John Ramsey Fabricated Open Basement Window "Evidence"

[Tadpole12]

I don't believe so. Do you have it (or the link)?

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

"#17.7
John Ramsey (6/98)

(0508-12) 12 SMIT: Just one more question. I have got a photograph here called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll of pictures or someone's roll of pictures from before, okay, and it shows, first of all, put it to the camera so they can see that. And I am going to show you that.


(0508-20) LOU SMIT: Do you know who would have taken that photograph? JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely possible that I was having trouble with my camera, I think, and I don't remember doing this, but I can remember just clicking the camera, trying to see if it worked. LOU SMIT: When was that? JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we got the cameras out were typically at Christmas time. But this looks like the pad frankly that I gave her. LOU SMIT: Does that look like the spot where you would -- that you picked it up from? JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my recollection, yeah. LOU SMIT: So that could be the actual pad of a picture taken prior to what happened? JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.

****************
Photo of Patsy's pad that John gave police
Photo taken prior to murder
School bag in corner, toy, Santa Claus suit, red present, Day timer missing, plastic bags are moved"

 

[Tadpole12]

https://www.ottoradio.com/podcast/r...am-discuss-the-replica-house-and-the-tests-43

Episode 38: The Case of JonBenet Ramsey - The team discuss the replica house and the tests

****************************
Real Crime Profile:
https://soundcloud.com/real-crime-profile

And there it was, gone.

 

[Cottonstar]

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

"#17.7
John Ramsey (6/98)

(0508-12) 12 SMIT: Just one more question. I have got a photograph here called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll of pictures or someone's roll of pictures from before, okay, and it shows, first of all, put it to the camera so they can see that. And I am going to show you that.


(0508-20) LOU SMIT: Do you know who would have taken that photograph? JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely possible that I was having trouble with my camera, I think, and I don't remember doing this, but I can remember just clicking the camera, trying to see if it worked. LOU SMIT: When was that? JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we got the cameras out were typically at Christmas time. But this looks like the pad frankly that I gave her. LOU SMIT: Does that look like the spot where you would -- that you picked it up from? JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my recollection, yeah. LOU SMIT: So that could be the actual pad of a picture taken prior to what happened? JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.

****************
Photo of Patsy's pad that John gave police
Photo taken prior to murder
School bag in corner, toy, Santa Claus suit, red present, Day timer missing, plastic bags are moved"

Thank you Tadpole.
Photo 17.7 is from John's camera. Don't bother looking for it bc you won't find it anywhere. You are correct, it was taken before the CSI's arrived that morning to document the crime scene. Someone had moved the pads from the glass table to the wet bar area.


cottonstar

 

[andreww]

^ I can't answer for her, but there are answers here:

1. You are missing the point. The point is, that the intruder was also someone familiar with the home (i.e. an "insider"..."an inside job"). An insider would know their way in and out of the house without leaving any trace behind (key perhaps), just as they would know JR's bonus.

Why would they go that route? Sure you can think that the idea was to frame the housekeeper or whoever, but lets face it, this was Christmas day and most people are going to have an alibi. Why would you try to pin it on maybe 3 or 4 people who likely were in the company of others when you could blame it on any one of millions of unknowns? Thats actually the route they would end up taking.

2. Because he knew (or at the very least, thought) it could be easily explained after the fact by someone -- a maid, etc.

He apparently already told Fleet that he had previously broken the window, so why not point out the fact that he had found it unlatched? It is a perfect clue, its right there, yet he doesn't use it.

3. Because he had no other options and/or because he realized it would look suspicious if he went out of his way to not give up the pad. That, or he wasn't involved in the writing the note -- he was busy covering up the crime and tending to the body. Think about it: you have these 2 writing pads in plain view of every single police officer in the home that day -- and you're not going to hand them over? Especially if he was asked for samples while in the immediate vicinity of the writing pads with the officer?

