John & the Basement

[BlueCrab]

OOPS! Yes BC, you are right, he claims he went down after.
But......who saw him? Why didn't Arndt see him? His "claimed" trip in the early a.m. was stealth ,as well. How does he move, he's a LARGE man, so swiftly and secretly?

sissi,

Fleet White wasn't sneaking around the house. When he went into the basement by himself at around 6:15 AM to search for JonBenet it was no secret. It was apparently even in the police reports because Larry Schiller, who had access to the reports, documented Fleet's early search of the house when he wrote PMPT.

John Ramsey was the clandestine person. He claimed he slipped unnoticed into the basement around 10:00 AM, but no one saw him do it. And he obfuscated terribly about the timeline when asked when he went secretly into the basement. His estimates varied from 6:30 AM to 11:00 AM. Frankly, I don't think John went into the basement at all that morning while the cops were there, because I think he was likely down there one or two hours before the 911 call was made at 5:52 AM.

Here's the proof: John was tripped up during the police interviews when he said he had to move a chair from in front of the trainroom door and when he said the blue Samsonite suitcase was up against the wall and directly under the window. But that's where the chair and the suitcase had to have been BEFORE Officer French and Fleet White searched the house a little after 6:00 AM because they weren't there when French and White searched the house. So John had to have been in the basement PRIOR to French and White.

John was lying about when he was in the basement that morning.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

I think the consensus was that although it was possible the web could be either left intact or respun it wasn't likely. What would have been more telling is the color of the grass found under the grate.

tipper,

The spiderweb was unbroken, and is evidence the iron grate had not been moved from the window-well to gain entrance through the basement window.

The spiderweb was identified as belonging the Agelendidae family of spiders by Dr. Brent Opell of the Opell Laboratory of Spider Systematics at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. Dr. Opell said the Agelendidae are active only March through October of the year and would not have repaired his web had it been broken by someone removing the iron grate.

The unbroken spiderweb helps prove no intruder came through the basement window. Even if an intruder did get in through the window he wouldn't have gotten past the trainroom because, according to John Ramsey's own testimony, the trainroom door was blocked by a chair.

Insofar as the color of the grass under the iron grate, it is irrelevant because the pictures distributed by the Ramsey Spin Team were taken after the grate had been removed and replaced by the cops during the investigation.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

tipper,

The spiderweb was unbroken, and is evidence the iron grate had not been moved from the window-well to gain entrance through the basement window.

The spiderweb was identified as belonging the Agelendidae family of spiders by Dr. Brent Opell of the Opell Laboratory of Spider Systematics at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. Dr. Opell said the Agelendidae are active only March through October of the year and would not have repaired his web had it been broken by someone removing the iron grate.

The unbroken spiderweb helps prove no intruder came through the basement window. Even if an intruder did get in through the window he wouldn't have gotten past the trainroom because, according to John Ramsey's own testimony, the trainroom door was blocked by a chair.

Insofar as the color of the grass under the iron grate, it is irrelevant because the pictures distributed by the Ramsey Spin Team were taken after the grate had been removed and replaced by the cops during the investigation.

BlueCrab

I don't think an intruder came in through the grate. There were seven unlocked doors and windows available. Plus the house keys handed out like party favors.

But, as I recall from the testimony the door wasn't blocked by a chair. The doorway was blocked by a small chair. John says he moved the chair but in the photos taken the door was blocked by a drum table and Easter basket. John doesn't understand why they are there and not the chair. Did Fleet put them there? Why?

I looked in PMPT and could't find a time of 6:15 specified on p. 44 where Schiller talks about Fleet going downstairs. Is it on some other page? Did Schiller interview Fleet? If not, why would you use Schiller instead of Thomas who did talk directly to the Whites, as a source?

Added: Not that it makes a difference but I wonder if when they talked to Dr. Opell they mentioned that the web was near a broken window that opened off a very warm basement?

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't think an intruder came in through the grate. There were seven unlocked doors and windows available. Plus the house keys handed out like party favors.

But, as I recall from the testimony the door wasn't blocked by a chair. The doorway was blocked by a small chair. John says he moved the chair but in the photos taken the door was blocked by a drum table and Easter basket. John doesn't understand why they are there and not the chair. Did Fleet put them there? Why?

