Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[wasnt_me]

Something that is worth considering when you are thinking premeditation and that fact Jodi said she was in a fog. She started at the shower and if she wanted to kill him in the shower it would make sense she would drag him back there, which she did. Travis had already washed her off him. And if Jodi claimed she did not hurt herself at the scene then why was there a need to wash Travis off.

The palm print on the wall was her left hand because it was facing toward the bedroom so it had to have been her left. She showed Flores her left hand where the Ninjas cut her hand so we know her left hand was cut because there was blood on the wall belonging to her. If her hand were injured when she was continually stabbing Travis and she continued to stab but had to switch hands. At some point she had to have been getting tired of the stabbing and could have just gone for the gun and shot him to keep him from moving.

Either way there is a reason and basis for both weapons being used at any time during the murder. But the mere fact she changed weapons tells us she wanted him dead. And that she did accomplish. jmo

I agree. Washing the blood off him afterward was a way to clean him and restore what she'd done--as if she hadn't done it. I've seen cases where serial killers do that. They will redress the victim or comb their hair or something that indicates they are setting it back "right." His face didn't get washed because it was located under the shower head where the water wouldn't go. I don't know. She could have splashed a cup of water on his face if she'd wanted to, but she didn't.

I wonder if the shower door was closed when he was found because that would be equal to her covering him up. We've heard that killers who know their victims cover them up or cover their faces.

 

[wasnt_me]

Molly333 - I was trawling and found this by accident but thought it was interesting:

From, The Double Bind of Remorse and Redemption:


http://babelbooth.com/2013/03/23/the-double-bind-of-remorse-and-of-redemption/

I don't recall anyone questioning him about this in court? Did this really happen? Did they get his phone records? Do her phone records indicate this? What day was this call discussed in court? I thought I'd heard that he was just talking about this on interviews. Would he not be brought up on some kind of charges for not reporting this murder? How does Travis sit alone in a shower for 5 days if this man knew Travis was dead the same night it happened? And how does Jodi trust this man over Matthew?

 

[wasnt_me]

I agree. Remorse doesn't just appear in one, small burst and then POOF gone forever.

Remorse for herself. She admitted it in court when she said she came out of her fog and realized her life was over.

 

[wasnt_me]

How about coming out of a shower with wet feet, wet hands, wet everything and trying to pick her up to body slam her and somehow he remains standing. That is some fete. jmo

If only Travis knew, that camera survived a washing machine and bleach to identify his murderer.

 

[wasnt_me]

I couldn't either, and once I realized that the size of it was not as much larger than the baseboard below it than seems it should be, I starting looking at it as if it holds something smaller, like the bloody items she's taking with her to the washer, and then its size makes more sense. It simply doesn't seem big enough for a body to be in it.

On the upper left you can see what looks like buttons, and the duvet cover has white buttons on it, which is why I think this is the duvet cover and not the sheet, but both were in the dryer so it doesn't matter much which it is really. Unless it's something else totally and I can't see it yet. :blushing:

The white part by the wall has the same appearance as the blood that was dripping down Travis' right shoulder.

So given the other conversations we've been having, maybe she put Travis on some cover, lifted him, he hit the wall with his back to it, there is that sliding down we talked about and there he lands on the carpet?

I still have a sneaking thought that she might have thought she could get him out of the house and into a car trunk but it was just too much.

I was pretty sure that white part in the picture was Travis' shoulder. What do you guys think? compare shoulder in the thumbnail below to this picture.

by the way, in the foot picture, do you see blood behind jodi's foot on the floor? I'm not sure if I see it or not.

 

[katydid23]

The white part by the wall has the same appearance as the blood that was dripping down Travis' right shoulder.

So given the other conversations we've been having, maybe she put Travis on some cover, lifted him, he hit the wall with his back to it, there is that sliding down we talked about and there he lands on the carpet?

I still have a sneaking thought that she might have thought she could get him out of the house and into a car trunk but it was just too much.

