Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[pip]

So the bullet entered the sinus cavity through the inside of skull and lodged in his cheek? Or do you think he was pretty much shot right in the sinus cavity?

The fact that it didn't exit the cheek also shows the low velocity nature of it, wouldn't you say?

IMO

From the frontal skull above his eyebrow thru the sinus.. not directly shot in the sinus cavity. It passed thru. Exactly what Dr. Horn said.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Right, this wasn't surprise testimony. Both sides knew he was going to say this. JM was making points about the clean shell casing on blood before Horn even testified.

Right, and Dr. Horn didn't say he never speculated about sequence before. He said no one had ask him that particular question before until asked by the Arias DT and then he answered them. They knew it first before even Juan because it is totally irrelevant to Juan which method was used first nor did it matter to the Judge who ruled that either way it happened it still meets the definition of cruel and heinous.

And Horn had not even seen the two photos before it was shown to him during testimony. 1. The casing lying in already spilled blood which was clean except underneath that rested In blood. 2. The photo of JAs foot with Travis down and bloody.

Both of those photos back up Dr. Horn's opinion.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

Yes. I would imagine he had so much sinus bleeding he was sputtering and coughing with difficulty breathing as well. His airway would have been compromised with that much bleeding. I am sure that bullet passing thru his sinus cavity was very damaging and it is highly vascular, both arterial and venous.

And if he was coughing up that amount of blood he was not attacking her by any stretch of the imagination. jmo

 

[pip]

ME transcript:

Trajectory of bullet - coming in from right hand side heading left - it may have been deflected by the bone - cheek may not have been trajectory originally

Scalp wounds do bleed. Head wound just above the forehead in a living person would bleed alot. If the wound happened at the time TA was living - we would have seen a lot of blood. Depending on when he was cut and how much blood loss from other wounds.

In abstract sense without all of the blood loss -

Had TA been alive would there been blood in his mouth? Not in the oral cavity lodged in the cheekbone connected by the sinus.

3 specific injury could have led to death. . . stab wound to chest - slit of throat and shot to the head rapidly fatal.

projectile going thru front of brain - lose consciousness and then go down

Slashing of the throat - it is most severe injury - most bleedng from jugular

Most fatal - chest? middle - significant injury it would cause death without med attn but not loss conscious immediate

He said, yes..blood nasal and oral d/t to sinus injury. Have you ever had a bloody nose? It drains into your mouth as well.

 

[LambChop]

Right, and Dr. Horn didn't say he never speculated about sequence before. He said no one had ask him that particular question before until asked by the Arias DT and then he answered them. They knew it first before even Juan because it is totally irrelevant to Juan which method was used first nor did it matter to the Judge who ruled that either way it happened it still meets the definition of cruel and heinous.

And Horn had not even seen the two photos before it was shown to him during testimony. 1. The casing lying in already spilled blood which was clean except underneath that rested In blood. 2. The photo of JAs foot with Travis down and bloody.

Both of those photos back up Dr. Horn's opinion.

IMO

Yes, what you just said. lol

 

[pip]

And your point is? Yep. I read it thoroughly. It entered above the right eyebrow on the anterior frontal skull, went down to the left via right anterior fossa, thru his sinus cavity and lodged in the left maxillary bone. Dura intact. No cerebral injuries. The bullet missed his brain. Amazing, huh? Not really.


Yes, it would be amazing, Look at a skull diagram and explain how a bullet can go through the frontal skull right above the eyebrow and exit through the fossa and miss the brain.

Funny you mention that, I have looked at many many and can easily see with the trajectory how the brain was missed.

 

[molly333]

Because the frontal lobe was liquid. You can't determine injuries when there is nothing intact to examine. What he found within the material was unremarkable.....no bullet fragments, etc. His evaluation is based on where the bullet entered the skull, where it left the skull and where it ended up. That determines the path if there were no deflective bones in the way. It appears to be a clear path to the cheek after passing through the frontal lobe. You can see for yourself on the x-rays. If the report is hard to understand he explains it in court. JW wanted the doctor to tell her what she interpreted from his report and she wanted him to say he could have been shot first and been able to attack Jodi because the bullet never entered the brain. Dr. Horn then explained that it was not possible to bypass the frontal lobe. JW just wanted the doctor to confirm that he could have attacked Jodi after she shot him. jmo

The frontal lobes were not liquid....PLEASE.

He made SLIDES of the brain. You know how you make slides of the brain? You have to fix it in a solution and then slice it into thin tissue sections. You cannot do that with a liquid.