I looked in PMPT and could't find a time of 6:15 specified on p. 44 where Schiller talks about Fleet going downstairs. Is it on some other page? Did Schiller interview Fleet? If not, why would you use Schiller instead of Thomas who did talk directly to the Whites, as a source?

Added: Not that it makes a difference but I wonder if when they talked to Dr. Opell they mentioned that the web was near a broken window that opened off a very warm basement?

tipper,

o There were no unlocked doors and windows; that's a myth.

o The chair was in front of the trainroom door and John himself said he had to move it to get into the trainroom.

o The 6:15 AM time is an estimate. The Whites were called about 6:00 AM or a few minutes sooner, hurriedly got dressed, and drove to the Ramseys house one mile away. That means they got there about 6:10 AM. Fleet began his search several minutes after arriving and after getting briefed about what was going on. That would make it around 6:15 AM.

o I don't trust everything Steve Thomas has to say. Larry Schiller had access to all of the police reports. He didn't have to interview Fleet White.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

Coffman on Schiller:

http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02291999feedingfrenzy-bw.htm
[...]
Ann Bardach came and went from Boulder, but probably not soon enough for Lawrence Schiller, author of the recently released book, Perfect Murder, Perfect Town. According to The New York Post, Schiller tried to discourage sources from talking with her by spreading the rumor that her story had been canceled. (When I asked him about it, the author refused to address the point on the record.)

Schiller, who has a reputation for hardball tactics, has been tagged a "perfectly amoral profiteer" by author Jeffrey Toobin, who like Schiller, wrote a book about the O.J. Simpson murder case.

Schiller's book has been called "an encyclopedia" of the Ramsey case. It is the most thorough account of the investigation to be published thus far. However, from my personal knowledge of certain events depicted in the book, I believe Schiller often embroiders the truth. For instance, while he was working on the book, he quoted a passage to me. I told him that he had somewhat misquoted what Steve Thomas said to me and I advised him to change it, but he kept the inaccurate quotation in the book. Worse, Schiller's paraphrased reconstruction of my conversation with Lou Smit regarding traits of the note's writer (Page 448) is mostly Schiller's concoction.

Others had the same problem. The Ramseys' former housekeeper, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, confirms most of what Schiller writes about her, but she objects to several apparent fabrications, such as the claim on Page 561 that the authorities showed her a photograph of the Ramseys' dryer with JonBenet's sheets inside. She was never shown such a photo, she says.

Schiller relied heavily on the uncorroborated statements of Jeff Shapiro. Some statements from Hunter and Thomas that appear as verbatim quotations are actually just recollections from Shapiro.

Some of Schiller's sources cooperated with him on the condition he wouldn't use their names-a condition he violated. For instance, the Ramseys' former Boulder nanny talked to Schiller once he promised to keep her anonymous. Later, before the book was finished, she became alarmed that Schiller might violate their oral agreement. I relayed her concerns to Schiller, but he refused to take her name out of the manuscript. (Schiller declined to respond to the accusation for this story.)

Others, however, were permitted anonymity in the book. Clay Evans, columnist for The Daily Camera, hides behind the fictitious name "Cordwainer Bird" on Page 426.

Schiller has already issued an errata list, but it barely scratches the surface. Jeff Merrick, a former Access Graphics' employee who knew John Ramsey, says that "very little of what he writes about me is accurate." For instance, Merrick insists that he never threatened John Ramsey and he never claimed that the company owed him close to $118,000 or any other specific amount. He calls the numerous errors "almost comical."

 

[aussiesheila]

Here's the proof: John was tripped up during the police interviews when he said he had to move a chair from in front of the trainroom door and when he said the blue Samsonite suitcase was up against the wall and directly under the window. But that's where the chair and the suitcase had to have been BEFORE Officer French and Fleet White searched the house a little after 6:00 AM because they weren't there when French and White searched the house. So John had to have been in the basement PRIOR to French and White.

John was lying about when he was in the basement that morning.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

What do you mean, the chair and the suitcase "weren't there when French and White searched the house"?

How do you come to that conclusion?

As I understand it French did not make any comment on the chair or the suitcase and neither did Fleet White.

If you know otherwise could you please direct me to your source for information to the contrary.

 

[BlueCrab]

As I understand it French did not make any comment on the chair or the suitcase and neither did Fleet White.

aussiesheila,

That's exactly the point.