I was pretty sure that white part in the picture was Travis' shoulder. What do you guys think? compare shoulder in the thumbnail below to this picture.

by the way, in the foot picture, do you see blood behind jodi's foot on the floor? I'm not sure if I see it or not.

I think we are looking at his shoulder and that seems like a river of blood flowing down the back of his shoulder. I think it is from his neck wound.

Isn't this the picture she refers to when she said to Juan, flippantly,' I don't know that his neck is slit there or not.'

She seemed so cold when she said that.

 

[wasnt_me]

It is the same picture, you're right. But in comparison to this one below, do you think it's Travis in both pictures? I put the words on there because it's what I "think" is Travis.

 

[RealityMan]

But if you look at the baseboards and the blood splatter on them, you might be able to determine which side of the hallway the pictures were taken on for certain and exactly where they were at that point. I just can't find photos that show what I'm saying but also orient the direction of the hallway.

Yes, there should be some way to tell from the crime scene photos exactly where TA is positioned on the tile and which way his head is facing. I wish we had more crime scene analysis on this issue.

Yeah, again, being on his back is problematic to how the smear happened and how he got on the carpet. Unless, like I think you might have said, she had SO much blood on her that she smeared the wall dragging him?

The blood spatter expert testified that drops of blood could have been cast off on the wall from the stabbing and then the smear could've been caused by someone brushing a part of their body through the spatter. I think it was probably TA rubbing against the wall as he fell, but I can see how it also might've been JA.

I don't know. Is that likely? I still don't 100% buy that his throat was slashed until he was on the carpet. She could have started trying to slash it, making that blood appear, but he was able to fight more, which made the wall smear, and she finally got him back down on the carpet to finish it?

Yes, I think his throat was slashed while he was on the carpet, and probably even while TA was on his stomach with his face pointing downward (as wilsodh suggested in one of his recent posts). That's why the first bleeding photo is such a mystery. How does he get on his back at that position in the hallway just 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo was taken and just 1 minute and 46 seconds since he was sitting in the shower, unharmed and unaware of what was about to happen?

What made the camera snap that photo? Jodi looks like she's standing still over him or is she stepping her left leg back, which hit the camera?

That's another one of the great mysteries of this case. I believe JA still had the camera in her right hand when she snapped the bathroom ceiling photo. My feeling is that she never dropped the camera. The dropping of the camera was just a story that she invented after seeing the photos that had been taken and trying to make up a justification for why she would have killed TA in self defense.

I think it's more likely that JA continued to hold the camera in her right hand for the entire 62 seconds between the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo. In other words, I think the big foot we are seeing in the foreground is JA's left foot and she is holding the camera upside down in her right hand (probably unaware that she is still holding it) when she accidentally presses the camera button.

I believe there was some speculation and testimony to the effect that the camera could've been on the ground and kicked to cause the last two bleeding photos to be taken, but the angles just don't look right for the camera to be on the ground. Additionally, the angle doesn't look consistent between the last two bleeding photos. If the camera was on the ground, I believe the angle would be closer to the ground and at least more consistent between the last two photos.

To me, it's incredibly unlikely that the camera was actually dropped in the bathroom and somehow get kicked down to the end of the hallway and oriented and kicked in such a way that it would capture the last two bleeding photos. The only thing that makes since is JA is still clutching the camera in her right hand, 62 seconds after having accidentally snapped the bathroom ceiling photo.

 

[wasnt_me]

I agree with what you say, Realityman.

Except, she could have pulled his head up by his hair, and he's looking at the bed as she slashes his throat. That angle would help provide the force to cut through because his neck would be taunt.

because the camera would be lopsided when it's upside down, and the picture would reflect that--unless the investigators rotated it. I have trouble with that camera getting kicked around the corner and down the hall, too, and I kind of wonder if the pictures were actually snapped at the bathroom side of the hallway--if it was on the ground, getting kicked.

Another theory is she had her own neck strap that fell down her body and caught onto her foot, causing her to drag it until the strap broke or got free. She claims she'd had her own camera in the house, so it's not a stretch that she had her own strap and took it with her.