They weren't asking for a pad, they were specifically looking for samples of Patsy's handwriting. Certainly John could have found something else? But you are correct that he may not have know which pad she used.

4. His demeanor could have changed because he realized there was no way out; meaning, the cops were still at the home and his anxiety was now ramping up at the fact that his original plan (to dispose of the body) had to change now. "The walls were starting to close" so to speak.

Or because he had found the body when he disappeared for 1.5 hours.

 

[andreww]

While that is one way of looking at it, another way of looking at it is that JR might not have known anything about what happened that night until PR showed him that phony RN. imo, it is a possibility. And I don't think there is anything that can absolutely rule out that possibility.

Exactly. There is no solid evidence to establish his prior knowledge. So the case for both sides of the argument is based on his behaviour that morning, arguments which are subjective at best. Confusing things even further is the fact that the question isn't just "did or didn't he know?". You have to account for the possibility that he didn't know but did have strong suspicions. I am open to both sides, but I really don't like this whole "John knew and you're an idiot if you don't agree" attitude.

 

[Dynamic88]

Hi Doc! (I'm kidding.....I think).

I'm in the group who doesn't believe that window was initially staging. IMO part of the dispute took place in the basement which led to that window break. It needed to be covered up ASAP. John immediately distances the window from the crime....of a supposed intruder breaking in to kidnap(murder) their daughter...yet the broken window was just a coincidence and had happened a coon's age ago? That dog wont hunt.

One of the first red flags waving that morning that no one detected. Its also one of the most overlooked clues in the case. Like I said, I do give him props for realizing its important. I just arrive at a different destination. Patsy's all over this crime like flies on a rib roast yet Doc believes she's 100% innocent. He has to at this point. His theory is so elaborate that if he gives an inch on Patsy, there goes the house of cards....

I think it's possible the window was broken, and the glass swept up, before he/she/they realized the need to stage the window as an entry point. By the time they realized that the window provided a good excuse for how the "intruder" got in, it was too late, the glass had been taken care of.

Or, they preferred to go with the "inside job" angle, so much so that they unstaged the prior window staging. But why is an inside job so important that they unstage the window?

Yes, Doc's theory requires a 100% innocent PR. That's a weakness, I think.

A few random thoughts on both the window and other elements of Doc's theory, for anyone who might care to comment -

* If the window were meant to be only an exit, there'd be no reason to break the glass. The window was openable from inside the house. Since the Ramseys would tell police that the alarm was not set, the mythical intruder could have made his exit by any ground floor door. I don't know the details of the Ramsey house alarm system but on the systems I'm familiar with one can tell the the alarm is "set" or not. Thus, an entry point is required, but no exit point need be staged. Any ground floor door will do.

* The window can be seen as partially staged, as per Doc's theory, or not staged at all, if one believes JR's lost key story.
The problem I always have with partial staging is why not complete the staging? Doc has it being left for another day, but there is a substantial risk of the "innocent" Patsy seeing the window in partially staged condition. Just to make it convincing, in case Patsy went searching the house, it would seem to require completion. If PR/JR worked together on the coverup, they'd certainly have completed the staging before calling the police.

* The spider web could have been overlooked in the darkness of the window well. IMO it's existence doesn't tell us that someone did or did not stage the window. Aside from the web, it seems to me the window was sufficiently staged to indicate an entry point - that is, it was sufficiently staged with the glass laying on the floor.

* Despite what Doc says on his blog, if the glass was swept up after the 911 call then it must have been swept up before the police arrived. It would be dangerous to start sweeping up glass with the police roaming around the house. And he couldn't know whether the police would check the train room or not. What if the police had seen the glass on their initial search of the basement ?