Why would French and White make a comment about the chair? The chair wasn't in the way when they opened the door to the trainroom. There was no reason to make a comment about something that wasn't there. John Ramsey was the only one who made a comment about the chair because by his own admission he was the one who moved the chair and is proof he was in the basement prior to Rick French and Fleet White.

Fleet White commented about moving the suitcase from against the wall and directly under the window and sitting it aside to look for broken glass when he searched the basement around 6:15 AM. So if the suitcase was still against the wall and directly under the window when John Ramsey saw it, then John had to have been in the basement prior to Fleet.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

aussiesheila,

That's exactly the point.

Why would French and White make a comment about the chair? The chair wasn't in the way when they opened the door to the trainroom. There was no reason to make a comment about something that wasn't there. John Ramsey was the only one who made a comment about the chair because by his own admission he was the one who moved the chair and is proof he was in the basement prior to Rick French and Fleet White.

Fleet White commented about moving the suitcase from against the wall and directly under the window and sitting it aside to look for broken glass when he searched the basement around 6:15 AM. So if the suitcase was still against the wall and directly under the window when John Ramsey saw it, then John had to have been in the basement prior to Fleet.

BlueCrab

Did they comment on the drum table and Easter basket?

 

[BlueCrab]

Did they comment on the drum table and Easter basket?

tipper,

John commented about them because the basement was cluttered with junk. But an Easter basket wouldn't prevent a door from opening; and the drum table was on the opposite side of the door, not the side that was blocked by the chair. By John's own comments during the interviews, no one could have passed through the trainroom door without first moving the chair out of the way, which he did.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

tipper,

John commented about them because the basement was cluttered with junk. But an Easter basket wouldn't prevent a door from opening; and the drum table was on the opposite side of the door, not the side that was blocked by the chair. By John's own comments during the interviews, no one could have passed through the trainroom door without first moving the chair out of the way, which he did.

BlueCrab

The way I read it is the door was already open. It was the doorway that was blocked.

15 LOU SMIT: And the door was opened or closed?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was opened.
17 LOU SMIT: The door was opened?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: correct.
19 LOU SMIT: Okay.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: In that picture, it looks like
21 -- I came in on this side of the door (INAUDIBLE)
22 and would have had to remove that drum table and
23 the Easter basket.

 

[Zman]

aussiesheila,

That's exactly the point.

Why would French and White make a comment about the chair? The chair wasn't in the way when they opened the door to the trainroom. There was no reason to make a comment about something that wasn't there. John Ramsey was the only one who made a comment about the chair because by his own admission he was the one who moved the chair and is proof he was in the basement prior to Rick French and Fleet White.

Fleet White commented about moving the suitcase from against the wall and directly under the window and sitting it aside to look for broken glass when he searched the basement around 6:15 AM. So if the suitcase was still against the wall and directly under the window when John Ramsey saw it, then John had to have been in the basement prior to Fleet.

BlueCrab

Wait I'm confused.
I thought JR had to tell the police about the open window later in the morning. Like around 11 am or so.
How could OF and FW notice a broken open window at 6:15am and yet not tell anyone about it?

 

[BlueCrab]

Wait I'm confused.
I thought JR had to tell the police about the open window later in the morning. Like around 11 am or so.
How could OF and FW notice a broken open window at 6:15am and yet not tell anyone about it?

Zman,

Good point. John said in the interviews he CLOSED the window and latched it. That's further evidence that John was in the basement BEFORE 6:00 AM because neither Officer Rick French nor Fleet White saw an open window in the basement. French searched the basement at around 6:00 AM looking for a place of entry and found none. He certainly would have noticed the open window IF IT HAD BEEN OPEN. And Fleet White picked up shards of glass under the window at about 6:15 AM and made no mention of the window being open.

John Ramsey had to have been in the basement prior to 6:00 AM if, as he admits in the interviews, he closed and latched the window.

BlueCrab

 

[Zman]

Zman,

Good point. John said in the interviews he CLOSED the window and latched it. That's further evidence that John was in the basement BEFORE 6:00 AM because neither Officer Rick French nor Fleet White saw an open window in the basement. French searched the basement at around 6:00 AM looking for a place of entry and found none. He certainly would have noticed the open window IF IT HAD BEEN OPEN. And Fleet White picked up shards of glass under the window at about 6:15 AM and made no mention of the window being open.

John Ramsey had to have been in the basement prior to 6:00 AM if, as he admits in the interviews, he closed and latched the window.