The slides showed no trauma to the brain, btw. Did I mention that?

IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

ME transcript:

Trajectory of bullet - coming in from right hand side heading left - it may have been deflected by the bone - cheek may not have been trajectory originally

Scalp wounds do bleed. Head wound just above the forehead in a living person would bleed alot. If the wound happened at the time TA was living - we would have seen a lot of blood. Depending on when he was cut and how much blood loss from other wounds.

In abstract sense without all of the blood loss -

Had TA been alive would there been blood in his mouth? Not in the oral cavity lodged in the cheekbone connected by the sinus.

3 specific injury could have led to death. . . stab wound to chest - slit of throat and shot to the head rapidly fatal.

projectile going thru front of brain - lose consciousness and then go down

Slashing of the throat - it is most severe injury - most bleedng from jugular

Most fatal - chest? middle - significant injury it would cause death without med attn but not loss conscious immediate

Yes, and he never even says himself what is first or last, but that the throat wound and the gunshot had to come after the defensive wounds, and that the chest stab could have come before. Also that the gunshot may have come after death but the chest and neck wounds didn't.

He didn't give an order, 1, 2, 3, so and so happened, but from those findings, it makes the chest stab most likely to come before either the throat wound or the gunshot. By the medical evidence, the gunshot could have come right before the throat wound, but that's not so likely logistically.

 

[ERRN1313]

http://alumni.imsa.edu/~newt/BRAIN.html

MRI of brain inside skull. Note small space between skull and brain. Imagine entrance above R eyebrow, downward trajectory, through sinuses into L cheek. Small caliber, low velocity, slowed down by skull bone itself.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Didn't he also say when JW protested about the bullet entering the brain Dr. Horn replied that the brain in a young person is flush up against the skull in that area.

Yes, he said that.

The meaning of perforated is hole so wouldn't that actually be a magic bullet if it were able to put a hole in the skull and totally miss hitting the brain since the brain is flush with the skull? Plus I think the fact that this portion of his brain was liquefied because of the decomp which points to probable damage when compared to the rest of the brain matter which was soft and he was able to examine.

Don't know but it sounds reasonable to me. jmo

I'm not sure about that. Do you have a video time? I don't think he distinguished about what areas were more decomposed. He did say the brain was too decomposed to be absolutely certain there was no bleeding. That's why the gunfirst theory has a possibility. They should hang there hat on that, it would be more factual than these outlandish conspiracy theories.

 

[ERRN1313]

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/neurobotics/private/124.asp

http://www.msichicago.org/scrapbook/scrapbook_exhibits/bodyworlds/gallery.html

Not out of the medical books but basically how the brain sits inside the skull

 

[molly333]

Funny you mention that, I have looked at many many and can easily see with the trajectory how the brain was missed.

The bullet basically just crashed through the sinus cavity.

He probably felt like he was hit in the face with a baseball bat.

A larger caliber gun would have probably blown his face off.

But, I do not see this wound as terribly serious [as we were previously thinking] as in life threatening, and I can easily see no loss of consciousness. But, his ability to think about things, [like a crazy woman attacking him with a knife], would have been greatly impaired. Although he was thinking clearly enough to get to the sink to examine the wound in the mirror, apparently.

Geez...

IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Yes, I believe the bullet did pass through the brain. However, I believe that the wound was not completely incapacitating. And the ME leaves open that possibility.

Well, he was very firm on the stand that it was debilitating. He said it may not have been fatal, but that he would have been downed by it.

But, from what I've read elsewhere I do think it's a possibility, if slim, that he could have moved after the shot.

 

[The Farm]

The bullet basically just crashed through the sinus cavity.

He probably felt like he was hit in the face with a baseball bat.

A larger caliber gun would have probably blown his face off.

But, I do not see this wound as terribly serious [as we were previously thinking] as in life threatening, and I can easily see no loss of consciousness. But, his ability to think about things, [like a crazy woman attacking him with a knife], would have been greatly impaired. Although he was thinking clearly enough to get to the sink to examine the wound in the mirror, apparently.

Geez...

IMO

Where was it said that he went into the bathroom to examine the wound? I have not heard that before?

 

[LambChop]

The frontal lobes were not liquid....PLEASE.

He made SLIDES of the brain. You know how you make slides of the brain? You have to fix it in a solution and then slice it into thin tissue sections. You cannot do that with a liquid.

The slides showed no trauma to the brain, btw. Did I mention that?