* if the missing size 6 panties had JR's semen on them, they'd have to be disposed of in the same short time period between the 911 call and the arrival of the police. No way could JR run the risk of having those panties found with his semen on them. (Sorry, this takes us away from the window issue and probably should be in another thread) I bring this up in the context of the window because to my mind JR -in keeping with Doc's theory- has two things to do. 1. unstage the window, and 2. dispose of the panties that Doc is certain contain traces of JR's semen. Since JR will not be able to control or predict what the police will do, logic dictates both these things need to be done prior to the police arriving. I'm not sure he has time to do both. #2 is far more important than #1. Doc would have us believe JR is walking around the basement tampering with evidence while the house is full of police and friends. This strikes me as unlikely. (I'm not necessarily in agreement with Doc that the size 6s JBR presumably had on earlier in the night had JR's semen on them. In fact, I think it's rather unlikely. But this is part of Doc's theory)

 

[andreww]

Correct me if I am wrong, you are suggesting that the window was either intentionally or accidentally broken that night and that John swept up the glass because he wanted to make it look like an "inside job" (i.e. someone who had a key). Its an interesting theory, but I don't see the reasoning behind why John would want to narrow down the list of suspects to a chosen few? Why not leave the glass and make it look like a random intruder? A lot more suspects that way.

If you are going to disbelieve John's forgotten key story, I would suggest that it happened differently. Perhaps Burke hits her, then breaks the window to suggest that someone came in to the basement and killed her? But he broke the window from the inside and most of the glass went outside, so that necessitates a cleanup. It would also possibly explain how the flashlight came in to play, John needed it to see all the glass outside.

 

[Userid]

Why would they go that route? Sure you can think that the idea was to frame the housekeeper or whoever, but lets face it, this was Christmas day and most people are going to have an alibi. Why would you try to pin it on maybe 3 or 4 people who likely were in the company of others when you could blame it on any one of millions of unknowns? Thats actually the route they would end up taking.



He apparently already told Fleet that he had previously broken the window, so why not point out the fact that he had found it unlatched? It is a perfect clue, its right there, yet he doesn't use it.



They weren't asking for a pad, they were specifically looking for samples of Patsy's handwriting. Certainly John could have found something else? But you are correct that he may not have know which pad she used.



Or because he had found the body when he disappeared for 1.5 hours.

For starters, I think you know what I meant with the pads; you're splitting hairs with the bolded. Like I said, if he felt the cops had seen the writing pads already, he would have given them the writing pads out of fear of looking suspicious. The pads would have the "writing samples" the cops were asking for; they'd be the logical choice to hand over.

Your scenario doesn't make much sense. If he didn't know what happened, and was slowly putting the pieces together, then found the body when he "disappeared" for 1.5 hours (that 1.5 hours is debatable, but I digress) -- the guy would have flipped out nonetheless. He wouldn't have automatically assumed his young son killed his daughter based strictly on a weird ransom note he may or may not have suspected his wife of writing, and decide on a dime that he needed to cover up his own daughter's murder.

If you're going to ask why they wouldn't blame any old intruder, you may as well ask why they addressed to note strictly to "Mr. Ramsey," why the specific amount of JR's bonus? Why the "southern charm" comment? It's because any old intruder wouldn't and couldn't have written that note; and any old intruder wouldn't have been familiar enough to plan a kidnapping of this family's daughter. If they were planning on staging it as a kidnapping, and/or a kidnapping gone wrong, they had to have a ransom note and the "kidnapper" had to show familiarity.

To your window question: you're proving my point even more. If he didn't know anything about what happened, why wouldn't he mention it unlatched all the same?

 

[Userid]

Exactly. There is no solid evidence to establish his prior knowledge. So the case for both sides of the argument is based on his behaviour that morning, arguments which are subjective at best. Confusing things even further is the fact that the question isn't just "did or didn't he know?". You have to account for the possibility that he didn't know but did have strong suspicions. I am open to both sides, but I really don't like this whole "John knew and you're an idiot if you don't agree" attitude.

I never once said this (the bolded). I'm trying to be as respectful as possible, just so we're clear. I try to focus on the argument and not the poster.