BlueCrab

You jump to conclusions BC. Nothing you mention places JR in the basement before them.

More likly OF just missed it. I have no confidence in this officer. After all he has never been inside the house before and he did miss finding a dead body in the wine cellar less then 10 feet from him.

Columbo he ain't.

I wonder if FW told him he already checked in there and if so why would OF take his word for it?

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

That's exactly the point.

Why would French and White make a comment about the chair? The chair wasn't in the way when they opened the door to the trainroom. There was no reason to make a comment about something that wasn't there. John Ramsey was the only one who made a comment about the chair because by his own admission he was the one who moved the chair and is proof he was in the basement prior to Rick French and Fleet White.

Fleet White commented about moving the suitcase from against the wall and directly under the window and sitting it aside to look for broken glass when he searched the basement around 6:15 AM. So if the suitcase was still against the wall and directly under the window when John Ramsey saw it, then John had to have been in the basement prior to Fleet.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

There is at least one other way of interpreting the what French, FW and John have said about the chair and it does not lead to the conclusion that John must have lied about what time he went down to the basement.

It is quite possible that the chair was not completely blocking the doorway at all, but just obstructing it. Thus when French and FW went down around 6 to 6:30 the chair WAS there but only PARTIALLY blocking the doorway. The chair remained in that position until 10 am when John went down precisely when he said he did, and moved the chair that he said was 'kind of blocking the doorway'.

What I am saying is that maybe French and White didn't make a comment about the chair because the whole area of the basement was so untidy that to them the chair in the doorway was not out of place relative to the state of the rest of the basement and they just pushed past the chair to get to the trainroom. When they gave their evidence they did not comment on the fact that the chair was partly blocking the doorway because to them it was not significant. John however, DID comment on the position of the chair because to him, even though the rest of the basement was in in a mess it was all how he remembered it, but the position of the chair in the doorway was not as he remembered it; to him it was out of place and so he moved it and later commented on it to the police.

As to the issue of the suitcase, I don't know what position FW claims it was standing in when he saw it and to what position he claims to have left it after he moved it. Nor do I know what position French said it was in when he saw it. If you can direct me to their statements I would very much appreciate it, thanks.

 

[Eagle1]

I'm just wondering, should the housekeeper have called someone to fix the broken window, automatically, since a lot of heat would escape through it? Should she have asked PR if she should call someone? The mess in the rest of the basement and LHP's disloyalty in criticizing her employer does seem to suggest there was a bit of confusion about the job description, to say the least.

 

[Brefie]

I'm just wondering, should the housekeeper have called someone to fix the broken window, automatically, since a lot of heat would escape through it? Should she have asked PR if she should call someone? The mess in the rest of the basement and LHP's disloyalty in criticizing her employer does seem to suggest there was a bit of confusion about the job description, to say the least.

Disloyalty? You mean after Patsy IMMEDIATELY gave her name to the police as someone who could have kidnapped her daughter? Hmmm, don't sound like any misplaced loyalty there.

I would never imagine in a million years that a person hired to do general cleaning 3 days a week (do we know how many hours??) would be responsible for having a window fixed. She was a CLEANER not a maintenance company.

 

[Tricia]

I'm just wondering, should the housekeeper have called someone to fix the broken window, automatically, since a lot of heat would escape through it? Should she have asked PR if she should call someone? The mess in the rest of the basement and LHP's disloyalty in criticizing her employer does seem to suggest there was a bit of confusion about the job description, to say the least.

A housekeeper should never call a repair person automatically because they might cost the home owner more money by just calling a number in a phone book.

It was up to Patsy or John to instruct Linda on what to do.

LHP has every right to criticize Patsy. Patsy pointed her guilty finger at Linda as the perp. That would tend to make me a bit critical of someone.

 

[Tricia]

Disloyalty? You mean after Patsy IMMEDIATELY gave her name to the police as someone who could have kidnapped her daughter? Hmmm, don't sound like any misplaced loyalty there.

I would never imagine in a million years that a person hired to do general cleaning 3 days a week (do we know how many hours??) would be responsible for having a window fixed. She was a CLEANER not a maintenance company.

Whoops, sorry Brefie, I didn't see your post. Just read eagle1's post and my fingers started to fly.

What Brefie said!!!

