Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Captain86]

Thank you for that information. That is very interesting. Funny the ME doesn't seem to know that one can function with a small caliber bullet wound to the head.

I thought the same thing about Det Flores. It is unlikely he misheard Dr. Horn. But he ended up taking the hit for it like a good trooper. The State's first position was gunshot first.

There were only two stab wounds that were fatal. The rest were superficial wounds. I find it interesting what you say about the upward thrust wound--about how that would not be a wound of choice for a woman. I wonder, did someone tell her to do it that way? Sometimes I wonder if she had a male accomplice. That was one of the two fatal wounds and was very deep. Some of the wounds, like those on the back, were just slices, not stab wounds. But, the two fatal wounds were different.

When she 'gripped the knife' on the stand, she held it in a downward direction I think.

I'm thinking that JM just might return to gunshot first for his closing argument. I would hope he wouldn't want to hang up the Jury with this debate. It would really turn her testimony on its head if he agreed with her--yes, gunshot first, but you brought the gun.

If you have any other insights to share, I hope you will.


IMO

You tend to twist what is said and either overlook or ignore simpler explanations. He said that the path of the bullet would have passed through the brain, but he could not see the track of the bullet due to the decomposition of the brain. That is not saying that it might have missed the brain, it is stating that the wound tract through the brain collapsed on itself, so he could not identify the path through the brain. He also did not say that someone with a head wound is not functional, he said that the gunshot that Travis received would have passed through his brain and rendered him incapable of fighting like is evidenced by his defensive wounds.

Also the woundlds to the back are described as being stab wounds, about and inch deep that all impact bone, not slashes and cuts. The one abdominal wound near the Umbilicus, I believe, was described as a cut. Everything else was a stab, witht he exception of the wounds to the hands.

As for the stab wounds, the slightly upward projection of the wound is completely reasonable. She is several inches shorter than him, so any thrust
4020
type attack toward his heart is going to be upward. The overhand attack that you are talking about (the Psycho-style attack) is the most obvious knife attack. It is also, from my experience, the easiest to defend. You can attack your attacker with less exposure to the knife. You can get to their forearm without having to expose your hands to the blade. The short straight thrust from the waist means you have to get to one side or the other of the blade, so you don't get stabbed, and you risk getting your hands cut as you attempt grab the wrist/arm of the attacker. The straight thrust is also a more surprising attack as it can be hidden until the attacker actually committs to the attack. The overhead attack means you have to start the attack from distance because if you are too close you won't be able to get the knife into position or from a reasonable distance where you can get the knife into position, you telegraph the attack and give the victim time and options that they would not have with the thrust. Unless you attack from the back, which the 9 stab wounds to the back are more consistent with the overhand motion that you describe. All of the wounds to the front are more consistent with the short stright thrust type attacks.

Also if you don't believe that she cut her hand at work, the cuts she took pictures of on her fingers had to come from somewhere. If she attacked with the overhead style that you suggest, where would the cuts on her hand be when her hand slipped down the knife when she impacted bone?

The way she picked up the knife in court has nothing to do with what happened in that bathroom. It also does not match with most of the evidence left in the victim.

 

[Captain86]

This is a really good point and not only is another reason why her story makes no sense but it also proves the gun jammed.

Because, like you said, she shoots him and they both go down. Now they are on the floor together and he makes his famous 'Kill you' statement, so what does Jodi do? Does she stand up and look for the gun, that has flown out of her hand, to protect herself?

No. She leaves the gun in the same room with Travis on the floor and goes to look for a knife!

She has just told us with her own words that the gun was no longer a threat because it wasn't working!

Man, I hope the Jury sees this.

Even Juan didn't get this.

IMO

It does not prove that the gun jammed. You are jumping to a conclusion that you want, because it supports your theory. All this tells us is that her story is not true.

Either way, your's or her's, why did he go to the sink? If he is functioning well enough to fight back after he is shot, then why did he turn his back on her and go to the sink? If she left the room to get the knife, why did he take the time to go to the sink, when he had an opportunity to leave when she went for the knife?