 

[andreww]

I never once said this (the bolded). I'm trying to be as respectful as possible, just so we're clear. I try to focus on the argument and not the poster.

wasn't talking about you lol. You are polite and insightful

 

[andreww]

For starters, I think you know what I meant with the pads; you're splitting hairs with the bolded. Like I said, if he felt the cops had seen the writing pads already, he would have given them the writing pads out of fear of looking suspicious. The pads would have the "writing samples" the cops were asking for; they'd be the logical choice to hand over.

Maybe, maybe not. Cops wouldn't have known at that point who's handwriting was whose. John could easily have grabbed something else Patsy had written, but to be honest, I'd have a hard time locating something my wife had written. These are different times though.

Your scenario doesn't make much sense. If he didn't know what happened, and was slowly putting the pieces together, then found the body when he "disappeared" for 1.5 hours (that 1.5 hours is debatable, but I digress) -- the guy would have flipped out nonetheless. He wouldn't have automatically assumed his young son killed his daughter based strictly on a weird ransom note he may or may not have suspected his wife of writing, and decide on a dime that he needed to cover up his own daughter's murder.

He may very well have flipped out. He was gone a while. And why would he not suspect his son? We know the Pugh's had provided them with several self help books for children, so lets not pretend there wasn't an issue. I believe he likely recognized Patsy's writing from the start, and although he was probably uncertain, her behaviour that morning likely furthered his suspicions.

If you're going to ask why they wouldn't blame any old intruder, you may as well ask why they addressed to note strictly to "Mr. Ramsey," why the specific amount of JR's bonus? Why the "southern charm" comment? It's because any old intruder wouldn't and couldn't have written that note; and any old intruder wouldn't have been familiar enough to plan a kidnapping of this family's daughter. If they were planning on staging it as a kidnapping, and/or a kidnapping gone wrong, they had to have a ransom note and the "kidnapper" had to show familiarity.

The note is clear that this was somebody from a "foreign faction" came and took their daughter. I wouldn't expect them to have a key. The second that you say there is no forced entry, you are limiting your suspect pool to a handful of people, and on Christmas day there is a huge chance that ALL those people would have alibis. Then who do you look at? It makes a hell of a lot more sense to say "maybe they came in through that broken window?". Then at least you don't look so suspicious when you finally mention it four months later.

To your window question: you're proving my point even more. If he didn't know anything about what happened, why wouldn't he mention it unlatched all the same?

Personally I don't think he ever latched the window. I think he made that up when Smit was pressing for an entry point. I think the suitcase was always sitting there as well.

 

[kanzz]

For starters, I think you know what I meant with the pads; you're splitting hairs with the bolded. Like I said, if he felt the cops had seen the writing pads already, he would have given them the writing pads out of fear of looking suspicious. The pads would have the "writing samples" the cops were asking for; they'd be the logical choice to hand over.

Your scenario doesn't make much sense.

bbm

hmm. I think it does. For the most part, I think andreww and I agree.

If he didn't know what happened, and was slowly putting the pieces together, then found the body when he "disappeared" for 1.5 hours (that 1.5 hours is debatable, but I digress) -- the guy would have flipped out nonetheless. He wouldn't have automatically assumed his young son killed his daughter based strictly on a weird ransom note he may or may not have suspected his wife of writing, and decide on a dime that he needed to cover up his own daughter's murder.

He might have "flipped out" quietly. Most people do. It's not like it is in the movies or on TV.
Histrionics was PR's game, not JR's. In a couple, often one has a tendency to go the opposite way of the other. Also, I doubt he would have made a sound with all those ppl upstairs. He already knew that was her handwriting, had observed her for several hours, and was piecing together that something was terribly off. imo

<<snipped>>

 

[Userid]

Maybe, maybe not. Cops wouldn't have known at that point who's handwriting was whose. John could easily have grabbed something else Patsy had written, but to be honest, I'd have a hard time locating something my wife had written. These are different times though.



He may very well have flipped out. He was gone a while. And why would he not suspect his son? We know the Pugh's had provided them with several self help books for children, so lets not pretend there wasn't an issue. I believe he likely recognized Patsy's writing from the start, and although he was probably uncertain, her behaviour that morning likely furthered his suspicions.