If she had it in her hand, that could account for his ability to fight for so long. I can't see her switching weapons until he was done fighting if she had the camera in her hand. Pure rage from the fight he put up could have caused her to shoot him in the head in the end.

 

[RealityMan]

I'm really struggling with this photo. What exactly are we looking at? I've looked at it until my eyes are bleary. I can't line up the blood streaks with the preceding photo, and I can't figure out how the body is oriented.

Can anyone help?

Dave

I think we're looking at a side view of TA's back. He is laying in roughly the same position as in the previous photo, which was snapped 76 seconds earlier. In other words, he hasn't moved much at all in the 76 seconds between the photos.

Although we can't see TA's head in the photo, I believe the blood streaks on the right side of his back are more of the same streaks that we see in the previous photo. We can now see blood streaks coming down the left side of his back as well.

He has either crunched himself up into a partial sitting position, or JA is actually lifting him up into that position. I do not think this photo provides any evidence whatsoever that JA is using the duvet cover to move TA's body, as some have speculated.

For example, the little blurry circular-shaped thing in the upper left corner of the photo does not appear to me to be a button from the duvet cover. I don't know what that thing could possibly be, though.

Again, it does not look to me like the camera is on the floor. Instead, it looks to me that JA is still holding the camera in her right hand when she accidentally snaps this photo.

 

[RealityMan]

. . . because the camera would be lopsided when it's upside down, and the picture would reflect that--unless the investigators rotated it.

Detective Flores wrote in his report that the last two photos were taken upside down. But I still think JA was holding the camera in her right hand. It was just that her hand was off to the side such that the camera was oriented that way. It's easy to see how her right arm could've been dangling down or otherwise positioned to take that photo upside down.

I have trouble with that camera getting kicked around the corner and down the hall, too, and I kind of wonder if the pictures were actually snapped at the bathroom side of the hallway--if it was on the ground, getting kicked.

I still believe that light emanating from down the hall is the light from the bathroom and the sink/mirror area is visible in the background just above TA's right foot. I think that's what JM asked JA during cross examination and what she agreed to (not that it's the truth), but I could be wrong about that. Yes, the dropped camera story would be more plausible if TA's body was oriented in the other direction down the hallway, but I think JA's dropped-camera story is a pure fabrication.

 

[molly333]

Okay, I'm telling you what I think because you are telling me what you think. You think he's proved something I don't think he's proved. It's your opinion what he proved or didn't prove, and it's my right to have a different opinion.

You cannot say that I am not thinking like a juror just because I am not thinking like you. I can be called for jury and selected for jury any day, and if I was, I would bring my brain and thus my thinking into that seat.

As for casey Anthony, everyone was not blindsided by it because some thought she was innocent.

It's very presumptuous to think "most people" don't know the definition of narcissistic. JM, imo, is clearly setting her up for it, whether the word is used or not. Has anyone outright called Travis a paedophile? Because that's what the DT is trying to say he is or was headed toward. In fact, I've seen sites where comments outright call him that. As for court, I don't remember if anyone has said outright that he is one or not, but we've been talking about the implications from what's been shown in court.

If you're a therapist with better credentials than Sam, then maybe we can talk in an off topic thread about my inappropriate thinking.

Ok, Let me try to back out of this gracefully because I never meant to imply or say there was anything wrong with your thinking. Your thinking is just fine.

What I was trying to say is that you and I as the public know a lot more and are given a lot more latitude than the actual sitting Jury in this case. So, yes, the defense introduced testimony through Jodi that Travis was a pedophile. That is on the table for the Jury. They will discuss it and decide from the evidence given them if that is a proven fact and if they think it is even relevant. As far as Jodi is concerned, the only thing on the table so far for the Jury is the testimony of Dr. RS. So they will discuss that evidence and decide what it proves to them. Then there will be the abuse expert, and likewise, anything she introduces will be discussed by them. JM might have his own experts on rebuttal and what they say will be discussed.