 

[LambChop]

You tend to twist what is said and either overlook or ignore simpler explanations. He said that the path of the bullet would have passed through the brain, but he could not see the track of the bullet due to the decomposition of the brain. That is not saying that it might have missed the brain, it is stating that the wound tract through the brain collapsed on itself, so he could not identify the path through the brain. He also did not say that someone with a head wound is not functional, he said that the gunshot that Travis received would have passed through his brain and rendered him incapable of fighting like is evidenced by his defensive wounds.

Also the woundlds to the back are described as being stab wounds, about and inch deep that all impact bone, not slashes and cuts. The one abdominal wound near the Umbilicus, I believe, was described as a cut. Everything else was a stab, witht he exception of the wounds to the hands.

As for the stab wounds, the slightly upward projection of the wound is completely reasonable. She is several inches shorter than him, so any thrust
4020
type attack toward his heart is going to be upward. The overhand attack that you are talking about (the Psycho-style attack) is the most obvious knife attack. It is also, from my experience, the easiest to defend. You can attack your attacker with less exposure to the knife. You can get to their forearm without having to expose your hands to the blade. The short straight thrust from the waist means you have to get to one side or the other of the blade, so you don't get stabbed, and you risk getting your hands cut as you attempt grab the wrist/arm of the attacker. The straight thrust is also a more surprising attack as it can be hidden until the attacker actually committs to the attack. The overhead attack means you have to start the attack from distance because if you are too close you won't be able to get the knife into position or from a reasonable distance where you can get the knife into position, you telegraph the attack and give the victim time and options that they would not have with the thrust. Unless you attack from the back, which the 9 stab wounds to the back are more consistent with the overhand motion that you describe. All of the wounds to the front are more consistent with the short stright thrust type attacks.

Also if you don't believe that she cut her hand at work, the cuts she took pictures of on her fingers had to come from somewhere. If she attacked with the overhead style that you suggest, where would the cuts on her hand be when her hand slipped down the knife when she impacted bone?

The way she picked up the knife in court has nothing to do with what happened in that bathroom. It also does not match with most of the evidence left in the victim.

Thank you. Very informative post. I always thought, too, that maybe she shot him last because she was just too tired to keep stabbing him. After she cut his throat and was dragging him back to the bathroom she grabbed the gun and then shot him to make sure he was dead. I do think she had the gun first and lost it when he grabbed her coming out of the shower and then she grabbed the knife. Travis had been faced with a gun at his head before and I can't imagine him not finding out the proper way to protect himself if he were ever in that situation again. It could be why he purchased the punching bag, too. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I don't think so. That little shell casing could have easily been moved around on the floor during the struggle.

You are misreading the post. I am asking about the blood not the shell.

 

[scorpio24]

Did anyone watch the HLN reenactment last night? I have not heard how it came out.

It was tabloid journalism sprung to life! I won't be watching that show again any time soon. :twocents:

 

[RealityMan]

He would have had no doubt that she just shot him, by your theory. He would have seen her pointing the gun at him and would seen/heard the gunshot and felt the pain of being shot. Most likely, his instinct would have been to leave once she exited the bathroom. Why stop by the mirror and check the damage? Wouldn't getting away fromt he danger and getting help be more important? If he was too disoriented from being shot that he could not stand without aid of the sink, then how did he fight back when she was stabbing him? how did he manage to make it down the hallway?

By my theory, TA did not see the gun until possibly after he was shot. Sometime in the 44 seconds after the last shower photo and before the bathroom ceiling photo, I think JA distracted TA by acting like she was going to show him the photo she had just taken. Or she asked TA to close his eyes. She pulled the gun from her left pocket with her left hand and fired at TA's head from just outside the shower door. So I think TA was distracted and never even saw JA pull out the gun.

