing instead now instead. At this this stage they could have easily tested for matches on the clothes found with her or the Pantera shirt. Why choose the weakest one in terms of exposure to multiple DNA sources? Further, the tee shirt has a high cotton content to it, and cotton degrades most rapidly of all fibers. It seems they went with the Pantera for some other reason that they will likely have to explain. LE needs more than that Pantera shirt to prove JLM raped and killed MH, IMO.

However, forensic anthropologist Lee Meadows Jantz of the University of Tennessee's so-called "body farm" says that a body discarded for three months would still have its clothing intact&#8211; even cotton, though it's the first fabric to degrade. Next in line are silk and leather, but polyester, she says "lasts forever."

-from source at C-ville weekly.