IMO

Yes, I do. The ME puts it in a solution and LET'S IT BAKE so that it appears just like bread when you slice it. And there you are the tract. Dr. Horn said he could not do that because of the decomposition and that this portion was like liquid. He was only able to slice other portions of the brain that were soft. That was my understanding.

Do you mean "did the doctor mention that?" I took it to mean there was no trauma to the portion of the brain he was able to examine since he was unable to examine the portion when the bullet traveled through TA's frontal lobe. So what you are saying as a non-expert is that your belief is there was no hole in the skull at all? Not sure how that would work path wise since there is an entrance wound in the skull and no exit anywhere in the skull???? If the lining and brain material is smack up against the skull as the doctor stated how did the bullet get back out of the skull without touching the brain and going through the lining? Your frontal lobe is right where he was shot. Explain to me how it happened. I'm all ears. jmo

 

[molly333]

Where was it said that he went into the bathroom to examine the wound? I have not heard that before?

We have been deducing that from the blood spatter in the sink and the autopsy report.

He was already in the bathroom. He left the shower after gunshot wound and stood up at the sink is a deduction.

IMO

 

[molly333]

Yes, I do. The ME puts it in a solution and LET'S IT BAKE so that it appears just like bread when you slice it. And there you are the tract. Dr. Horn said he could not do that because of the decomposition and that this portion was like liquid. He was only able to slice other portions of the brain that were soft. That was my understanding.

Do you mean "did the doctor mention that?" I took it to mean there was no trauma to the portion of the brain he was able to examine since he was unable to examine the portion when the bullet traveled through TA's frontal lobe. So what you are saying as a non-expert is that your belief is there was no hole in the skull at all? Not sure how that would work path wise since there is an entrance wound in the skull and no exit anywhere in the skull???? If the lining and brain material is smack up against the skull as the doctor stated how did the bullet get back out of the skull without touching the brain and going through the lining? Your frontal lobe is right where he was shot. Explain to me how it happened. I'm all ears. jmo

The bullet did not touch the brain per the autopsy report.

There was a hole in the skull but it crashed though the sinus cavity, not the brain, and landed in the left cheek.

IMO

 

[The Farm]

We have been deducing that from the blood spatter in the sink and the autopsy report.

He was already in the bathroom. He left the shower after gunshot wound and stood up at the sink is a deduction.

IMO

Thanks, I must have missed that thread. But if the shot came last I thought he was already dragged from the hall back into the shower?
Sorry but impossible to keep up with work and all.
Been pondering all that splatter!

 

[LambChop]

Yes, he said that.



I'm not sure about that. Do you have a video time? I don't think he distinguished about what areas were more decomposed. He did say the brain was too decomposed to be absolutely certain there was no bleeding. That's why the gunfirst theory has a possibility. They should hang there hat on that, it would be more factual than these outlandish conspiracy theories.

From the court translation in the timeline: wound -track of the bullet from fontal bump to facial skeleton of the left maxilary bone of the left cheek. Did autopsy in June 12 2008, found there was no gross evidence of significant intercranial hemmorage. bleeding thru the brain. The brain is really non-existent - it has become liquid -it is very difficult to examine. Didn't you take slices? yes - it is softened but not liquified - it is still there but the state it was in. Autolized brain - liquified brain tissue. Multiple serial sections - as best as I can - running a knife thru the brain to inspect it. Does not reveal presence of grossly apparent trauma - nothing is clearly defined - no metal fragments, no foreign bodies.

People w/injuries to their brains they are not incapcitated - having something going thru brain - it had to have passed thru the brain. skull is perforated where the brain is it had to have passed thru brain. passed thru right frontal lobe - it had to pass thru the brain a hole into the skull and exit from skull cavity into the face. There is no way it could have avoided the brain. You are sure of that? YEs!

I will see if I can find the video and attach it.

Jodi Arias Trial Day 3 (Full) - YouTube

Direct starts at 1:41 about the gunshot, 2:12 is the cross with JW.

 

[pip]

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/neurobotics/private/124.asp

http://www.msichicago.org/scrapbook/scrapbook_exhibits/bodyworlds/gallery.html

Not out of the medical books but basically how the brain sits inside the skull

Do you agree that with the entry point and trajectory that it likely caused damage to his right eye? Possibly even disturbed the optic nerves and caused visual disturbances to both L and R eyes?
If so, only adding to the fact that he couldn't fight her off after the GSW.
Only speculating, but I think the odds are pretty high.