I don't think TA would've gone over to the sink area if JA was still in the bathroom. I think he would've tried to escape down the hallway or through the closet. I'm not sure he fought back much at all. He did sustain some apparently defensive wounds on his hands, but not many. His hands might've just been in the way as JA hacked and slashed at him for at least 62 seconds. He was just a sitting duck after the initial blow.

 

[sacrablue]

Thank you. Very informative post. I always thought, too, that maybe she shot him last because she was just too tired to keep stabbing him. After she cut his throat and was dragging him back to the bathroom she grabbed the gun and then shot him to make sure he was dead. I do think she had the gun first and lost it when he grabbed her coming out of the shower and then she grabbed the knife. Travis had been faced with a gun at his head before and I can't imagine him not finding out the proper way to protect himself if he were ever in that situation again. It could be why he purchased the punching bag, too. jmo

If he was shot last, I believe the point of entry might have been more accurate. The only mortal wound was the throat cut.

 

[pip]

I think I remember the ME saying that the congealed blood the shell was lying on was from a chest wound or he was asked that question. Would that blood clot faster than say blood coming from your facial area?

The ME didn't say that, and he would not be able determine what wound that specific pool of blood came from. The blood sat there for 5 days, all the blood at the scene had dried. Also, the blood would have the same clotting factors no matter what wound it came from.

 

[Applejack]

That Baez is a clever guy. He said JA when being chased from BR went to closet option because she didn't want to be pushed down stairs...good thinking.The closet shelving was a none factor, the biggest trip not even reckoned with..

He's not clever. He's getting paid to come up with absurd ideas that even Jodi hasn't come up with herself. She doesn't say she ran to the closet for that reason, so what the heck?

 

[pip]

"We believe that Travis had been shot first. And, that shot was in the face."

---Esteban Flores, Lead Detective, 48 Hours, "In Her own Words"

Yes, "WE".
And that shot was in the face.

He was telling it like it was told to him.

 

[RealityMan]

It does not prove that the gun jammed. You are jumping to a conclusion that you want, because it supports your theory. All this tells us is that her story is not true.

Either way, your's or her's, why did he go to the sink? If he is functioning well enough to fight back after he is shot, then why did he turn his back on her and go to the sink? If she left the room to get the knife, why did he take the time to go to the sink, when he had an opportunity to leave when she went for the knife?

It's very hard to understand why TA went to the sink regardless of which weapon JA used first, but I think his path from the shower to the sink makes more sense if JA was not in the bathroom, standing between TA and the sink and stabbing at him continuously from the moment she struck the initial blow while he was sitting in the shower.

 

[wilsodh]

In the neck bleeding photo I think she is rolling him over onto the duvet cover, if you look at the line on the right and follow it, you can make out at least one button to the left (I think the enchancement makes them hard to see but one is right under the 'foot' pool of blood coming from his neck as he rolls), and look at the angle from head to arm to shoulder, she's rolling him over, I think.

I marked on the carpet stain where I think his injuries were at that point from the blood pattern:

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/g...rt=3&o=0&_suid=136370070545305494978713444846

I think she pulled his arms to the left to get his head going down the hallway first and drug him a little while (dragging injuries on his heels) and then got the duvet cover to pull him the rest of the way and help to get him in the shower. He could have gotten those heel injuries while she was pulling him over the metal shower stall edge but I think she pulled him down the hallway at least far enough that he was oriented in the head first direction and off the carpet completely.

Thanks! However, the time bothers me a bit. I really like the video which shows the photos in real time:

[video=youtube;pEEW7S16o0c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEEW7S16o0c[/video]

Basically the death scene goes like:

Photo#/time stamp (YouTube video time)

1) 5:29:20 - Travis looking at the camera (video time 6:13)
2) 5:30:30 - Travis lower half seated (video time 6:24)
3) 5:31:14 - Bathroom ceiling (video time 7:09)
4) 5:32:16 - Travis with neck slashed (video time 8:14)
5) 5:33:32 - Travis being dragged (video time 9:29)

Watching the photos in real time helps convey how much time Jodi had to conduct the mayhem. What fits for me is:

Jodi shoots Travis at, or immediately after, photo #2.