The note is clear that this was somebody from a "foreign faction" came and took their daughter. I wouldn't expect them to have a key. The second that you say there is no forced entry, you are limiting your suspect pool to a handful of people, and on Christmas day there is a huge chance that ALL those people would have alibis. Then who do you look at? It makes a hell of a lot more sense to say "maybe they came in through that broken window?". Then at least you don't look so suspicious when you finally mention it four months later.



Personally I don't think he ever latched the window. I think he made that up when Smit was pressing for an entry point. I think the suitcase was always sitting there as well.

I think people tend to exaggerate BR's "issues" prior to this murder. In all honesty, he wasn't really all that much different than a typical boy. But let's say he did have some "issues," I still don't see how JR would jump from "my son has issues" to "my son killed my daughter and my wife is covering it up." There would have at least been a confrontation (however mild or however ferociously) between JR and PR at some point from when JR first read the note to when the body was discovered, if he had any inkling whatsoever; or if he had found the body anytime before the official time.

You couldn't open this up to "anyone" as far as the note goes; at least not initially (although, the R's eventually would; they pretty much started to throw s..t at the wall to see what would stick the longer the investigation went on). They needed to make JBR disappear (in my belief, to dispose of the body at a later time), so they invented a kidnapping theory. The only way a kidnapping theory works, is if the kidnapper is an "insider." It's not just a handful: JR's company had many associates (and I imagine, many employees) and he did business with many other businesses. You also have the cleaning crew; the fix-it crew; etc. It's the same reason why JR only handed over the specific amount of keys that he did to police; there were multiple other keys that were not handed over and that JR simply couldn't account for, conveniently.

Here's the thing: put yourself in JR's shoes, in your scenario. You find this ransom note. You kinda think it looks like your wife's writing. You notice it's addressed strictly to you. You pretty much come to the conclusion that your wife did write it, and not only that, that she's trying to somehow imply that you personally are responsible for your daughter's disappearance. In essence, she's trying to frame you, either directly or indirectly, for being responsible. Okay, you think: maybe she's bat sh.t crazy. Maybe she's just hiding JBR for whatever reason. So you go and look around the house, and you actually find her dead body. Why, in the ever-loving world, would you then decide, on a dime: "you know what, I'm going to protect my wife here" after all that, where she is trying to imply that you were (directly or indirectly) responsible? And also, why wouldn't you automatically believe that she -- not your 9 year old son -- killed her (unless you knew beforehand that it indeed was your nine year old son)? I respect your opinion but to me, that doesn't make enough sense. At that point, I believe JR would have protected his own butt, considering it would've appeared to him that his wife was trying to put either the blame and/or the police focus on him somehow. You keep bringing up the past: well, the maids have gone on record saying that they saw little to no love shared between PR and JR; and that they never even made love. So again, I don't see why JR would have any inclination whatsoever to protect his wife in this situation, considering it's questionable they ever really cared for one another beforehand.

 

[UKGuy]

I think people tend to exaggerate BR's "issues" prior to this murder. In all honesty, he wasn't really all that much different than a typical boy. But let's say he did have some "issues," I still don't see how JR would jump from "my son has issues" to "my son killed my daughter and my wife is covering it up." There would have at least been a confrontation (however mild or however ferociously) between JR and PR at some point from when JR first read the note to when the body was discovered, if he had any inkling whatsoever; or if he had found the body anytime before the official time.

You couldn't open this up to "anyone" as far as the note goes; at least not initially (although, the R's eventually would; they pretty much started to throw s..t at the wall to see what would stick the longer the investigation went on). They needed to make JBR disappear (in my belief, to dispose of the body at a later time), so they invented a kidnapping theory. The only way a kidnapping theory works, is if the kidnapper is an "insider." It's not just a handful: JR's company had many associates (and I imagine, many employees) and he did business with many other businesses. You also have the cleaning crew; the fix-it crew; etc. It's the same reason why JR only handed over the specific amount of keys that he did to police; there were multiple other keys that were not handed over and that JR simply couldn't account for, conveniently.