If some of these experts bring up the issue that she is a narcissist, then the Jury will discuss the evidence of that presented to them. So far, this has not happened. There are some things that they can easily see about her character from the testimony. For instance, they will probably discuss her veracity. But, I don't think it is appropriate for them to sit there and try to psychoanalyse her on their own without the benefit of any expert testimony, and I can't see them doing that.

We can toss these ideas among ourselves because we do not have to rely only on the testimony and evidence submitted in court. And, we have a lot more input than they do from friends of Travis and experts on tv and so on. You might be right about your opinions on that--that wasn't what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the limitations of the Jury compared to a public bombarded with all kinds of information that is not allowed to be presented as evidence in court.

In other words, your thinking is just fine. I never meant to say otherwise. Carry on!:seeya:

And please except my apologies if it sounded like I meant otherwise.

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

Some more thoughts on the photos . . .

As many gun-firsters have noted, the last known position of TA in the shower, captured at 5:30:30, fits the known bullet trajectory from right to left and downwards across TA's face based on a surprise gunshot fired from JA's left hand from outside the shower. Additionally, this crouched position is not particularly suited for a stab to the chest because TA is in a posture the offers some protection from a knife blow.

However, I believe the position of TA with his back on the floor in the first bleeding photo, captured at 5:32:16, demonstrates a perfect opportunity for JA to inflict the stab wound to TA's heart that severed his vena cava. JA need only stab directly downwards upon TA's exposed chest area to inflict that wound.

I think it's possible that JA has not inflicted the final neck slash at this point. Perhaps in the moments after this last photo is taken, TA flops onto his stomach and crawls to the carpet area. Now JA drops the camera (finally) and uses her right hand to grab TA by the hair and her left hand to cut his throat.

 

[Whisperer]

Once a bullet hits the brain, you will be incapacitated. I agree him sitting there in that last pic would be the angle for the shooting but there was testimony that no blood was found at the site, indicated he was dead prior to the shot.

It is mind boggling to try and figure this out...You bring up a good point. What position was Travis in when she fired the gun?

 

[wasnt_me]

Thanks, Molly,

I, personally, do not put any expectations on what the jury is going to do in that room, and what they will or won't talk about. I think anything can and does happen. Maybe they will or won't discuss things in terms of labels, but as you pointed out in your post, I am free--as are we all--to do that, regardless of whether the jury is. I can't possibly behave like a juror and also be in this forum because talking about this case with others is against jury instructions.

In my view, we cannot control what's in a person's head, and if they recognize symptoms, they might very well apply symptoms to Jodi. Even the term "crazy" has a psychological foundation. psychiatrists have simply divided "crazy" up into vast categories of crazy. I don't know that jurors can't think she's crazy just because no expert has said so. They might even think she's a nympho, though no expert has said so. And they might think Travis is a sexual deviant, but I doubt any expert can testify to this.

I don't know that we'll have a Mormon expert explain that Travis and Jodi had broken the rules, but the jury will probably discuss that they had. And, as this thread has proved, just because an expert (like the ME) says something, doesn't mean they will or will not believe it.

My hope is that the jury will not think in all or nothing, absolute terms that will restrain them from true discovery, and that they will apply the law accordingly while reaching a verdict.

ETA--I don't see where JM has really disagreed with testimony from Jodi that the gun was first. So far, he's let her say this. Maybe that's enough for the jury to believe the gun first theory. I don't know. They are not required to believe the ME.

 

[Whisperer]

Yes, there should be some way to tell from the crime scene photos exactly where TA is positioned on the tile and which way his head is facing. I wish we had more crime scene analysis on this issue.



The blood spatter expert testified that drops of blood could have been cast off on the wall from the stabbing and then the smear could've been caused by someone brushing a part of their body through the spatter. I think it was probably TA rubbing against the wall as he fell, but I can see how it also might've been JA.