Then there is a significant pause prior to photo #3 (~45 sec) This would be the time that both Jodi and Travis realize the gun is jammed. Jodi leaves the bathroom to get the knife. Travis, stunned by the gunshot, doesn't just continue to sit in the shower and bleed. He ups himself, and before trying to get help for himself, instinctively moves to the sink to assess the wound. He may have thought Jodi was leaving the scene at that point and was not an immediate threat. He was probably shaky and a bit disoriented, and had to prop himself with wet hands on the front of the sink. Clearly he was facing toward the mirror, so Jodi was not engaged in knife slashing at that point.

Jodi returns. Travis may have seen her in the mirror and turned to face her. She may have partially concealed the knife and pretended to be concerned about the wound so Travis would lower his guard. She lunged with a straight-on knife thrust to the chest. Travis, mortally wounded, was still able to attempt to fend off subsequent knife thrusts, incurring defensive wounds. Jodi still had the camera in her hand, and photo #3 was snapped during the start of the knife attack. Travis realizes that he must flee, and attempts to escape toward the bedroom. Jodi continues stabbing, Travis falls, and Jodi finishes him off with additional stabs and finally the coup de grace.

Total time for the murder: about one and three-quarters minutes (between photos 2 and 4). Total time for the knife attack: about a minute (between photos 3 and 4).

I'm thinking that there is not much time for Jodi to get the duvet cover and attempt to maneuver Travis' body prior to photo #4.

However between photos 4 and 5, another minute and 17 seconds elapses. What is Jodi doing during this minute? I'm guessing she was assessing the horror in front of her, grabbing the duvet cover, and maneuvering Travis' body back toward the still-running shower.

Dave

 

[Captain86]

Forget the ME. :banghead::banghead:

The ME for whatever reason gave that opinion. It could be argued either way.

If JM is half the lawyer I think he is, he will tell the Jury gunshot first before this is all over.

Because that gives him a slam dunk murder one case.

If he plays around with this knife first business, chances are higher it will be one of the lessor includeds or a hung jury.

IMO

How do you get to the knife being the first weapon used would result in a lesser charge or hung jury? Neither weapon ensures a slam dunk case. If he can prove that the gun used was her grandfather's, then that would be a slam dunk regardless of when it was used, first , last, or in the middle.

 

[LambChop]

Yes, "WE".
And that shot was in the face.

He was telling it like it was told to him.

That 48 Hour taping was in August of 2008 wasn't it???? A lot has changed since that taping. Jodi's lying now defines who she is rather than lying just to protect herself which was their opinion when this segment was taped. Early in any investigation it is always just a surface belief. Today after a fair amount of investigation and digging it's based on forensic evidence. jmo

 

[geevee]

It does not prove that the gun jammed. You are jumping to a conclusion that you want, because it supports your theory. All this tells us is that her story is not true.

Either way, your's or her's, why did he go to the sink? If he is functioning well enough to fight back after he is shot, then why did he turn his back on her and go to the sink? If she left the room to get the knife, why did he take the time to go to the sink, when he had an opportunity to leave when she went for the knife?

Maybe he thought she was going for help, I think he was disoriented enough to not know what happened, she might have even helped him get to the sink or in a standing position so she could stab him in the heart (as I think that was the entire purpose of her having or getting the knife).

 

[geevee]

Thanks! However, the time bothers me a bit. I really like the video which shows the photos in real time:

Travis Alexander shower pics in real time - YouTube

Basically the death scene goes like:

Photo#/time stamp (YouTube video time)

1) 5:29:20 - Travis looking at the camera (video time 6:13)
2) 5:30:30 - Travis lower half seated (video time 6:24)
3) 5:31:14 - Bathroom ceiling (video time 7:09)
4) 5:32:16 - Travis with neck slashed (video time 8:14)
5) 5:33:32 - Travis being dragged (video time 9:29)

Watching the photos in real time helps convey how much time Jodi had to conduct the mayhem. What fits for me is:

Jodi shoots Travis at, or immediately after, photo #2.