Here's the thing: put yourself in JR's shoes, in your scenario. You find this ransom note. You kinda think it looks like your wife's writing. You notice it's addressed strictly to you. You pretty much come to the conclusion that your wife did write it, and not only that, that she's trying to somehow imply that you personally are responsible for your daughter's disappearance. In essence, she's trying to frame you, either directly or indirectly, for being responsible. Okay, you think: maybe she's bat sh.t crazy. Maybe she's just hiding JBR for whatever reason. So you go and look around the house, and you actually find her dead body. Why, in the ever-loving world, would you then decide, on a dime: "you know what, I'm going to protect my wife here" after all that, where she is trying to imply that you were (directly or indirectly) responsible? And also, why wouldn't you automatically believe that she -- not your 9 year old son -- killed her (unless you knew beforehand that it indeed was your nine year old son)? I respect your opinion but to me, that doesn't make enough sense. At that point, I believe JR would have protected his own butt, considering it would've appeared to him that his wife was trying to put either the blame and/or the police focus on him somehow. You keep bringing up the past: well, the maids have gone on record saying that they saw little to no love shared between PR and JR; and that they never even made love. So again, I don't see why JR would have any inclination whatsoever to protect his wife in this situation, considering it's questionable they ever really cared for one another beforehand.

Userid,
Well I reckon you are right. For one simple reason: how does JR know what to say, when to say it, and when to keep his mouth shut?

If the case is PDI then PR and JR need to be telepathic for JR to be on message, similar for JDI.

We also know that JR is saying to someone during/after the 911 call, something like: We are not talking to you, also later the parents retract their claim that BR was sound asleep during the initial discovery period.

That's both parents, i.e agreeing they know BR was awake. i.e. JR is not an ignorant participant.

Also on the suitcase it was JR who said he moved it down to the basement. Fleet White said he moved the suitcase that morning and placed a shard of glass on it he found on the floor?

Because JR never knew this, he allowed Lou Smit to fly his intruder theory on the back of it, with Smit claiming the intruder used it to step on, all fiction of course?

Even if JR broke the window earlier that year, then maybe the intruder used the same point for exit, with JonBenet, how would JR know otherwise?

Then of course we have the considerate intruder who took his broken glass away with him, along with the remaining size-12 underwear pairs?

People just need to apply occam here to arrive at the simplest explanation: JR was covering up either someone else's prior staging, or the actual remnants of a real crime-scene?

Why does JR need to put himself in the firing line, saying, Oh I broke that window, and the suitcase, well I moved it?

He's a CEO, he employs a housemaid to do stuff like that. Why not Patsy who was in JAR's room packing suitcases.

Looks like the suitcase was used to transport stuff from one part of the house to the basement, you know, like cleaning up a crime-scene?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe, maybe not. Cops wouldn't have known at that point who's handwriting was whose. John could easily have grabbed something else Patsy had written, but to be honest, I'd have a hard time locating something my wife had written. These are different times though.



He may very well have flipped out. He was gone a while. And why would he not suspect his son? We know the Pugh's had provided them with several self help books for children, so lets not pretend there wasn't an issue. I believe he likely recognized Patsy's writing from the start, and although he was probably uncertain, her behaviour that morning likely furthered his suspicions.



The note is clear that this was somebody from a "foreign faction" came and took their daughter. I wouldn't expect them to have a key. The second that you say there is no forced entry, you are limiting your suspect pool to a handful of people, and on Christmas day there is a huge chance that ALL those people would have alibis. Then who do you look at? It makes a hell of a lot more sense to say "maybe they came in through that broken window?". Then at least you don't look so suspicious when you finally mention it four months later.