Yes, I think his throat was slashed while he was on the carpet, and probably even while TA was on his stomach with his face pointing downward (as wilsodh suggested in one of his recent posts). That's why the first bleeding photo is such a mystery. How does he get on his back at that position in the hallway just 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo was taken and just 1 minute and 46 seconds since he was sitting in the shower, unharmed and unaware of what was about to happen?



That's another one of the great mysteries of this case. I believe JA still had the camera in her right hand when she snapped the bathroom ceiling photo. My feeling is that she never dropped the camera. The dropping of the camera was just a story that she invented after seeing the photos that had been taken and trying to make up a justification for why she would have killed TA in self defense.

I think it's more likely that JA continued to hold the camera in her right hand for the entire 62 seconds between the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo. In other words, I think the big foot we are seeing in the foreground is JA's left foot and she is holding the camera upside down in her right hand (probably unaware that she is still holding it) when she accidentally presses the camera button.

I believe there was some speculation and testimony to the effect that the camera could've been on the ground and kicked to cause the last two bleeding photos to be taken, but the angles just don't look right for the camera to be on the ground. Additionally, the angle doesn't look consistent between the last two bleeding photos. If the camera was on the ground, I believe the angle would be closer to the ground and at least more consistent between the last two photos.

To me, it's incredibly unlikely that the camera was actually dropped in the bathroom and somehow get kicked down to the end of the hallway and oriented and kicked in such a way that it would capture the last two bleeding photos. The only thing that makes since is JA is still clutching the camera in her right hand, 62 seconds after having accidentally snapped the bathroom ceiling photo.

IMO, it had to be her right foot due to the leg zipper on the pants. I agree about the angle. How could a camera take an upside down photo (as was stated) if the camera was on the floor?

 

[Whisperer]

I think we're looking at a side view of TA's back. He is laying in roughly the same position as in the previous photo, which was snapped 76 seconds earlier. In other words, he hasn't moved much at all in the 76 seconds between the photos.

Although we can't see TA's head in the photo, I believe the blood streaks on the right side of his back are more of the same streaks that we see in the previous photo. We can now see blood streaks coming down the left side of his back as well.

He has either crunched himself up into a partial sitting position, or JA is actually lifting him up into that position. I do not think this photo provides any evidence whatsoever that JA is using the duvet cover to move TA's body, as some have speculated.

For example, the little blurry circular-shaped thing in the upper left corner of the photo does not appear to me to be a button from the duvet cover. I don't know what that thing could possibly be, though.
Again, it does not look to me like the camera is on the floor. Instead, it looks to me that JA is still holding the camera in her right hand when she accidentally snaps this photo.

Could it be the top part of her pant zipper?

 

[MeeBee]

IMO, it had to be her right foot due to the leg zipper on the pants. I agree about the angle. How could a camera take an upside down photo (as was stated) if the camera was on the floor?

The ground was tripping the shutter release button when it was moved.

 

[RealityMan]

Once a bullet hits the brain, you will be incapacitated. I agree him sitting there in that last pic would be the angle for the shooting but there was testimony that no blood was found at the site, indicated he was dead prior to the shot.

It is mind boggling to try and figure this out...You bring up a good point. What position was Travis in when she fired the gun?

Here we go again . . .

I believe the ME leaves open the possibility that the gunshot wound came first. I was going to point you to a post I made a few days ago that addresses this issue, as well as the commentary that followed, but then I discovered that the mods have deleted my original post!

I don't think I have said anything on this forum that deserves censorship!

 

[wasnt_me]

Okay, I have just decided that the foot picture is not her foot. It's the shadow of Travis' head, maybe with light coming from the bedroom making a shadow.

Look at the "foot." you will see a white space in the "foot." That's a sliver of Travis' back showing through. Jodi's foot faces the opposite way.

Jodi's foot appears to face the wall on the left. Her real foot. The part we are mistaking for a foot has one long dark sliver coming out of it. That's a shadow of Travis' hair. If you follow the line along that shadow toward Travis, you can see the shadow of his brow.

But first just look at that foot for the flesh colored break. That's definitely his back.