Then there is a significant pause prior to photo #3 (~45 sec) This would be the time that both Jodi and Travis realize the gun is jammed. Jodi leaves the bathroom to get the knife. Travis, stunned by the gunshot, doesn't just continue to sit in the shower and bleed. He ups himself, and before trying to get help for himself, instinctively moves to the sink to assess the wound. He may have thought Jodi was leaving the scene at that point and was not an immediate threat. He was probably shaky and a bit disoriented, and had to prop himself with wet hands on the front of the sink. Clearly he was facing toward the mirror, so Jodi was not engaged in knife slashing at that point.

Jodi returns. Travis may have seen her in the mirror and turned to face her. She may have partially concealed the knife and pretended to be concerned about the wound so Travis would lower his guard. She lunged with a straight-on knife thrust to the chest. Travis, mortally wounded, was still able to attempt to fend off subsequent knife thrusts, incurring defensive wounds. Jodi still had the camera in her hand, and photo #3 was snapped during the start of the knife attack. Travis realizes that he must flee, and attempts to escape toward the bedroom. Jodi continues stabbing, Travis falls, and Jodi finishes him off with additional stabs and finally the coup de grace.

Total time for the murder: about one and three-quarters minutes (between photos 2 and 4). Total time for the knife attack: about a minute (between photos 3 and 4).

I'm thinking that there is not much time for Jodi to get the duvet cover and attempt to maneuver Travis' body prior to photo #4.

However between photos 4 and 5, another minute and 17 seconds elapses. What is Jodi doing during this minute? I'm guessing she was assessing the horror in front of her, grabbing the duvet cover, and maneuvering Travis' body back toward the still-running shower.

Dave

I like your deductive reasoning and yes, going through the pics in real time shows how much can happen in what seems like a tiny amount of time when only looking at time stamps.

Do you think the gun jam/recoil could account for her third finger bent injury? I do think she cut her third and fourth finger on the knife but unless that third finger cut sliced through tendons it doesn't seem to account for the finger being permanently injured and not straightening properly. Maybe the recoil or 2nd attempted shot/jam caused that?

 

[sacrablue]

If she cut through a tendon, it will not heel without re-connection.

 

[geevee]

HLN recreation is on now, the lady is holding the gun in her right hand.

 

[Captain86]

I know! In her story alone, she admits to murder one. [[Although I'm sure her experts will say abused woman, yada, yada, yada]

So why mess with it and say, no, she's lying, it was knife first? And, looks more like self defense?

It's like both sides are arguing the wrong side.

IMO

Again, you focus on the wrong aspect of the case. Which happened first, gun shot or stab wound, is meaningless to whether this was Murder I. Everything she did prior to entering the states of AZ indicates a pre-planned anonymous trip to Travis' appartment. The killing blow was with a knife to the neck in the bedroom/bathroom hallway after she had stabbed him several times. When she shot him does not matter. She had several opportunities to exit his house without cutting his throat and killing him, but she did not take that option. She made a decision to cut his throat knowing it would end his life. He was face down in the entrance to his bedroom when his throat was cut. She was not under him, so she had to be standing over him from behind. He was no longer a threat, so self-defense is gone when she delivers the killing blow no matter which version you believe (any of her multiple versions, the State's, or any of the one's we have come up with). How the attack started does not matter anymore. Even her version if it is true does not save her from Muder I as she was not fighting for her life when she delivered the killing wound.

 

[sacrablue]

I can think of only one reason why you would go to sink/mirror...to look at damage on one's face, not a stab wound to chest, not a stab wound to back maybe a stab wound to head but too much blood and pattern is wrong.