Personally I don't think he ever latched the window. I think he made that up when Smit was pressing for an entry point. I think the suitcase was always sitting there as well.

andreww,
BBM: My understanding is that Fleet White moved it into that position, whilst doing his first search that morning, i.e. within minutes of arriving at the house?

.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
BBM: My understanding is that Fleet White moved it into that position, whilst doing his first search that morning, i.e. within minutes of arriving at the house?

.

Agreed, it was askew from FW moving it, but I mean it was always under the window. It wasn't moved there from somewhere else.

 

[andreww]

I think people tend to exaggerate BR's "issues" prior to this murder. In all honesty, he wasn't really all that much different than a typical boy. But let's say he did have some "issues," I still don't see how JR would jump from "my son has issues" to "my son killed my daughter and my wife is covering it up." There would have at least been a confrontation (however mild or however ferociously) between JR and PR at some point from when JR first read the note to when the body was discovered, if he had any inkling whatsoever; or if he had found the body anytime before the official time.

You couldn't open this up to "anyone" as far as the note goes; at least not initially (although, the R's eventually would; they pretty much started to throw s..t at the wall to see what would stick the longer the investigation went on). They needed to make JBR disappear (in my belief, to dispose of the body at a later time), so they invented a kidnapping theory. The only way a kidnapping theory works, is if the kidnapper is an "insider." It's not just a handful: JR's company had many associates (and I imagine, many employees) and he did business with many other businesses. You also have the cleaning crew; the fix-it crew; etc. It's the same reason why JR only handed over the specific amount of keys that he did to police; there were multiple other keys that were not handed over and that JR simply couldn't account for, conveniently.

Here's the thing: put yourself in JR's shoes, in your scenario. You find this ransom note. You kinda think it looks like your wife's writing. You notice it's addressed strictly to you. You pretty much come to the conclusion that your wife did write it, and not only that, that she's trying to somehow imply that you personally are responsible for your daughter's disappearance. In essence, she's trying to frame you, either directly or indirectly, for being responsible. Okay, you think: maybe she's bat sh.t crazy. Maybe she's just hiding JBR for whatever reason. So you go and look around the house, and you actually find her dead body. Why, in the ever-loving world, would you then decide, on a dime: "you know what, I'm going to protect my wife here" after all that, where she is trying to imply that you were (directly or indirectly) responsible? And also, why wouldn't you automatically believe that she -- not your 9 year old son -- killed her (unless you knew beforehand that it indeed was your nine year old son)? I respect your opinion but to me, that doesn't make enough sense. At that point, I believe JR would have protected his own butt, considering it would've appeared to him that his wife was trying to put either the blame and/or the police focus on him somehow. You keep bringing up the past: well, the maids have gone on record saying that they saw little to no love shared between PR and JR; and that they never even made love. So again, I don't see why JR would have any inclination whatsoever to protect his wife in this situation, considering it's questionable they ever really cared for one another beforehand.

We know so little about Burke and what went on behind closed doors. What if Burke said "Im going to kill her" every time he got upset with JB? What if he physically harmed her more than the one time we know about? When two adults have been together long enough, you don't have to be telepathic to know what the other would or wouldn't do. Perhaps Patsy was extremely passive, John may think she wrote the note but knows 100% she is non-violent. Burke on the other hand? John is a CEO and wouldn't be prone to make rash judgement. He would do exactly what he did, let it play out, gather information and say nothing.

 

[Userid]

^ I don't like speculating on what-ifs; I only try to go on what we know and what definitively happened. It becomes a slippery slope when you go down the what-if angle.

I think in your scenario, he would have to make a rash decision once he stumbled upon the body; he would have to choose, right then and there, that A) he knows exactly what happened (that BR killed her and that his wife was covering) and B) that he himself would join in on the cover-up. He'd have to make this extremely monumental decision within all but just an hour (that he "disappeared") to boot. It's not like he could have "slept on it" so to speak.