 

[tipper]

A housekeeper should never call a repair person automatically because they might cost the home owner more money by just calling a number in a phone book.

It was up to Patsy or John to instruct Linda on what to do.

LHP has every right to criticize Patsy. Patsy pointed her guilty finger at Linda as the perp. That would tend to make me a bit critical of someone.

Didn't Patsy ask Merv to fix the window?

Also - From the LHP either or thread:
Under these circumstances they would be crazy to not give her name to the police. If your child was kidnapped for ransom would you hold back the name of someone who fit the profile the police were asking about? Even if you thought the possibility was farfetched?

Three books - three different shadings of the same conversation.
The police are asking about possible people/motives.

DOI p 19 "Linda Arndt asks is there is anybody who might be upset with me - personally or othrwise? Anybody who has threatened me." [He mentions thinking of Jeff Merrick and their falling-out. Also calling Gary Merriman (Human Resources at Access) for names of recently fired employees. All very sensible. Then it goes on...] "The police ask Patsy these same questions about who might have been angry or acting strangely, and she begins to think about our cleaning lady. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had called Patsy a couple of days before Christmas, very distraught and in tears. Linda said her sister, who is also her landlord, was going to evict her if she didn't come up with past-due rent. She asked Patsy if she could borrow twenty-five hundred dollars to cover it. "

PMPT p11. "Det. Arndt began questioning John Ramsey about whether he could think of anyone who might be involved in the kidnapping. Ramsey gave the names of several ex-employees of his company, Access Graphics. Patsy Ramsey, who was sitting with Rev. Hoverstock in a corner was at times confused and dazed. She mentioned to Arndt that her housekeeper, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had asked to borrow some money just a few days before. Linda had a key to the house and had major money problems."

ST p26 "When detectives asked the parents who might be responsible for the disappearance of JonBenet, Patsy promptly gave the name of her housekeeper for the past two years.

 

[why_nutt]

I would never imagine in a million years that a person hired to do general cleaning 3 days a week (do we know how many hours??) would be responsible for having a window fixed. She was a CLEANER not a maintenance company.

That is right. People, and specifically Patsy, use the phrase "fix the window" as if it was something that could be done by just waving one's hands at the broken pane and willing it to be fixed. But reality intrudes. A broken window is not like a broken cup; you cannot just get a tube of glue and stick the pieces together, or find a screwdriver and screws or a hammer and nails and bang it all back into one piece. To fix the pane, the window would have to have been removed from the frame, which would mean taking it off its hinges. How were the hinges attached? Nails? Screws? If screws, then were they flathead screws or phillips head? If you only have a phillips-head screwdriver, you are not necessarily going to get anywhere trying to remove a flathead screw, and if nails were used, a screwdriver is useless when you really need a hammer. Was the hinge painted over? If so, this would mean scraping away the paint around the nails or screws and the hinge plate itself. Was there an appropriate scraper in the Ramsey toolbox, or would the person doing the fixing have to bring their own?

So, let us suppose the window is now off and ready to have the glass removed. Oh, wait. One cannot just break the remaining glass, remove it, and put in a new pane. Oh, and wait some more. Panes do not come in just one universal size. So what has to be done now? The remaining glass in the pane has to be removed carefully so that a replacement can be laid in place. This requires scraping out the old glazing compound and removing the old glazing points, the small metal pieces that are embedded in the wood and hold the glass. Is there a putty tool or a glazier's tool around to use? How about some needle-nosed pliers to remove the glazier's points? These items are not normally part of the cleaning maid's kit.

Let us say that somehow, magically, the glazing compound has been scraped away, the glazier's points removed. Time to get out the bottle of linseed oil or paint primer (to keep the cleaned wood from soaking up the oil in the new glazing compound) from the old purse. Hmm? What is that? Housemaids never normally carry paint primer or linseed oil around like it was hand sanitizer? For shame.

Has anybody produced a glass cutter to make that cut-to-size pane of glass yet? The window is not going to cut its own glass, you know.

Somehow, magically, a properly-sized pane appears. It is laid into the wooden frame. New glazing points, which, by the way, nobody yet has obtained, are laid around the edge and pushed into the wooden frame to hold the glass in place. Then the fresh glazing compound, which, by the way, nobody has also yet obtained, is rolled into a thin string and pushed into the frame. Clean everything up and collect a check from the Ramseys.

I think this is not such a viable scenario.