 

[kanzz]

I think people tend to exaggerate BR's "issues" prior to this murder. In all honesty, he wasn't really all that much different than a typical boy. But let's say he did have some "issues," I still don't see how JR would jump from "my son has issues" to "my son killed my daughter and my wife is covering it up." There would have at least been a confrontation (however mild or however ferociously) between JR and PR at some point from when JR first read the note to when the body was discovered, if he had any inkling whatsoever; or if he had found the body anytime before the official time.

You couldn't open this up to "anyone" as far as the note goes; at least not initially (although, the R's eventually would; they pretty much started to throw s..t at the wall to see what would stick the longer the investigation went on). They needed to make JBR disappear (in my belief, to dispose of the body at a later time), so they invented a kidnapping theory. The only way a kidnapping theory works, is if the kidnapper is an "insider." It's not just a handful: JR's company had many associates (and I imagine, many employees) and he did business with many other businesses. You also have the cleaning crew; the fix-it crew; etc. It's the same reason why JR only handed over the specific amount of keys that he did to police; there were multiple other keys that were not handed over and that JR simply couldn't account for, conveniently.

Here's the thing: put yourself in JR's shoes, in your scenario. You find this ransom note. You kinda think it looks like your wife's writing. You notice it's addressed strictly to you. You pretty much come to the conclusion that your wife did write it, and not only that, that she's trying to somehow imply that you personally are responsible for your daughter's disappearance. In essence, she's trying to frame you, either directly or indirectly, for being responsible. Okay, you think: maybe she's bat sh.t crazy. Maybe she's just hiding JBR for whatever reason. So you go and look around the house, and you actually find her dead body. Why, in the ever-loving world, would you then decide, on a dime: "you know what, I'm going to protect my wife here" after all that, where she is trying to imply that you were (directly or indirectly) responsible? And also, why wouldn't you automatically believe that she -- not your 9 year old son -- killed her (unless you knew beforehand that it indeed was your nine year old son)? I respect your opinion but to me, that doesn't make enough sense. At that point, I believe JR would have protected his own butt, considering it would've appeared to him that his wife was trying to put either the blame and/or the police focus on him somehow. You keep bringing up the past: well, the maids have gone on record saying that they saw little to no love shared between PR and JR; and that they never even made love. So again, I don't see why JR would have any inclination whatsoever to protect his wife in this situation, considering it's questionable they ever really cared for one another beforehand.

I think BR was the person in that house who had the most significant issues prior to this murder, and I don't find them typcial of any child - boy or girl. Scatolia is not typical. And JR likely knew more about issues than anyone else did. Maybe that's why he didn't spend much time with the kid.

I do think that JR probably confronted PR after she showed him that RN. If everbody else recognizes her handwriting - you know he did. Even if he only said, "What the hell, Patsy? This is your handwriting!" And then she lied and denied.

He was alarmed and irritated. I think that's probably why he was gruff with BR when he asked that question (audible on the 911 call). And also why she called friends to the house - to have them to lean on, because she and JR were at odds.

We have the advantage of hindsight and of reviewing the RN repeatedly. He saw the RN and was seeing red. He was confused and in a daze. He didn't pick apart every word, he just knew it was a RN, asking for money, and that his own wife had written it.

When he found JB, he was alone and afraid. Another daughter has been killed, and by whom? What the hell is happening here? What do I do now? Maybe he sat with her and grieved for a while, hoping he would be found. And when he wasn't, he went back upstairs. Arndt's request for him and FW to go looking was his final relief to find her with a friend. jmo

You know who also thinks this is basically how it went down, don't you? Kolar.

 

[Userid]

^ If Kolar thinks that, then I disagree with him personally. Scatolia isn't indicative of future murderers (that would be more along the lines of animal cruelty). Strange, yes, but again, not indicative. The golf club incident also is quite common among young siblings like that.

Your scenario is a bit different than Andreww's it seems, but again, I disagree. He wouldn't have needed to pick apart every word to know that his wife was trying to shift focus on her husband, either directly or indirectly, with being involved in the kidnapping. This was beyond obvious.